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Live as a survivalist or die?

Would you want to survive the collapse of society

  • Yes, survive at all cost

    Votes: 34 82.9%

  • No, better off dead.

    Votes: 7 17.1%
  • Total voters
    41
notquiteright said:
I remember a survivalist fantasy book where a huge wave blankets the left coast, massive earthquakes, etc. One character's 'Alamo' was occupied before he could get there. A rogue Army unit gathers desperate folks to it's banner as it sweeps across the countryside, growing and needing to constantly pillage to keep itself fed.

What weapons to drag where has always been a good debate. a 22 works well on small critters but if some determined 2 footed kind want to mix it up the 22 lacks dependability. You might be hauling a lot of small game ammo to another group.

I did enough time under a ruck to think much can be hauled very far for very long by anyone not in peak condition.

My thought on the bugout compound is unless it has a competent permanent party and already stocked so the arriving folks just need to bring a bare minimum, cuts transport down and flexibility of the trekkers up, it most likely will not be a refuge for you when you need it most.

These situations remind me of that 'War Games' movie where before launching an actual strike the computer runs through every conceivable scenario only to conclude there is no winner.
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Friends have an off grid place with its.own wells in the high desert near here.

Tucked away 7+ miles down the dirt roads in the apparent middle of nowhere.

Stocked and armed.

But just on general principles. They like being self sufficient. "Prepping" was just a good idea that paid off when they were snowed in for six weeks.

The worlds trajectory kind of freaked me out when I was like 9, and I spent the next twenty plus years preparing myself for the apocalypse. Just about got that Heinlein list down, plus a bunch of stuff thats not in there.

Nature or some bastard could take the world we live in down. Our society is far more fragile than most people think, IMO.

But I think odds are good that enough would come together and put things back into some kind of order.

The ruthless bastards are only a rifle.scope away. Cut off the head a few times and the "troops" will lose cohesion. Rogue military units would be the worst case scenario.

But I think we'd make it. (Humanity, that is)
 
See some of these things to me seem like a waste of time. I've had the magnesium blocks, flint strikers, bows, all that fun stuff. But in reality I don't take any of that stuff with me in to the woods. When I head off on the AT I have two mini-bics. One is in my pocket, the other is in my pack. I don't buy waterproof matches either. These lighters are cheap. I buy a whole card of them and put them everywhere. There will be plenty of time to practice rubbing sticks together later.

As for the ammo as long as you are not going to be target shooting a little goes a long way. My 30cal ammo comes in 440 round spam cans. How many deer you thinknyou might need in a year? 10? You've potentialls got enough for 44 years from one can. And nobody gets one can. They're about $80 a can. 1000 rounds of 22 can cost as little as $40. The stuff I like is about $110 per 1000. If you have friends and a stable community you don't need much. Of course once you start buyingnit there's no such thing as too much.
 
What if...? said:
Friends have an off grid place with its.own wells in the high desert near here. Tucked away 7+ miles down the dirt roads in the apparent middle of nowhere. Stocked and armed. But just on general principles. They like being self sufficient. "Prepping" was just a good idea that paid off when they were snowed in for six weeks. The worlds trajectory kind of freaked me out when I was like 9, and I spent the next twenty plus years preparing myself for the apocalypse. Just about got that Heinlein list down, plus a bunch of stuff thats not in there. Nature or some bastard could take the world we live in down. Our society is far more fragile than most people think, IMO. But I think odds are good that enough would come together and put things back into some kind of order. The ruthless bastards are only a rifle.scope away. Cut off the head a few times and the "troops" will lose cohesion. Rogue military units would be the worst case scenario.

But I think we'd make it. (Humanity, that is)
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This is a classic- out of the way, a not very hospitable land, energy self sufficient and well armed.

I love a scoped rifle. You can hit a man in the head 6 football fields away, THAT can make 'em pause for a sec and rethink the situation.

We had a saying in the Infantry back in the day- If it can be seen it can be hit, if it can be hit it can be killed.

But we had another one- it aint the bastard you see, it is the two flanking you that you don't see that puts the crimp in your military career.

A position's defense boils down to manpower on alert, sides to be defended and how well sited the strongpoints are. Triangular compounds reduce manpower requirements but the individual strongpoints must be well sited with good fields of fire and capable of a much broader arc.

So how many people are on duty in the wee hours? Do they have the weapons to hold off a night attack until the rest of the compound can awaken and man positions? it is always a bad idea to expect the bad guys to do what you want them to do.

