What is your religious denomination?

Zen Buddhist. Backed into it, to be honest. At the time I was a disgusted Christian, a lapsed Catholic, a refugee from organized religion and happy being that way. Zen made great sense to me. Buddhist philosophy makes great sense to me.

Medusa said:

you must know many religions advise you to avoid stealing ,gossiping , killing ,etc as well as practice of worship ,teachings ,rituals

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Very true. Every religion is made up of both Theology and Ritual/Practice. The Theology is what they claim to believe and the Ritual/Practice is the means through which they show their piety.

When one looks at the theology of a large number of the religions, there are a great number of common ideals and values espoused. They claim to want Peace, Health, Law & Order, etc.... and to be against Theft, Rape, Murder, et al.... The problem comes that there's always a caveat, an exception, etc.... Live in peace with everyone (Except THOSE guys. It's okay to rob, cheat, steal, murder, rape THOSE people because WE'RE the Chosen Ones and they aren't). It's hypocritical and obviously so, if one takes a step back to look at it; and no religion/theology is truly free from that form of thinking. They've all been on both sides of the equation for thousands of years.

Medusa said:

also l need to know what you mean by universal morality ? because your worldview seems a little authoritarian and despotic

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Why does every wolf pack have an Alpha, a Beta and an Omega? Why do herds of wild horses follow the lead Stallion and Mare? Why do salmon swim upstream to mate every year? Natural Instinct and Order. They were made that way for a particular reason and nature has maintained these social and instinctive traits for thousands of years. It is only humankind which believes it knows better than The Universe how things should work. We're the only species that I'm aware of that actively goes out of its way to ignore our instincts and nature at almost every single turn. Those instincts and nature ARE the basis for Universal Morality. Human beings learned to live together in a certain way, with certain roles, rules, and instinctive knowledge sharpened against nature's sharper edges. Then we became "Civilized" and have now thrown most of that knowledge away, to our detriment.

Medusa said:

dont get me wrong ,l am trying to understand you

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No problem. I'm not 100% certain that I can explain it fully through this medium. I'm a much better verbal communicator than a writer.

Pilot said:

I see where you're coming from, but our natural explanations aren't all that. How did the universe come to be from nothing? Where did the first cell on earth come from? Did one cell really turn into today's humans? Personally, I think it makes just as much sense to say a God did all the above than to say it all happened by chance and a universe came from nothing at all.

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1. Only religious people make the claim that the universe came from nothing.
2. The thing called a cell evolved to that point, it didnt just appear as a cell like magic.
3. Evolution is more complex than everything came from the development of one cell.

You may believe that the concept of a god makes as much sense but that does not mean that you have any evidence. On the other hand science can provide the evidence for origins to a certain extent.

I simply consider myself a believer. I think there are two types of people in the world: those who need to be rescued by God and those who have been already. The entire human race is in need of God's rescue and most don't realize it. The confusing thing for many people there's the thought that being rescued by God is somehow equivalent to embracing some form of church culture, joining a religious group and abiding by the rules, rituals and traditions of that group. No, that is religion, which can be a deceptive counterfeit to being authentically rescued by God. Religion isn't always necessarily a bad thing but it should not be confused with God's rescue.

First I realized I haven't led a perfect life. If I stole something 10 years ago or did some other bad thing followed by 10 years for of doing good deeds, that does not exonerate me from accountability for the bad thing I did. This is what I've found most people think being good enough for God means especially if they also join a church. Take the worst thing a person can do; most of us probably would say kill someone. There are no amount of good deeds and religious cultural conformity that will ever exonerate a person from the crime of killing another person. As I understand it, all "sins" as just as sinful to God and the only way justice can be fulfilled is if they are punished, period. Enter Jesus who came to the earth to be punished in our places. What then happens is if someone acknowledges they are guilty (many people think they are already good enough for God), has faith that Jesus was perfect but was punished in their place and then commits to a master/servant relationship with him, which will likely have mixed results considering we're still not perfect but at least we can be forgiven. At that point a supernatural event occurs where spiritually a new person is literally created superimposed on the old one. It is that new spiritually created person who has the ability to commune with God and makes a person a son or daughter of God who is a believer and no denomination or religion can produce that. That person can join a religion too and probably should but should not use religion as a replacement for an authentic new birth status with God.

Anyway to answer the question...:lamo I go to a church with no denominational affiliation. There's an association with other churches however, most notably the Hillsong Movement. Promise Keepers founder Coach Bill McCartney has spoken at my church, TD Jakes is scheduled this year and our teens went to California last summer to volunteer at the LA Dream Center, to you you an idea.

Tigger said:

Very true. Every religion is made up of both Theology and Ritual/Practice. The Theology is what they claim to believe and the Ritual/Practice is the means through which they show their piety.

