Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:57]

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:

Viv said:

Pum pum pum.....yes, just one man. He's all right though for a man, he has a brain and great big...bank balance.

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Ah ha!.............

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:

Viv said:

This thread is wearing me out and it's gone off topic. I'm away.

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Of course you are; it makes perfect sense for you to bolt from a beat-down. Transparently perfect sense.

Though not without getting in one more doozy of a sexist shot:

Viv said:

Pum pum pum.....yes, just one man. He's all right though for a man, he has a brain and great big...bank balance.

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Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:

Paratrooper said:

We carry what is necessary. When I went from infantry to special ops, my pack got bigger and heavier.

When OIF started, my unit was responsible for taking the western desert. We had to pack enough food, water, ammunition, to get through to the next supply drop. We had the best gear available to the military and did not carry luxury items.

We were fortunate enough to have vehicles so humping these packs was not necessary but we always trained for it as a contingency plan.

Training marches were a 75 pound ruck ( and water was extra on top of this weight) we had a little supply guy who weighed about 130. Despite maxing his pt test these marches were an epic struggle for him. He would constantly fall down because the weight was too much for him.

Different units have different missions and physical demands.

Most of the guys in my unit looked like big country boys but we were suitably built for our mission.

My brother-in laws unit down the road LRRSD, they were younger, and generally smaller than we were and they were suitably built for their task.

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I have trekked through Peru and seen some very small men there carrying multiple rucksacks other bigger men couldn't possibly manage. Sherpas the same. I often throw big bags about in the course of my own work and am involved in other physical duties, which men regularly cry off due to bad shoulders, bad backs, bla bla bla. It's not prohibitive. In a lot of cases technique is helpful. In the case of carrying injured from the field of battle, technique might come into play.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:

Harshaw said:

Of course you are; it makes perfect sense for you to bolt from a beat-down. Transparently perfect sense.

Though not without getting in one more doozy of a sexist shot:

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Beat down...righto. What are you on about now? If you want me to beat you down, hurry up. I have other things to do here.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:

Viv said:

Beat down...righto. What are you on about now? If you want me to beat you down, hurry up. I have other things to do here.

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It helps, if you're going to declare yourself above a thread and leave righteously, that you actually leave it.

Else, you end up with even less credibility than you had before you said it.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Viv said:

I wouldn't remove anything. I would bring in the techies and reduce the weight of everything in the pack.

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While it's a good thing to be constantly trying to make things more efficient and effective for our military, we shouldn't focus on this just so that women can carry the packs. The focus shouldn't be on "gender equality" (as you think it should), but with national security and the safety of our soldiers.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Viv said:

This is almost all true and the reality is that although they are becoming physically bigger by generation and in the future they may be physically better equipped, at this juncture women are on the whole not physically able to fulfill that criteria. However, if all that is required to remove that obstacle is lighter kit, wtf are you on about? That is far from insurmountable. NASA is able to lighten and downsize all manner of materials to enable craft to go into space. Technology probably already exists to lighten military tools.

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I'm sure they have made the kits as light as they possibly can for the time being. Don't you think they would want to improve things for the people who are already in the military? They are always trying to make advances in equipment, such as body armor which they have made MAJOR improvements in.

Perhaps in the future, you will be correct and they will find a way to make things easier and women WILL be able to play a larger role, but as it stands right now it is what it is, and the women who can pass the physical fitness tests are more than welcome, I'm sure.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

ChrisL said:

I'm sure they have made the kits as light as they possibly can for the time being. Don't you think they would want to improve things for the people who are already in the military? They are always trying to make advances in equipment, such as body armor which they have made MAJOR improvements in.

Perhaps in the future, you will be correct and they will find a way to make things easier and women WILL be able to play a larger role, but as it stands right now it is what it is, and the women who can pass the physical fitness tests are more than welcome, I'm sure.

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It's not as easy to dismiss if your law supports equal opportunities, a discrimination case could be made against the employer and the issue could be forced. That is probably the only way it will be done as is often the case with womens' rights and any other rights, they have to be taken, they are rarely given.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Viv said:

It's not as easy to dismiss if your law supports equal opportunities, a discrimination case could be made against the employer and the issue could be forced. That is probably the only way it will be done as if often the case with womens' rights and any other rights, they have to be taken, they are rarely given.

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It is an equal opportunity. The testing is the SAME for males and females. That is equal. It's the same results if men can't pass the physical fitness test.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Viv said:

It's not as easy to dismiss if your law supports equal opportunities, a discrimination case could be made against the employer and the issue could be forced. That is probably the only way it will be done as if often the case with womens' rights and any other rights, they have to be taken, they are rarely given.