We used to say, the enemy has a vote too.

Now you mention a list of stuff you figure you need to survive. Is this stuff pre-positioned out at the high desert location or are you hauling it out there?

Just out of curiosity what sort of things do you feel are required? What does it weigh?

The various plans are always interesting, and great learning tools.
 
notquiteright said:
You have got my attention. I get into 'what if' discussions all the time. My thought is if one side is armed with 22s the firefight won't last long. The heavy nod to 45 cal ammo seems counterproductive to the weight issue. I carry a 45, love it but the ammo is within 50 grains of the weight of my go to rifle, the 308. To each their own of course but the 308 reaches farther with more accuracy so seems a better defense and hunting choice. Your two seem too light on one end and too heavy on the other. I'd go for more streamlined, a middle weight with a lot more reach to the punch.

Anywho I'm sure you have weighed these packs you describe, what do they come in around? I was light Infantry, just curious how much you intent to hump how far. Another question I have is how long is 'a good while in the mountains'?

I must admit I have not been in Detroit but hadn't heard it had become a Mad Max movie. damn lamestream media.... ;)
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Don't miss the point. I don't think it is going to come down to a lead on lead confrontation. If it does Im thinking the conflict would be far more likely within 100 yards, not in excess. If it is in excess of 100 yards, my ass is finding and shooting from cover. The 45 Carbine is plenty accurate and that it is the same munitions as the handgun means I don't have to carry 22, 45 AND 308 ammo. Yes, the 308 is a better defensive AND hunting weapon...but for weight and mobility...I'll stick with the 22 and 45 combo.

As for how long a good while is in the mountains...I reckon that would be as long as it needs to be. Kinda tough to know considering the circumstances we are talking about. I raised 2 Eagle scouts and taught a whole lot more. I always used to tell them "I don't so much mind it if you ever get lost in the mountains, but if when they find you you don't have a structure built with some form of running water, Ima snatch that eagle patch off your shoulder". Im comfortable in the mountains. Ive spent lots of time in the mountains. Ive done summer and winter survival camps in the mountains. My boys have spent entire summers in the mountains. If **** gets desperate amongst polite society, personally...Id rather be there than here. How far we got, how far we could go on 4 wheels...that all depends on the circumstances. We are already country...so we are halfway there. We have enough camping supplies and materials at any time at our home to support 4-5 families. Just who we are.

And I want to stress...I DONT think it is likely. The mobile part...that's just not much of a stretch for us.
 
Dickieboy said:
A) The newer carbon arrows are much more durable than the old aluminums.

B)In honing my (and others) skills I/we handmade bows using simple hand tools; axe, knife, sand/rocks (for sanding) and sinew for strings. We fashioned arrows from river cane, fletched with turkey feathers and tipped with knapped flint heads…one of my ‘crew’ was successful in harvesting a deer but the rest of us lost interest…but we ALL (4) did make weapons that were deadly enough...when the bullets/powder runs out one must be prepared...it still beats a spear.
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Im sure they are better today than when I used to bowhunt. All things considered...I'll stick to a rifle.
 
VanceMack said:
Don't miss the point. I don't think it is going to come down to a lead on lead confrontation. If it does Im thinking the conflict would be far more likely within 100 yards, not in excess. If it is in excess of 100 yards, my ass is finding and shooting from cover. The 45 Carbine is plenty accurate and that it is the same munitions as the handgun means I don't have to carry 22, 45 AND 308 ammo. Yes, the 308 is a better defensive AND hunting weapon...but for weight and mobility...I'll stick with the 22 and 45 combo.

As for how long a good while is in the mountains...I reckon that would be as long as it needs to be. Kinda tough to know considering the circumstances we are talking about. I raised 2 Eagle scouts and taught a whole lot more. I always used to tell them "I don't so much mind it if you ever get lost in the mountains, but if when they find you you don't have a structure built with some form of running water, Ima snatch that eagle patch off your shoulder". Im comfortable in the mountains. Ive spent lots of time in the mountains. Ive done summer and winter survival camps in the mountains. My boys have spent entire summers in the mountains. If **** gets desperate amongst polite society, personally...Id rather be there than here. How far we got, how far we could go on 4 wheels...that all depends on the circumstances. We are already country...so we are halfway there. We have enough camping supplies and materials at any time at our home to support 4-5 families. Just who we are.

And I want to stress...I DONT think it is likely. The mobile part...that's just not much of a stretch for us.
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Oh I am totally onboard with it isn't going to happen.