When one looks at the theology of a large number of the religions, there are a great number of common ideals and values espoused. They claim to want Peace, Health, Law & Order, etc.... and to be against Theft, Rape, Murder, et al.... The problem comes that there's always a caveat, an exception, etc.... Live in peace with everyone (Except THOSE guys. It's okay to rob, cheat, steal, murder, rape THOSE people because WE'RE the Chosen Ones and they aren't). It's hypocritical and obviously so, if one takes a step back to look at it; and no religion/theology is truly free from that form of thinking. They've all been on both sides of the equation for thousands of years.



Why does every wolf pack have an Alpha, a Beta and an Omega? Why do herds of wild horses follow the lead Stallion and Mare? Why do salmon swim upstream to mate every year? Natural Instinct and Order. They were made that way for a particular reason and nature has maintained these social and instinctive traits for thousands of years. It is only humankind which believes it knows better than The Universe how things should work. We're the only species that I'm aware of that actively goes out of its way to ignore our instincts and nature at almost every single turn. Those instincts and nature ARE the basis for Universal Morality. Human beings learned to live together in a certain way, with certain roles, rules, and instinctive knowledge sharpened against nature's sharper edges. Then we became "Civilized" and have now thrown most of that knowledge away, to our detriment.

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No problem. I'm not 100% certain that I can explain it fully through this medium. I'm a much better verbal communicator than a writer.

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we may be defined as smarter animals because we have both instinct and a brain ,which made us human during our evolutional process. so we are aware of our existence and thats why we have been trying to question the secrets of this universe and our genesis since we learnt to think.

we developed our universal morality regardless of our instincts because the evolutional fact doesnt care about how we must act in a society.

Medusa said:

we may be defined as smarter animals because we have both instinct and a brain ,which made us human during our evolutional process. so we are aware of our existence and thats why we have been trying to question the secrets of this universe and our genesis since we learnt to think.

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I would suggest that we should be defined as more concieted rather than smarter. We believe that somehow we are outside of the natural order simply because we have a more highly developed sense of reason and tool building capability. On the other hand I would suggest that those capabilities exist as a means to test our Soul. To see whether we will do what we Should do or what we Can do.

Medusa said:

we developed our universal morality regardless of our instincts because the evolutional fact doesnt care about how we must act in a society.

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Have you ever considered that the society we've created might just be Immoral itself?

Raised Catholic, studied to be a Priest at one point (even though I had no interest in altar boys). Now a member of the United Church of Christ, but I'm angry with my church, so we'll see what happens there.

rocket88 said:

Raised Catholic, studied to be a Priest at one point (even though I had no interest in altar boys). Now a member of the United Church of Christ, but I'm angry with my church, so we'll see what happens there.

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May we ask why?

Risky Thicket said:

May we ask why?

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Well, they fired me from my position as a volunteer A/V guy. I also suspect that some members of the church helped my ex-wife move out, and are taking her "side" in the divorce.

None/Atheist.

I grew up in a non-religious home. When I moved to the south in teens...I became a converted Baptist Christian. After many years of questions and answers that came from logic and reasoning...I do not believe.

I pick the label Atheist even though it shouldn't be listed as a religious denomination because it simply means an absence of religion.

I respect those who find peace in their religion. I respect the charity work that goes on. I will even participate in charity events...not because it is God's calling, but because it is the right thing to do.

I have learned that religion became a form of control throughout the ages. A way to make sure the people followed a set order and chaos didn't ensue.

However, we have grown so much as a species and learned hard science and evidence that directly contradicts religion.

One question I had was this:

If you have to be "saved" in order to go to heaven then what would happen if a non-believer who led his life admirably and gave back to his community (charity and what not) died. Also, what if a mass murderer became a convert in prison died. He killed say 10 or more people, but converted. That murderer goes to the eternal Utopia while the other guy who was a great person burns in eternal flame?

I'm sorry, but that lost me for good.

People told me I had to just have faith. Well, I had faith in Santa Claus when I was young....then I became older and realized it is impossible for a fat man to travel the world in one night giving gifts. I also understood that the entire world never flooded, and it is impossible that world was created in 7 days.

I don't think of an afterlife....I'm too busy living this regular life to worry about such things.

Vapor said:

We've got a vast spread of political ideologies on this forum, let's see how diverse our religious beliefs are. I'm sure this has been done in the past, but...meh.

This isn't intended as a catalyst for theological debates, but if that's where it leads...y'all have fun.

I, personally, am an agnostic because A. I realized that the Christian stories I was raised with made no more sense than the Norse and Greek "Mythologies" and B. I don't feel like humanity is capable of understanding whatever supernatural force, if any, exists; if we can't stop killing each other, how can we expect to understand the nature of the universe? And C. almost all religions teach peace, yet they seem incapable of co-existing, and therefore, I have a problem with organized religion.

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Very much my position, but I voted "other".
Despite all the ugliness that is reported by the media, its still a beautiful world...full of wonders....and kindness....but this is never reported that I know of..

