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Time for Alcohol Control?

Should we propose further alcohol control?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 12.1%
  • No

    Votes: 22 66.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 7 21.2%

  • Total voters
    33
Harsher punishments, stricter measures, stricter adherence to the laws in place, stricter background checks, etc.

Would you apply those some of those same standards to serial alcohol law violators.
Background checks make sense in that regard.

As it is, a serial alcohol law violator, has no restrictions on the continued use of alcohol.
There are no retail checks to stop him/her.
 
I respect a person's right to own a gun.

So we're talking about restriction of freedom, not just the item being restricted. The freedom to bear arms is supposed to be a constitutional right. Anything with the power to defend me is going to have the equal power to assault and kill someone, innocent and unfairly.

It's all about the freedom, where does others begin and mine end? It's where the law says it does what I've been saying all along. We can slice and dice the gun laws all day and it won't change hardly a hair on the criminal averages, short of complete gun confiscation. And even that would not work out very well.
 
Would you apply those some of those same standards to serial alcohol law violators.
Background checks make sense in that regard.

As it is, a serial alcohol law violator, has no restrictions on the continued use of alcohol.
There are no retail checks to stop him/her.

Again, and again, and again, there's a difference between unintentionally killing someone while intoxicated and shooting up a school.

And to be able to own a gun requires more extensive background check because a gun can most definitely cause greater violence, on per case basis, than alcohol.
 
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So we're talking about restriction of freedom, not just the item being restricted. The freedom to bear arms is supposed to be a constitutional right. Anything with the power to defend me is going to have the equal power to assault and kill someone, innocent and unfairly.

It's all about the freedom, where does others begin and mine end? It's where the law says it does what I've been saying all along. We can slice and dice the gun laws all day and it won't change hardly a hair on the criminal averages, short of complete gun confiscation. And even that would not work out very well.

We become more strict with the measures of gun control which are currently in place and we become more strict with the illegal distribution of guns.

Either that or we arm the entire population, no matter what the age.
 
I propose,

A background check system, for all alcohol purchases, supported by a fee, probably $25 per purchase.

A limit to the amount of alcohol containers, that can be purchased per day.

The limiting of alcohol percentages per volume, probably 5% or less.

What say you?

What about malted barley? I can pretty much DIY the whole brewing process but would have a pretty hard time coming up with my own malted barley. Would your proposition restrict sales of malted barley?

If I wanted, I could grow my own apples and other fruits, harvest yeast from dregs of sour ales that I've made, and make hard ciders pretty much indefinitely. And if the restriction on alcohol was actually effective, I'd have a tempting opportunity to make good money selling my knowledge and products to the people I trust.

But we've been down that road before as a country, eh?
 
I don't drink so controls would not effect me and I don't really see what the big deal is in controlling something that causes so many deaths. If only one life could be saved, I am all for it! :roll:
 
You're talking shades of grey here. And obviously anyone above the legal limit behind a wheel doesn't care enough about their own safety or anyone else, that's why they go to jail. If I go to just shoot someone and end up killing them will the law note the difference?

The correct answer is that it shouldn't.... Same disregard for the lives of others.
 
It already is controlled. But this is actually about guns.

Alcohol, used as intended, is a lot less dangerous than guns when used as intended.
Guns provide food and protect the bearer and members of their family when used as intended. I think that is a far more useful/noble intent than the consumption of alcohol. At least that is what mine are intended for.

May I add that alcohol is far more dangerous than guns when not used as intended......
 
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Guns provide food and protect the bearer and members of their family when used as intended. I think that is a far more useful/noble intent than the consumption of alcohol. At least that is what mine are intended for.

Fermentation was apparently an important way to preserve some calories to get you through the winter once upon a time in particularly cold climates.
 
Fermentation was apparently an important way to preserve some calories to get you through the winter once upon a time in particularly cold climates.

Good point. It was also used to make use of surplus grain. I guess that is kind of noble. Hehehehe
 
First off, prohibition did work.

Not to be all semantic, but it really does depend on how you define success. Like with current illegal narcotics, alcohol prohibition promoted a vast profitable underground network, increased the prison population, and as I mentioned earlier the government was actively spiking ethanol with methanol in its shipments to make sure bootleggers suffered steeply. Foremost it put a lot of downward cultural pressure on the USA to conform to an alien concept of not drinking when the surrounding countries and most of the entire world were doing it. Sure it probably stemmed some cirrhosis cases but who cares when freedoms are so curtailed?

We don't outlaw automobiles because it's arguable that more people would die/be negatively socially effected, than if they weren't banned.

The restrictions on driving (like needing a license) come from that very principle. You have to prove you understand the rules of the road and are not an obvious danger to other people before the State will give you permission to drive a vehicle. Your own argument is working against you now. By that logic we should do the same thing with guns because although most people are responsible, we can't trust the common good to prevail and must therefore ensure that people are qualified!