I was just curious about wieght and time spent in the wilderness. I did training in the mountains in the winter, I can honestly say without packed in food I am not surviving long after the last MRE is gone.

When it comes to weapons and ammo I'd look at it like this, a broke down 22 and ammo for small game, a 308 or I guess a 223 for hunting and defense at the ready and a 45 with a very small amount of ammo for personal defense for the idiot time i wandered too far away from a rifle. ;)

But I am beginning to see your circumstance, you are not coming out of a high density area, you will not be helping restore order but rather hide and wait for others to do so.... or not.

That is a trait I have noticed that runs through most survivalists- a hell with everyone else me and mind are going to sit this one out and wait til someone else takes out the trash. not a slam, just noticing.
 
notquiteright said:
Oh I am totally onboard with it isn't going to happen.

I was just curious about wieght and time spent in the wilderness. I did training in the mountains in the winter, I can honestly say without packed in food I am not surviving long after the last MRE is gone.

When it comes to weapons and ammo I'd look at it like this, a broke down 22 and ammo for small game, a 308 or I guess a 223 for hunting and defense at the ready and a 45 with a very small amount of ammo for personal defense for the idiot time i wandered too far away from a rifle. ;)

But I am beginning to see your circumstance, you are not coming out of a high density area, you will not be helping restore order but rather hide and wait for others to do so.... or not.

That is a trait I have noticed that runs through most survivalists- a hell with everyone else me and mind are going to sit this one out and wait til someone else takes out the trash. not a slam, just noticing.
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I don't take it as a slam. No...I don't see a whole lot of profit in engaging my family in a civil war. Don't even care to know what that looks like. If it were to ever reach that point, law, order, constitution...lets just say I trust people. I trust them to act on their human nature.

I think it far more likely in population centers you would see some form of forced "martial law"...for the 'good' of the people. No. I don't really like how that looks.

Accepting that neither of us see it as a likely scenario, what is your world vision of how it might all end up?
 
sawyerloggingon said:
I am reading a book by James Wesley Rawles, Patriot. It is about the collapse of society and a group of survivalist fighting off roving gangs of looters. The picture he paints is very dark with prisons emptied out and no rule of law. The survivalist stay locked in a steel shuttered house filled with food and water and watch the world around them collapse in riots, rape robbery and murder. I just started the book and it may have a happy ending but it makes me wonder if things got that bad would I even want to survive. So I ask the question of you guys, survive or die, which is preferable?

By the way James has an interesting survival blog. SurvivalBlog.com
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I would rather die when given the choice, but it all depends on my mental state. If society is destroyed beyond repair, all of my family are dead, and there is radiation and violence everywhere (so no real work beyond stealing, and no decent food left); then I definitely would on a matter of ethics and principle. Better to be dead, than betray everything my former life stood for. Unless there are any non-lethal Vault-Tec vaults around.
 
I would attempt to live as a survivalist if I could learn the necessary skills quickly enough. I don't imagine I would enjoy the existence though, the idea of killing other people (which would likely be a requirement for survival) does not sit well with me morally at all, but I would do it if they were an aggressor and I was in a situation where I had to save my life. Life is still better than death.
 
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It's important to learn these skills and have your supplies before anything happens. And going thru CERT or CERN puts you in contact with a lot of like minded people. If you plan to go it alone you have got to be VERY well trained and have a lot of supplies. But if you are in a group like this you will find people who will want to team up which is far better. There are quite a few over the top preppers in our group, and talk of defensible positions and such can certainly be a little unnerving. But if things get serious it's good to know who you can team with.

Weapons:

It varies depending on where you are. I would prefer to have a heavy hitter, but the chances you will need that range and power is subjective. Where I live getting a sightline of over 100 yards is tough. Lot's of terrain, lots of trees. I have a well built 30 cal bolt rifle but I wouldn't want to carry it and the ammo. If you can only have one weapon, hands down the single most useful tool for survival is a 12 gauge shotgun, and they are cheap. I got mine with a collapsible stock for $300 and there are all kinds of rounds from small game to supersonic slugs and some nasty defense rounds, If you are going pistol/ rifle combination get something that uses the same ammo and mags. Someone mentioned a 45 pistol and carbine (probably Mech Tech), that's a good choice. I have a 9mm Glock and a 9mm Keltec Sub2000 (specifically listed in the new assault weapon ban) that will both take the 33 round mags, and the carbine weighs 4 pounds. With the longer barrel length the ballistics on the 9mm round looks more like a .357 SIG. Range is 100- 150 yards.