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If a person cannot handle the job description, an employer isn't obligated to dumb it down just so you can work there. You either can do it or you can't. I believe there are women that can handle the current standards for combat in the military right now. There's no need to change anything just because some women can't do it.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Navy Pride said:

would you want your wife, sister or daughter to serve in hand to hand combat and live in a foxhole?

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I know I'm late to this, but I want to respond.

It doesn't matter what I want. That is irrelevant. What matters is what they want. If they want to serve in a combat role then I will not stand in their way. I will only hope for their safe return and wish them well.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Josie said:

While it's a good thing to be constantly trying to make things more efficient and effective for our military, we shouldn't focus on this just so that women can carry the packs. The focus shouldn't be on "gender equality" (as you think it should), but with national security and the safety of our soldiers.

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If you read back through the thread, I expressed incredulity that with all the real issues related to women and combat, the one under discussion is kit. It's nonsense. It's the least important and more resolvable issue on the table.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Viv said:

And Gandhi's mountain was at least as high as this one.



I'm "dense". What do you expect? (over your head)

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Ghandi didn't fight for a highly sexist agenda and demand that women have lower standards and be capable of less. You're literally the worst feminist on the planet. You go out saying women are equal, but demand that they aren't treated equal when it comes to responsibility and physical standards. It's disgusting.

Viv said:

While you go on and on and on with the futile, impractical and unrealistic assertion that because male proportions allow them to carry X weight, women must somehow change their physiology to be like men. Women are built differently and they are entitled to be what they are.

As to heavy lifting, based on male track records we all know how it will go. If men can get away with it, the women will eventually be dragging all of the kit while men will be standing about scratching their parts and making rude noises while talking a lot of crap about sports. I expect that's why you are so pissed that women can't carry more.

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Women don't need to change their physiology, they just need to be able to DO THE ****ING JOB, a job of which you've continued to show you have no idea about.

Viv said:

Why don't you list the items in the kit you know so much about and I will help you work through them with helpful suggestions.

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Mission dependent, but a standard load would be:
- Rifle
- At least 300 rounds of ammo for said rifle
- Body armor with full plates
- Grenades
- Flash light
- Knee pads
- Kevlar helmet
- Ruck sack
- 60 mm mortar rounds (they're divied up among the patrol)
- Gigantic radio batteries (also divied up among the patrol)
- At least a gallon of water
- Food for several days
- Change of socks and shirts
- IR beacon
- Small batteries
- Poncho liner (small, lightweight thermal blanket)
- Radio (if you're a radio operator. I was, it sucks ass because it's an extra 20+ lbs)
- Whatever the women don't want to carry (according to your plan)

This is just the bare minimum for an extended mission. There are other things that may be required. With this standard load out you're looking at well over 100 lbs. So take that, load it down on your body, then walk 20 kilometers through the rockiest mountains on the planet.

Perhaps you'd like the men to be the pack mules, while the women walk around with just a rifle. When the women need something they can just pick it off the back of the men. Equality my ass.

Viv said:

I'm sure people mocked Gandhi's idea of peace v violence. The British stopped mocking though, didn't they....

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Once again, Ghandi wasn't a sexist bigot that believed that women should be the ruling class, like you. You don't want equal rights for women, you want them to have more rights.

I don't say this to be rude.... But I'm seeing a lot of ignorance about our capabilities and our actual missions.

I have deployed 5 times ( four of those were to Iraq) and none of them were as a fobbit (not that I'm dissing any of the guys who were just showing I spent much of my time outside the wire)

I am now an instructor.

We do not carry big packs just so we can feel like badasses. How much water do you think you need if your spending days being physically active in 138 degree heat? What if your vehicle gets destroyed and you are in a remote hotspot that a rescue team can't get to you right away. We have to plan for whatif,

Whatif you get stranded and need extra rations and water? What if the weather dips down and gets cold, it did snow in Baghdad in 2003.

Our equipment does improve with time, particularly after events like OEF/OIF where they can get feedback from how it performs in the "real world". Though the government seems hellbent on taking a chainsaw to our budget.

I train thousands of soldiers a year, I get to see first hand men and women performing their Army Warrior Task and Battle Drills.

I am not a drillsgt, I don't train recruits, I retrain soldiers that are deploying, soldiers that (should) already know these standards and be able to perform them well.

In most instances when I have seen units struggling to perform a physically demanding task it has been females that are holding them back.

Sometimes its that they are sandbagging ( some women do pull the " I'm a girl can one of you big strong men come and do this for me" ) sometimes its just that they are not physically or mentally tough enough for the task.