Pilot said:

I see where you're coming from, but our natural explanations aren't all that. How did the universe come to be from nothing? Where did the first cell on earth come from? Did one cell really turn into today's humans? Personally, I think it makes just as much sense to say a God did all the above than to say it all happened by chance and a universe came from nothing at all.

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You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and as an atheist I have zero interest in converting you, but just to briefly make the point...a god is not needed to explain any of that.

Tigger said:

I would suggest that we should be defined as more concieted rather than smarter. We believe that somehow we are outside of the natural order simply because we have a more highly developed sense of reason and tool building capability. On the other hand I would suggest that those capabilities exist as a means to test our Soul. To see whether we will do what we Should do or what we Can do.



Have you ever considered that the society we've created might just be Immoral itself?

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do you know you are describing the concept of divine trial and examination which will be a determinative factor in god judging people by their actions ?

and yes l know people are evil and good .this is our nature as you mentioned before .but evolution has been continuing ..

None of the above. I have religious beliefs, but don't practice and adhere to any formal dogma. I don't believe in any prophet, and I don't view God as a strictly benevolent force. It's more a way of thinking and perceiving the world, and it guides my moral positions.

Medusa said:

do you know you are describing the concept of divine trial and examination which will be a determinative factor in god judging people by their actions?

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Yes. I am quite well aware of that. Just because I do not believe in a particular Religion does not mean I don't believe that there is a Universal Power out there which will Judge all of us in the end. It just means that I'm not a believer that religion is the proper way to go about dealing with that Power.

Medusa said:

and yes l know people are evil and good. this is our nature as you mentioned before. but evolution has been continuing...

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No amount of evolution is ever going to change the fact that there are people who are both good and evil. To believe there is an ability to override human nature that thoroughly is almost scary in my mind. The only way to do it is to take away all individuality.

I'm not much of anything at all, but if I were to try to define my beliefs, they would probably lie somewhere between agnosticism and polytheism. I allow for the possibility of God while recognizing that there are aspects of all religions that are worthwhile as well as problematic. My theory is that were it somehow possible to create a ven diagram out of all the world's religions and lay them atop one another, and allowing for the possibility of divinity, such would be found in those areas of intersection.

The 'god' concept seems to me a bit 'willed' nowadays - it was the form in which people thought it proper to put their best notions, and a guarantee of support from on high once upon a time. What they proposed by way of behaviour, though, was usually pretty good. I was brought up an Anglican Christian Socialist myself, and after a long Quaker-attending gap am thinking of going back where I came from. Theology has moved on a long way.

Tigger said:

Yes. I am quite well aware of that. Just because I do not believe in a particular Religion does not mean I don't believe that there is a Universal Power out there which will Judge all of us in the end. It just means that I'm not a believer that religion is the proper way to go about dealing with that Power.



No amount of evolution is ever going to change the fact that there are people who are both good and evil. To believe there is an ability to override human nature that thoroughly is almost scary in my mind. The only way to do it is to take away all individuality.

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you had said our instincts specify our universal morality .do you think we must get over our nature ?

Medusa said:

you had said our instincts specify our universal morality. do you think we must get over our nature ?

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No, I believe that Universal Morality is the embracing of our instincts and nature AGAINST the capability to deny/overcome it. It is my view that we are here to prove the capability of our Souls to do what we Should rather than what we Can. To fight against the intellectual urge to be more than we are supposed to be; and rather to live life as it Should be lived rather than how it Can be lived.

Gardener said:

I'm not much of anything at all, but if I were to try to define my beliefs, they would probably lie somewhere between agnosticism and polytheism. I allow for the possibility of God while recognizing that there are aspects of all religions that are worthwhile as well as problematic. My theory is that were it somehow possible to create a ven diagram out of all the world's religions and lay them atop one another, and allowing for the possibility of divinity, such would be found in those areas of intersection.

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Sure. But you misspelled viagra.

paris said:

Sure. But you misspelled viagra.

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That's because I'm a Cialis sort of fellow, my friend. That little two or three hour window provided by Viagra just isn't enough.

Tigger said:

No, I believe that Universal Morality is the embracing of our instincts and nature AGAINST the capability to deny/overcome it. It is my view that we are here to prove the capability of our Souls to do what we Should rather than what we Can. To fight against the intellectual urge to be more than we are supposed to be; and rather to live life as it Should be lived rather than how it Can be lived.

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our universal morality doesnt take its source from our instincts . .it is our mind which led us to develop these ethics to be a part of the society in which we have to live together because we are social beings .

you may know eastern philosophies differ from abrahamic ones in forming an idealized human . your views on this issue seem to be a mixture of both of them.

Dragonfly said:

Losing values? Or getting smarter?

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I know. It's like a football team down 35-14 in the 4th quarter claiming "Football has lost it's values".

Tigger said:

Other: Spiritual Moralist.

I believe that Personal Spirituality and Universal Morality are much more important than any sort of organized faith or religion.

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What are those "universal" morals?