On weight:

Go light and walk with it. You'd be surprised how much the weight can add up and how hard it is to cover ground with it. My 3 day hiking pack here in the Appalachians weighs 17 pounds, we don't consider it a serious day of hiking until after 16 miles, and that is up and over mountains. Hence the lightweight weapons. I'm not lugging 20 pounds of weapon and ammo. But the most important thing is practice, practice, practice.

I hope I'm not coming off as that crazy paranoid guy,, I don't see myself that way. It's an advantage of being in a group like this, there is always someone more extreme than you are. My duties in this group are medic and scout because I can cover serious ground in a hurry and I have extensive wilderness medical training. I'm much more concerned with helping other people than taking on armed troops. We have those guys too. We'll let them handle the big guns, I'm glad they are on my side. But if you don't know them ahead of time you will be SOL. So don't look at it as a drastic life change, it's all about baby steps. Take a class or two, make some friends and you will feel better about your position every day. Emergencies are just problems you haven't planned for. Once you have gained a couple of skills you will be much more secure whether you are facing a zombie apocalypse or just a communication breakdown that renders your ATM card inoperable. When I see a car accident I don't wish they will be ok, I grab my med bag and make sure they are. You know what the most common disaster most people will see is? Losing a job. Most people don't have more than a week worth of food on hand, and with no income that can be extremely stressful. If you had a month of food saved it's no longer an emergency, and rather than panic you can sit down, relax, and come up with a better plan because you are not trying to put out fires at the same time.
 
Looks like we may need to expedite our preparations...
Previous Snake years have been marked by the September 11, 2001 terror strikes that killed nearly 3,000 people, the crushing of the 1989 Tiananmen pro-democracy protests and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941.

The 1929 stock market plunge that heralded the Great Depression also occurred in a snake year.
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Asian astrologers warn of stormy Year of Snake - FRANCE 24
 
tech30528 said:
It's important to learn these skills and have your supplies before anything happens. And going thru CERT or CERN puts you in contact with a lot of like minded people. If you plan to go it alone you have got to be VERY well trained and have a lot of supplies. But if you are in a group like this you will find people who will want to team up which is far better. There are quite a few over the top preppers in our group, and talk of defensible positions and such can certainly be a little unnerving. But if things get serious it's good to know who you can team with.

Weapons:

It varies depending on where you are. I would prefer to have a heavy hitter, but the chances you will need that range and power is subjective. Where I live getting a sightline of over 100 yards is tough. Lot's of terrain, lots of trees. I have a well built 30 cal bolt rifle but I wouldn't want to carry it and the ammo. If you can only have one weapon, hands down the single most useful tool for survival is a 12 gauge shotgun, and they are cheap. I got mine with a collapsible stock for $300 and there are all kinds of rounds from small game to supersonic slugs and some nasty defense rounds, If you are going pistol/ rifle combination get something that uses the same ammo and mags. Someone mentioned a 45 pistol and carbine (probably Mech Tech), that's a good choice. I have a 9mm Glock and a 9mm Keltec Sub2000 (specifically listed in the new assault weapon ban) that will both take the 33 round mags, and the carbine weighs 4 pounds. With the longer barrel length the ballistics on the 9mm round looks more like a .357 SIG. Range is 100- 150 yards.

On weight:

Go light and walk with it. You'd be surprised how much the weight can add up and how hard it is to cover ground with it. My 3 day hiking pack here in the Appalachians weighs 17 pounds, we don't consider it a serious day of hiking until after 16 miles, and that is up and over mountains. Hence the lightweight weapons. I'm not lugging 20 pounds of weapon and ammo. But the most important thing is practice, practice, practice.

