Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:57]

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

The DoD isn't suggesting any different standard, so that should be fine.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

UtahBill said:

did you serve in combat? and I mean carry a weapon, get shot at, shoot back, etc....not just spend time in-country....

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Read the ****ing thread my left wing friend......... You might learn something not.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Aunt Spiker said:

He said 'risk their lives in combat' in the thread title.

(in general towards the whole subject - not your post
No one joins the military hoping or planning or wanting to die (risk their lives) in combat (or training - or on a march - or on the range) - they join for all other reasons and sometimes they take the risk because those other reasons are worth it.

Don't let him fool you - he didn't think of anything else when he wrote it. That would have taken too much effort on his part.

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Again, risking your life is not the same as wanting to die. There are plenty of people who do things which are risky for reasons as crazy as just wanting an adrenaline rush.

There are actually some who go in the military for more than a stable paycheck. One of my best friends is in the Army Special Forces. He takes his job in the service more seriously than the vast majority. I see Navy Pride's question as whether women actually want the combat role or just want the increased chance of promotion that comes with it.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

earthworm said:

Elaborate.
Are you saying that a woman cannot achieve as much as a man ?
And by what standards ?

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Women can't match men it terms of strength and endurance. You choose the best 100 women you can find and I'll choose the best 100 men I can find. Pair them in combat against each other. Would you bet over or under 5 women winning? We can do the same with endurance trials in the form of military humps. I will bet whatever you want that the men I select will outlast the women you select when it comes to traveling with 150 lb backpacks or carrying a body. There are many other important military aspects where the men will continue to win.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Tucker Case said:

Which is why training is so much more important that strength.

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I sooooo agree. Is why I curl my lip at pogues who think because they have a few hours fondling their 'gun' they are grunt-like. What many pogues forget/don't understand is in order for that grunt to be 'boots on the ground' there was a whole lot of abuse endured to be there. Laying in the mud for hours, sleeping in snow, bustin the bush in hot humid places. mind over matter- they don't mind and you don't matter. Hell I remember arriving at Ft. Puke, changing into fatigues to go stand out in the rain getting soaked to the bone being lectured by the Drills who stood under the supply shed's overhang on how we would receive ONE each roll of TP for our stay in lousyanna. Welcome to the Infantry, that's stuff you won't see on the gung-ho recruitment posters!

The constant weapons/tactics training that is what separates the grunt from the I fondled one once crowd... it is done till it's muscle memory because to stop and think is to freeze, the biggest concept that separates a good NCO from mediocre is the ability to take it all in in one life or death second and pull the magic rabbit out of the hat. Recognize and React.

So many are hung up on the Hollywood hero stuff, dragging a buddy to safety stuff, the Terminator as your Battle Buddy. fact is if you get wounded in a fire fight you'd be better off not want a strong guy to be present but a brave/dumb guy there. Stop and think... YOU just got shot standing there, why would your buddies think it couldn't happen to them? Grunts who run into the kill zone for a buddy get shiny things pinned to their chests, the survivors get fast tracked on the promotion lists because it isn't expected, it is exceptional.

Having a Terminator for a battle buddy???? The person who suggested that doesn't understand the concept of being under direct fire. Last thing you want is someone braver than you thinking they are 8 foot tall and bullet proof anywheres near you! Better a Battle Buddy who knows Death can kiss him full on the lips at any second but still backs your play.

Anywho, not lecturing you, just posting on a lot of what others have been typing.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Navy Pride said:

They are the exception rather the rule.

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Yeah true, but I had to cover the other extreme since one of you in an example (not sure if it was you or not) was putting a 90lb woman in a fox hole.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Mathematician said:

Women can't match men it terms of strength and endurance. You choose the best 100 women you can find and I'll choose the best 100 men I can find. Pair them in combat against each other. Would you bet over or under 5 women winning? We can do the same with endurance trials in the form of military humps. I will bet whatever you want that the men I select will outlast the women you select when it comes to traveling with 150 lb backpacks or carrying a body. There are many other important military aspects where the men will continue to win.