Now I'm not( and have never said) that there are not women who can perform to standard in combat arms units, I'm just saying it is a very small number.

Polish GROM has some women in it, but the ones I've met looked like NFL lineman with wigs on.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Viv said:

If you read back through the thread, I expressed incredulity that with all the real issues related to women and combat, the one under discussion is kit. It's nonsense. It's the least important and more resolvable issue on the table.

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How is the "least important?" Your argument makes no sense at all. It's quite obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about and perhaps it's time you bowed out of the discussion to save what little dignity you have left.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Josie said:

If a person cannot handle the job description, an employer isn't obligated to dumb it down just so you can work there. You either can do it or you can't. I believe there are women that can handle the current standards for combat in the military right now. There's no need to change anything just because some women can't do it. This is very true..

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NO to "dumbing down"
YES to the team effort in survival, business or military
I'll do the 1.1 and the woman can do the 0.9, this matters not a mote, and in many other aspects, I'll be lucky to do the 0.9 while the woman does the 1.1 ..
The days of the lone ranger are long over...

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

cpwill said:

:roll:

It's not an assumption that speed and strength are important in combat. That is an observed reality.

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It may be an assumption that the pt test accurately measures how much is really needed.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

ReformCollege said:

Thousands of armed officials, deployed troops, and ranked officers would disagree with you.

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Wouldn't be the first time they were all wrong.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Boo Radley said:

Wouldn't be the first time they were all wrong.

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So, why be coy? Just say what you would like to see happen. :shrug: I don't know why some of posters are afraid to actually come out and state their opinions on what they would like to see done instead of playing these silly little childish games.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

ChrisL said:

So, why be coy? Just say what you would like to see happen. :shrug: I don't know why some of posters are afraid to actually come out and state their opinions on what they would like to see done instead of playing these silly little childish games.

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I think I have clearly stated what I want. I shall enumerate:

1) re-evaluate thinks like the pt test to see if it really measures what the military thinks (as related to the job needs).

2) have test for everyone, male and female that actually measure ability to do the job.

3) stop generating and deal with individuals specifically.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Boo Radley said:

I think I have clearly stated what I want. I shall enumerate:

1) re-evaluate thinks like the pt test to see if it really measures what the military thinks (as related to the job needs).

2) have test for everyone, male and female that actually measure ability to do the job.

3) stop generating and deal with individuals specifically.

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1) I wouldn't have a problem with that, but what makes you think they don't do that or haven't done that?

2) That is what they do now. Lol!

3) What do you mean by that? Different standards for different individuals or different standards for different duties?

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Fewer women being able to pass the tests is not evidence that the test is not an accurate measure of the needs of the job.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

ChrisL said:

1) I wouldn't have a problem with that, but what makes you think they don't do that or haven't done that?

2) That is what they do now. Lol!

3) What do you mean by that? Different standards for different individuals or different standards for different duties?

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1) I was told nothing has changed in forever, so I suspect they haven't. But they can make the process accessible.

2) no that is your assumption. You assume the pt test dies that.

3) I mean stop talking about men and women as a stereotyped group, and speak more to individual males and females who do and don't do the job.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Boo Radley said:

1) I was told nothing has changed in forever, so I suspect they haven't. But they can make the process accessible.

2) no that is your assumption. You assume the pt test dies that.

3) I mean stop talking about men and women as a stereotyped group, and speak more to individual males and females who do and don't do the job.

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1) You were told? Oh okay. :roll:

2) I'm sorry that you cannot understand the fact that some jobs require a high quality of expectations from potential participants. There are standards. You may not like them, but it is just common sense, especially when you factor in the seriousness of the job being life and death a lot of times. It is only natural to expect the highest levels of physical fitness and a certain level of exceptionalism. Kind of like Olympic athletes or other professional sports.

3) You are the one stereotyping by assuming that women should get a handicap. That is not equality.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

ChrisL said:

1) You were told? Oh okay. :roll:

2) I'm sorry that you cannot understand the fact that some jobs require a high quality of expectations from potential participants. There are standards. You may not like them, but it is just common sense, especially when you factor in the seriousness of the job being life and death a lot of times. It is only natural to expect the highest levels of physical fitness and a certain level of exceptionalism. Kind of like Olympic athletes or other professional sports.

3) You are the one stereotyping by assuming that women should get a handicap. That is not equality.

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1) it's what started the conversation.

2) that you assume it is common sense is my point. Life and death may depend on other factors more, and pt may not lead us in the right direction.

3) I've asked for no handicap. Whatever they find should be across the board.