I hope I'm not coming off as that crazy paranoid guy,, I don't see myself that way. It's an advantage of being in a group like this, there is always someone more extreme than you are. My duties in this group are medic and scout because I can cover serious ground in a hurry and I have extensive wilderness medical training. I'm much more concerned with helping other people than taking on armed troops. We have those guys too. We'll let them handle the big guns, I'm glad they are on my side. But if you don't know them ahead of time you will be SOL. So don't look at it as a drastic life change, it's all about baby steps. Take a class or two, make some friends and you will feel better about your position every day. Emergencies are just problems you haven't planned for. Once you have gained a couple of skills you will be much more secure whether you are facing a zombie apocalypse or just a communication breakdown that renders your ATM card inoperable. When I see a car accident I don't wish they will be ok, I grab my med bag and make sure they are. You know what the most common disaster most people will see is? Losing a job. Most people don't have more than a week worth of food on hand, and with no income that can be extremely stressful. If you had a month of food saved it's no longer an emergency, and rather than panic you can sit down, relax, and come up with a better plan because you are not trying to put out fires at the same time.
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Survivalist, preppers or whatever you want to call them get portrayed as nutty people by our media but you sound very reasonable and lucid. I keep saying I am not a prepper because I don't spend alot of time or energy thinking about it but I did choose a place to live that is extremely remote (3 miles from my nearest neighbor) and one of the many reasons why I chose this location was I feel very safe here. The collapse of society and the potential for roving bands of paramilitary type looting gangs has always been at the back of my mind. Really though I think it is at the back of everyones mind because it seems like most people that visit my place for the first time say something like "can I come live with you when the s*** hits the fan". They say it jokingly but it shows me most everyone thinks about this scenario at least a bit. I have stocked up on guns and ammo but I should pay more attention to a food supply of at least 6 months or so not to mention other essentials-luxury's like toilet paper. Hopefully my remote location with only one way in would keep me isolated from takers or at least make me at the very end of the list, especially after I fall a bunch of trees across my road.:lol:
 
I'm out of here. :peace
 
sawyerloggingon said:
Survivalist, preppers or whatever you want to call them get portrayed as nutty people by our media but you sound very reasonable and lucid. I keep saying I am not a prepper because I don't spend alot of time or energy thinking about it but I did choose a place to live that is extremely remote (3 miles from my nearest neighbor) and one of the many reasons why I chose this location was I feel very safe here. The collapse of society and the potential for roving bands of paramilitary type looting gangs has always been at the back of my mind. Really though I think it is at the back of everyones mind because it seems like most people that visit my place for the first time say something like "can I come live with you when the s*** hits the fan". They say it jokingly but it shows me most everyone thinks about this scenario at least a bit. I have stocked up on guns and ammo but I should pay more attention to a food supply of at least 6 months or so not to mention other essentials-luxury's like toilet paper. Hopefully my remote location with only one way in would keep me isolated from takers or at least make me at the very end of the list, especially after I fall a bunch of trees across my road.:lol:
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Im not a 'prepper, but I am 'prepared'. I dont know that there is any place int eh country where you might need to bug out for at least a little while. We always keep the vehicles above a half a tank and have gas on hand. We have most of our camping supplies (as well as water and easy prep food, extra clothes, and some camo bags with some 'extras') in the garage in secured bins to where literally I could back the truck into the garage, slide bins into the bed, throw a few extra propane bottle and gas cans in the truck, grab packs and sidearms and be mobile in 5-10 minutes. Our preparation is as much for an earthquake or some other form of natural disaster as it is the collapse of society.
 
tech30528 said:
Living here in the mountains we tend to be pretty well stocked. An ice storm can take out power for days and we live up on a mountain ridge. It's 1/2 mile to a paved road and when the leaves are on the trees you can't see another house. Right now we can see one. Around here there were still militias around until just a few years ago. Since then we have all shifted to Civilian Emergency Response Teams and work in conjunction with FEMA and GEMA. We get a lot of training and even some equipment from them for free. Basically if there is a disaster they call us and then assume an administrative role and we handle the feet on the ground stuff. The range of things you can learn in a group like this is amazing. I have a food preservation class this Sunday. There is also an instructor level pistol shoot but I can't be in two places at once so I'll miss that one.

Listen, if you are at all concerned about any of this stuff find out about CERT or CERN teams in your area. You don't have to be "that guy", you can pick and choose what you want to do, but it never hurts to know "that guy". I don't really worry about societal collapse locally, I have about 100 friends in the county who are interested in everybody behaving themselves and getting thru it together.
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Three things that I will champion
team effort(government and private working together)
education(training and communications)
prevention( the first two)
and I see this in spades here.
 