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You base this keen insight on what it takes to be a grunt based on what personal experience? Let me assure you, Uncle Sugar's travelling Green Machine doesn't select grunts out of the recruits based on who scored the highest on 'military humping'. I wasn't tested on my military humping ability till long after going to Advanced Infantry School.

What paired combat are you talking about?

lots of big bad men are in pogue MOS's. There is this little factor called determination. A whole bunch of strongmen quail at the thought of enduring the training required to be under that ruck for the military hump.

Women don't need to 'match' any select group men, they need to do the EXACT same thing I and millions of other men did. Beat the standard, not every other swinging Richard in the race.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

People seem to be posting a lot of emotional responses without bothering to read some of the many stories that are appearing in the media, stories about women who have already been serving in combat but without official recognition as combat troops.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pentagon-says-it-is-lifting-ban-on-women-in-combat.html?_r=0

Former troops say time has come for women in combat units - CNN.com

From women in combat to top brass - The Washington Post

then there is the experience of those nations that have had women serving in combat units for several years

BBC News - Women at war: A colonel in Kandahar

Lt Col Jennie Carignan is based in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan - one of the most dangerous parts of the country - and commands a regiment of engineers and landmine experts.

Col Carignan says the men under her command treat her like any other soldier - but it wasn't always that way. <snip>

Having 23 years in the military under her belt, with missions in the Golan Heights and in Bosnia-Hercegovina, helps her command respect.

"I have grown up with everybody. It's not like I just parachuted in, the brand new girl in town."

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8 Other Nations that Send Women to Combat

Israel: In 1985 the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) began putting women into combat positions and by 2009 women were serving in artillery units, rescue forces, and in anti-aircraft forces. While women must take part in compulsory military service, they are conscripted for only two years, versus three for men.

A study on the integration of female combatants in the IDF between 2002 and 2005 found that women often exhibit "superior skills" in discipline, motivation, and shooting abilities, yet still face prejudicial treatment stemming from "a perceived threat to the historical male combat identity."

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In Afghanistan, Canada's female soldiers earned the right to fight, and die, as equals

In the early hours of May 17, 2006, Capt. Nich Goddard and another junior officer led more than 200 Canadian and Afghan army soldiers into Afghanistan's Panjwaii district.

By midday, Goddard became the first Canadian soldier since the Korean War to execute a fire mission in support of Canadian troop manoeuvres against a known enemy.

A few hours later, Goddard was killed in a firefight.

The 17th Canadian soldier death in Afghanistan sent shock waves across Canada. It was not Goddard's historical mission that generated headlines, though, but her gender: the 26-year-old officer's given names were Nichola Kathleen Sarah.

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Are American women weaker than those of other countries, are they less psychologically capable of going into a firefight than Canadian or Israeli women?

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Tucker Case said:

Of course. But the same is true abut the average woman in the military. Ultimately it comes down to training,

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Absolutely, I expect an average woman in the military to be in better shape than the average woman that doesn't serve....in a similar way to the way that an average man in the military is to his civilian counter part. However, a woman in the military being better physically than a man NOT in the military is as irrelevant in my mind for the conversation of the physical requirements of men and women in the military as the notion that a man in the military being better than a man NOT in the military. You're comparing two different categories of people whose "average" make up is going to be different.

The better comparison is the "average" military woman compared to the "average" military man. And in those terms, the smarter money every time on whose going to have superior head to head physical performance is the guy. Doesn't mean there aren't some women that will be able to contend above and beyond what the "average" equivalent male is going to be able to do. There will be. But by and large, it's not going to be an equal split...and pointing out random instances of the fact that extremely well trained and conditioned women could out do joe slub on the couch doesn't really affect that notion at all.

That said, there are absolutely women that can likely meet the physical requirements AND also have non-physical traits and skills that may prove to be valuable and I don't have an issue with them being allowed to attempt to enter into combat type of role. Especially since, if I understand right, to get to certain higher ranks you are required to have served some combat duty? But I'm not in favor of making it easier to get into certain roles in the name of "equality".