There are all kinds of crazy theories about what could happen, but there are a lot of real life things too. For instance I have a basic bag for my family, one of those old monster military duffles that has clothes, food, water, things like that. With where we live, "Hey, the woods are on fire. Get in the truck" is a real possibility. Having what you need right at hand could save your life. Keep in mind societal collapse can be local. How about those people on the east coast who had that hurricane come thru? I heard one on the radio complaining that FEMA didn't have enough water on hand and had to get more. Who doesn't have a water filter? There was water everywhere! And it's not like it snuck up on them, they knew for a week it was coming. These idiots are the dangerous ones. They have nothing, know nothing and have a low ability to be able to think on their feet. I won't go in to how I suspect these people vote, I'm just saying a month after a major disaster conservatives might just be a super majority. ;)

BTW if you have the idea of hitting the road and fleeing the city for the mountains, keep in mind those of us already in the mountains will have to protect the supplies we have. Have a plan and be in contact with the folks who are expecting you. In our county if you don't have a local license plate and we can't contact your huckleberry you won't be getting in. Now, when the armed CERT guy comes to your car door and asks who you are going to see and we can verify you are expected you are golden. Welcome aboard. But short of that no matter how nice a guy you are you are a hazard to the community.
 
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VanceMack said:
I don't take it as a slam. No...I don't see a whole lot of profit in engaging my family in a civil war. Don't even care to know what that looks like. If it were to ever reach that point, law, order, constitution...lets just say I trust people. I trust them to act on their human nature. I think it far more likely in population centers you would see some form of forced "martial law"...for the 'good' of the people. No. I don't really like how that looks. Accepting that neither of us see it as a likely scenario, what is your world vision of how it might all end up?
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Oh I don't think there ever is a profit fighting for something, sacrifice for sure, but no profit. It is the classic question be it fighting to create a new nation or restoring law and order after a huge disaster versus pulling back and waiting for the dust to settle.

I dunno about human nature, on the one hand so many decry the 'taker' mentality and the slow slide to chaos many think will cause this collapse of order, yet somehow believe in human nature. I guess the idea is those who survive and manage to cobble together some sort of order will be of a certain mindset and that human nature is what it meant.

How it all ends up-
I guess a lot depends on what started the mess. I see many collapses with only the cockroaches surviving. many diseases leaving so few survivors civilization is firmly set back. Funny thing about plagues is depending on how it is transmitted survivalists might be more at risk than more 'urban' folks. The Black Plague wiped out many isolated villages, got past guards at the town gate who turned away human carriers but of course couldn't stop rats. rather large population concentrations survived- monasteries among the most common due to better hygiene, cleanliness and grain storage so rats and fleas were not so common.

My backround is grunt. For me numbers count, a base to operate from matters and a mix of skills in the group an asset. I can see certain farm communities being strong points for what is left of civilization to cling to. These days crops like corn, and wheat are stored in elevators until right before the new harvest- highest price is right before harvest and many elevators keep at least half capacity in old crop to take advantage of that pricing. So these places will have a strong bargaining chip in trade, gaining 'troops' for defense and paying outlying farmstead outposts to be manned as an outer perimeter and guard stations to help protect the cropland. these communities have rather healthy amounts of fuel in storage vs the population due to the needs of modern agriculture so that is a plus. The farm supply stores have barbed wire and T-posts to help fortify the town, small welding/repair shops to fabricate fixtures for the strongpoints and perhaps a few 'tin-clad' vehicles.

The ability both in supplies and equipment to build fortifications, supplies to last through a lean time for food, a cadre population with a strong attachment to the town and surrounding areas, the ability to sort through refugees to decide who can help in the town defense...

Politically I see a far less democratic form but still not 'martial', more like an EYE-talian city state where a gaggle of rich old men and their families run the town with outlying 'barons' formed from the larger farmer clans we have around here. There is a grandfather with at least 3 of his sons living within eyesight of each other out there, a nice repair shop and rather large grain storage, equipment to build strongpoints, local fuel storage....

ahhh not that I have given this much thought ya understand... ;)
 
notquiteright said:
This is a classic- out of the way, a not very hospitable land, energy self sufficient and well armed.

I love a scoped rifle. You can hit a man in the head 6 football fields away, THAT can make 'em pause for a sec and rethink the situation.

We had a saying in the Infantry back in the day- If it can be seen it can be hit, if it can be hit it can be killed.

But we had another one- it aint the bastard you see, it is the two flanking you that you don't see that puts the crimp in your military career.

A position's defense boils down to manpower on alert, sides to be defended and how well sited the strongpoints are. Triangular compounds reduce manpower requirements but the individual strongpoints must be well sited with good fields of fire and capable of a much broader arc.

So how many people are on duty in the wee hours? Do they have the weapons to hold off a night attack until the rest of the compound can awaken and man positions? it is always a bad idea to expect the bad guys to do what you want them to do.

We used to say, the enemy has a vote too.

Now you mention a list of stuff you figure you need to survive. Is this stuff pre-positioned out at the high desert location or are you hauling it out there?

Just out of curiosity what sort of things do you feel are required? What does it weigh?

The various plans are always interesting, and great learning tools.
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Its likely we won't be found at all. We're down in a valley between two high points, flat desert all around. Decomposed granite rockpiles. Think Joshua Tree.

"Roads" out there are random and unmarked. Vehicles throw dust, even moving slowly.

Everybody would just take cover up in the rocks and make it very unpleasant for any invaders. Massive terrain advantage. A group with military weapons would be a problem. But starving hordes of city dwellers would NEVER come out there in the first place. No open water anywhere. No city power wells would be functioning either. Ours are solar powered and there's over a thousand gallons in tanks.

Last I checked there was at least 6 months of food. Plus they know what native plants to eat and keep chickens. Rabbits are plentiful, but have a parasite. Good for the dogs at least in a pinch. Deer are in the mountains nearby. The residents are vegetarian, but not vegan, and of the "seven pounds of grain for a pound of beef" variety. They'll eat meat if thats all there is.

It's not a "survivalist" group. But smart and possessing a broad skill base.

We could do a lot worse.

We just need to get there. If there's warning we'll take our RV. If not, the foot route is already mapped. It would suck, over a hundred miles. That's why we keep our ear to the ground. I'd rather bolt too soon than have to walk. We can always come home from a false alarm.
 
tech30528 said:
There are all kinds of crazy theories about what could happen, but there are a lot of real life things too. For instance I have a basic bag for my family, one of those old monster military duffles that has clothes, food, water, things like that. With where we live, "Hey, the woods are on fire. Get in the truck" is a real possibility. Having what you need right at hand could save your life. Keep in mind societal collapse can be local. How about those people on the east coast who had that hurricane come thru? I heard one on the radio complaining that FEMA didn't have enough water on hand and had to get more. Who doesn't have a water filter? There was water everywhere! And it's not like it snuck up on them, they knew for a week it was coming. These idiots are the dangerous ones. They have nothing, know nothing and have a low ability to be able to think on their feet. I won't go in to how I suspect these people vote, I'm just saying a month after a major disaster conservatives might just be a super majority. ;)

BTW if you have the idea of hitting the road and fleeing the city for the mountains, keep in mind those of us already in the mountains will have to protect the supplies we have. Have a plan and be in contact with the folks who are expecting you. In our county if you don't have a local license plate and we can't contact your huckleberry you won't be getting in. Now, when the armed CERT guy comes to your car door and asks who you are going to see and we can verify you are expected you are golden. Welcome aboard. But short of that no matter how nice a guy you are you are a hazard to the community.
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You hit the nail on the head. A lot of people I know do not and will not prepare for even a local disaster, Tornado, Snow or ice Storms, Etc let alone if some major issue occurred. They believe they will just pack up the truck and head into the woods. Only problem is somebody likely owns that land or it is inhabited by another group already. If they don't know you are coming and do not know you it may be trouble. I try to tell them to spend a couple hours just making a plan. Buy a pack for each one in the group and stock it accordingly. It is easy for people who spend time outdoors already since we already have most of the stuff needed. Lots of good info out there on the subject and plenty of it is online. No excuse not to be prepared.
 
tech30528 said:
There are all kinds of crazy theories about what could happen, but there are a lot of real life things too. For instance I have a basic bag for my family, one of those old monster military duffles that has clothes, food, water, things like that. With where we live, "Hey, the woods are on fire. Get in the truck" is a real possibility. Having what you need right at hand could save your life. Keep in mind societal collapse can be local. How about those people on the east coast who had that hurricane come thru? I heard one on the radio complaining that FEMA didn't have enough water on hand and had to get more. Who doesn't have a water filter? There was water everywhere! And it's not like it snuck up on them, they knew for a week it was coming. These idiots are the dangerous ones. They have nothing, know nothing and have a low ability to be able to think on their feet. I won't go in to how I suspect these people vote, I'm just saying a month after a major disaster conservatives might just be a super majority. ;)

BTW if you have the idea of hitting the road and fleeing the city for the mountains, keep in mind those of us already in the mountains will have to protect the supplies we have. Have a plan and be in contact with the folks who are expecting you. In our county if you don't have a local license plate and we can't contact your huckleberry you won't be getting in. Now, when the armed CERT guy comes to your car door and asks who you are going to see and we can verify you are expected you are golden. Welcome aboard. But short of that no matter how nice a guy you are you are a hazard to the community.
Click to expand...

very good points- do want to point out a couple of things. What actually happened is the local water sources are to provide immediate supply with FEMA then hiring other sources to bring in more water. FEMA doesn't keep millions of gallons stored anywhere. Some tried to use the contracts FEMA put out for more water as a lack of preparedness.