I'm not saying you're suggesting you disagree (or agree with me) and my issue isn't even so much specifically with what you said, but a general mentality and type of statement similar to what you said that keep coming up. I've had a lot of years experience in a combative type of experience that's physically demanding and have been around a number of women during it. A number of women that, compared to a lot of average guys, I'd put money on the lady hands down. But I also recognize that when placed against a guy at a similar type of "top of his game" training or physical prowess they often still would be at a disadvantage in that narrow context.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

If these women that desire to join combat arms can meet exactly the same standards as men they will earn their respect. If they have to lower standards so that more make the cut, then they will be looked down on as weak links.

This is not simply a matter of women having to prove themselves, all combat arms soldiers have to prove themselves. When we had our "turning blue" ceremony in the Infantry it was an achievement. Plenty of people washed out, but the ones who remained learned a new found respect for each other because they knew they had all gone through the same thing and passed the "gut check".

I have no doubt that there are women capable of meeting these standards but I can tell you from experience in the open gender schools that I have attended like Airborne and Air Assault ( and lets face it, these are not hard schools) there was an incredibly high washout rate from females.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Navy Pride said:

Read the ****ing thread my left wing friend......... You might learn something not.

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you asked someone else if they ever served in a combat situation but object to the same question asked of you?

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

I really don't like seeing anyone denigrating anyone else's service, even if it's another service member. I'm thinking it's like a family (sort of). You can bitch about your family members but nobody else can. Anyway, I say this with sincerity, whatever branch of the military under whatever circumstances, sincere thanks to all of you.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

UtahBill said:

you asked someone else if they ever served in a combat situation but object to the same question asked of you?

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You are trying my patience....I rarely agree with you but that does not happen........I posted on my combat experience in another post...........I said I would not mention it again............Again take the time to read the thread.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

X Factor said:

I really don't like seeing anyone denigrating anyone else's service, even if it's another service member. I'm thinking it's like a family (sort of). You can bitch about your family members but nobody else can. Anyway, I say this with sincerity, whatever branch of the military under whatever circumstances, sincere thanks to all of you.

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I will not denigrate anyone's service....My hat is off to them and I thank them for it.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

notquiteright said:

You base this keen insight on what it takes to be a grunt based on what personal experience? Let me assure you, Uncle Sugar's travelling Green Machine doesn't select grunts out of the recruits based on who scored the highest on 'military humping'. I wasn't tested on my military humping ability till long after going to Advanced Infantry School.

What paired combat are you talking about?

lots of big bad men are in pogue MOS's. There is this little factor called determination. A whole bunch of strongmen quail at the thought of enduring the training required to be under that ruck for the military hump.

Women don't need to 'match' any select group men, they need to do the EXACT same thing I and millions of other men did. Beat the standard, not every other swinging Richard in the race.

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My personal experience is having two parents who are retired military, close friends who are still active duty, and 10+ years serving the military as a civilian. I don't claim to be a military expert; my role has been educating them in applied math. However, I think you'll agree that all the tests need to be passed and it doesn't matter whether the hump was the first, sixth, or where in the order it was.

When I said "pair them in combat", I meant do a head-to-head comparison of the combat skills of the best female candidates versus the best male candidates in no specific order. Restricting to the top 100 of each gender, how many women do you think come out ahead of the male they're matched up against?

I agree determination is a significant factor, but it's very possible to fail regardless of how much determination one has.

Doing the same as what you did is matching what you did.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Manc Skipper said:

The DoD isn't suggesting any different standard, so that should be fine.

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Women are already graded by lower standards in the military, so no, they wouldn't be.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Mathematician said:

When I said "pair them in combat", I meant do a head-to-head comparison of the combat skills of the best female candidates versus the best male candidates in no specific order. Restricting to the top 100 of each gender, how many women do you think come out ahead of the male they're matched up against?

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This test would be irrelevant. Combat is not an individual effort, but a team sport.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

cpwill said:

This test would be irrelevant. Combat is not an individual effort, but a team sport.