Next point is the use of most water filters on urban water sources. These water filters filter out certain organisms, dirt and the like but they do not filter out chemicals. Urban water can easily contain many chemicals not found in a mountain stream. I'm not sure I'd be trying to filter and drink it.

There might very well be more 'conservatives' after a huge disaster that devastates large population centers but if they drink a lot of city runoff through water filter straws their kids might have two heads but still only one vote! ;)
 
Heaven help our nation if ever there is a nationwide disaster and the conservatives are a "super majority".
We need a balance between the conservatives and the liberals, but with both willing to work together.
well....dream on...
 
notquiteright said:
Oh I don't think there ever is a profit fighting for something, sacrifice for sure, but no profit. It is the classic question be it fighting to create a new nation or restoring law and order after a huge disaster versus pulling back and waiting for the dust to settle.

I dunno about human nature, on the one hand so many decry the 'taker' mentality and the slow slide to chaos many think will cause this collapse of order, yet somehow believe in human nature. I guess the idea is those who survive and manage to cobble together some sort of order will be of a certain mindset and that human nature is what it meant.

How it all ends up-
I guess a lot depends on what started the mess. I see many collapses with only the cockroaches surviving. many diseases leaving so few survivors civilization is firmly set back. Funny thing about plagues is depending on how it is transmitted survivalists might be more at risk than more 'urban' folks. The Black Plague wiped out many isolated villages, got past guards at the town gate who turned away human carriers but of course couldn't stop rats. rather large population concentrations survived- monasteries among the most common due to better hygiene, cleanliness and grain storage so rats and fleas were not so common.

My backround is grunt. For me numbers count, a base to operate from matters and a mix of skills in the group an asset. I can see certain farm communities being strong points for what is left of civilization to cling to. These days crops like corn, and wheat are stored in elevators until right before the new harvest- highest price is right before harvest and many elevators keep at least half capacity in old crop to take advantage of that pricing. So these places will have a strong bargaining chip in trade, gaining 'troops' for defense and paying outlying farmstead outposts to be manned as an outer perimeter and guard stations to help protect the cropland. these communities have rather healthy amounts of fuel in storage vs the population due to the needs of modern agriculture so that is a plus. The farm supply stores have barbed wire and T-posts to help fortify the town, small welding/repair shops to fabricate fixtures for the strongpoints and perhaps a few 'tin-clad' vehicles.

The ability both in supplies and equipment to build fortifications, supplies to last through a lean time for food, a cadre population with a strong attachment to the town and surrounding areas, the ability to sort through refugees to decide who can help in the town defense...

Politically I see a far less democratic form but still not 'martial', more like an EYE-talian city state where a gaggle of rich old men and their families run the town with outlying 'barons' formed from the larger farmer clans we have around here. There is a grandfather with at least 3 of his sons living within eyesight of each other out there, a nice repair shop and rather large grain storage, equipment to build strongpoints, local fuel storage....

ahhh not that I have given this much thought ya understand... ;)
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Worlds of difference between unified battle to sustain the republic and an end of days anarchy, dont you think? One is definitely worth fighting for...the other...let the wretched refuse kill each other off first. The OP was not about rallying to defend the country...it was about an end of days scenario. The picture painted was that of a handful of survivalists pinned ina steel building with anarchy death and violence all around you. To that, my answer remains the same.
 
notquiteright said:
very good points- do want to point out a couple of things. What actually happened is the local water sources are to provide immediate supply with FEMA then hiring other sources to bring in more water. FEMA doesn't keep millions of gallons stored anywhere. Some tried to use the contracts FEMA put out for more water as a lack of preparedness.

Next point is the use of most water filters on urban water sources. These water filters filter out certain organisms, dirt and the like but they do not filter out chemicals. Urban water can easily contain many chemicals not found in a mountain stream. I'm not sure I'd be trying to filter and drink it.

There might very well be more 'conservatives' after a huge disaster that devastates large population centers but if they drink a lot of city runoff through water filter straws their kids might have two heads but still only one vote! ;)
Click to expand...

Lol, I hear you there. Filtered gasoline is still gasoline. Toilet tanks contain a couple gallons of fresh water. When I lived in Okinawa (3 years) when we had typhoons coming in the island would shut down public water sources. We had fair warning and would clean and fill the bathtub first.
 
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