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Tell that to Chuck Norris.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

cpwill said:

Women are already graded by lower standards in the military, so no, they wouldn't be.

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What standard are they rated different that makes a real difference?

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Boo Radley said:

What standard are they rated different that makes a real difference?

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Strength and speed.

Two things that sort of kind of have an effect in the infantry.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

cpwill said:

Strength and speed.

Two things that sort of kind of have an effect in the infantry.

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How much strength and speed is really required? I bet there are women quite capable.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Manc Skipper said:

It's obvious that the OP shows no concern for the wishes of women seeking to serve their country in a combat role. Perhaps he would prefer them barefoot at the kitchen sink?

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I don't have a problem with women having careers. I have a problem with women having careers in fields where their specific anatomical differences make them unsuitable to perform their job duties and present a real danger to their comrades. And, secondarily, I have a problem with young women in careers that have such a high chance of death or disability. It is good for a society to bleed off its excess males in this fashion; it is very, very bad to do this with females.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?[W:

Navy Pride said:

In my 21 years in the military I have never heard of one person be they man or woman who wanted to serve in combat.

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I served. I enlisted in the Marine Corps in Dec. of 68. Went to boot camp in Jan. of 69. Got my WEST-PAC orders and was "in-country" from June 69 - July 70.

I enlisted not because I wanted to go to Nam. It was duty to country why I enlisted. Most of us back then served because of duty to country and it was expected of us. I think because most our fathers served during W W ll played a significant part when it came to duty to country.

Did I really want to go to Vietnam ? No. I would have been just as happy serving on a 8" gun cruiser as part of the Marine Detachment or serving my entire tour of duty at Camp Pendleton.

I knew many who wanted to go to Nam but they started having second thoughts once they boarded that Continental Airlines flight headed for Okinawa. From their it was a Cathay Pacific flight to Da Nang. It was a loney war because most of us didn't go over as a unit but as replac ements for those who tour of duty was up. Nobody wanted to get to close to the FNG. I would discover why, if you look at the Wall with all of the names you'll notice that the vast majority who paid the ultimate sacefice were killed with in the first three months of being in-country.

Once you were in-country you had a mission and you did it but it was no longer duty to country but survival. And you learned real quick you couldn't survive on your own. You were dependent on the guys in your team or squad. They watched your six and you watched their six. I survived.

If I would have to do it over again and even knowing what the outcome of the was was going to be, yes.

I grew up in a all Democrat home. I probably looked at my self as being a Democrat when I enlisted even though I was A-political back then. But by the time I got on the freedom bird I was a Republican. I looked at who got us involved in Vietnam, and saw they were the same people who backed stabbed us while we were on the battlefields of Vietnam. By the late 70's I was a conservative.

Women serving in combat would be a huge distraction. You have a mission to accomplish while at the same time trying to survive and watching your buddies six. I think I would end up paying to much attention of watching the six (no pun intended) of a female Marine or soldier and let up on watching my own six.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Boo Radley said:

How much strength and speed is really required?

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There you have it, ladies and gentlemen. From "The Standards Will Not Change" to "The Standards Are Irrelevant" in less than a single thread!


And they call us crazy when we said that's how it would go.




Anywho, to answer your question, lots.

Re: Do you really think women in the Military want to risk their lives in combat?

Let me break it down for you...

Let's say two soldiers one male and one female are up for a a promotion. They are both equal in all aspects with the final deciding factor of who gets the promotion down to the pt test. Lets set the score at 270 because they are looking to do well, not just meet the minimum standard.

This is what a 17-21 year old male has to do to get a score of 270:
Push ups:64 (in 2 minutes), Sit ups: 72 (in 2 minutes), 2 mile run: 13:42 minutes

17-21 year old female:
Push ups: 36 (in 2 minutes), Sit ups: 72 (in 2 minutes), 2 mile run: 16:24 minutes

As you can see a 17-21 year old male must do 28 more push ups in 2 minutes, and run the two mile run almost 3 minutes faster. I consider this to be a fairly significant difference.