We can allow light purchases of alcohol, while prohibiting moderate and heavy purchases.

People who want more will just turn to the black market as they always do. Have anti-pot laws stopped pot use? Not by a long shot. Any other drug? Nope. Not even making drugs prescription only has stopped their illegal distribution. The law functions in title only and dishes out punishments that aid the private prison system, but it does not stop substance use. Not now, not ever.

Heavy users increase their risk of cancer and have negative social effects like domestic violence and child abuse.

I understand why you made this thread, but it's still a flawed comparison. Alcohol can be made from home made stills which was what happened during prohibition. It can't really be stopped. Guns can't be made in the average person's home and so gun violence could be DRASTICALLY reduced by outlawing guns or restricting them to people who prove they are qualified. Gun violence will always happen but the death rate per capita would drop.

In reality I don't support gun or drug laws. I believe in personal responsibility and supporting people who have made honest mistakes and want to change their lives, such as alcoholic addicts.
 
Good point. It was also used to make use of surplus grain. I guess that is kind of noble. Hehehehe

Yes, it probably made your Sasquatch wife a little more tolerable to be with in Pre-Lady Bic era of human civilization to boot.
 
Yes, it probably made your Sasquatch wife a little more tolerable to be with in Pre-Lady Bic era of human civilization to boot.

Aren't they primarily Canadian? My wife is British. I guess it is a part of Great Britain though.
 
Again, and again, and again, there's a difference between unintentionally killing someone while intoxicated and shooting up a school.

Again, again and again, I'm not saying they are the same.
However, if the end result, is the death of an innocent person/people, the individual who helped cause it, should be restricted from purchasing the things that played large part in doing so.


And to be able to own a gun requires more extensive background check because a gun can most definitely cause greater violence, on per case basis, than alcohol.

Firearm background checks are near instantaneous in most instances, unless there are a lot of purchases during the day.
If someone is a serial DUI offender, why should they still have ready access to retail alcohol, explain this.
 
Not to be all semantic, but it really does depend on how you define success. Like with current illegal narcotics, alcohol prohibition promoted a vast profitable underground network, increased the prison population, and as I mentioned earlier the government was actively spiking ethanol with methanol in its shipments to make sure bootleggers suffered steeply. Foremost it put a lot of downward cultural pressure on the USA to conform to an alien concept of not drinking when the surrounding countries and most of the entire world were doing it. Sure it probably stemmed some cirrhosis cases but who cares when freedoms are so curtailed?

I'm defining success as reducing overall consumption and disease.
The NY times article described the crime rate, as largely the same, before and after prohibition.

The restrictions on driving (like needing a license) come from that very principle. You have to prove you understand the rules of the road and are not an obvious danger to other people before the State will give you permission to drive a vehicle. Your own argument is working against you now. By that logic we should do the same thing with guns because although most people are responsible, we can't trust the common good to prevail and must therefore ensure that people are qualified!

You can own a car, without a license.
You can own a firearm, without a license.

You cannot conceal carry, in the majority of places, without a license.
You cannot drive on public roads without a license.

More or less, they are the same.

People who want more will just turn to the black market as they always do. Have anti-pot laws stopped pot use? Not by a long shot. Any other drug? Nope. Not even making drugs prescription only has stopped their illegal distribution. The law functions in title only and dishes out punishments that aid the private prison system, but it does not stop substance use. Not now, not ever.

Of course it won't stop it, but it would reduce it.


I understand why you made this thread, but it's still a flawed comparison. Alcohol can be made from home made stills which was what happened during prohibition. It can't really be stopped. Guns can't be made in the average person's home and so gun violence could be DRASTICALLY reduced by outlawing guns or restricting them to people who prove they are qualified. Gun violence will always happen but the death rate per capita would drop.

They're using 3d printers to make firearm receivers, out of plastic.
It's still in the test phase, but once they perfect it, gun control is going to be mighty difficult.


In reality I don't support gun or drug laws. I believe in personal responsibility and supporting people who have made honest mistakes and want to change their lives, such as alcoholic addicts.

Of course, but this thread is designed to question the reasoning behind two things, which could cause societal harm and to see if people would allow exceptions for some deaths, but not for others.
Either people need to be consistent with restrictions or they're showing bias.
 
Again, again and again, I'm not saying they are the same.
However, if the end result, is the death of an innocent person/people, the individual who helped cause it, should be restricted from purchasing the things that played large part in doing so.

Firearm background checks are near instantaneous in most instances, unless there are a lot of purchases during the day.
If someone is a serial DUI offender, why should they still have ready access to retail alcohol, explain this.

Harry, if I chug a six pack of say Dr. Pepper, chances are that I can correctly predict my behavior after I chug them. On the other hand, if I chug a six pack of beer...chances are that I can't correctly predict my behavior other than the obvious..."I'll be intoxicated". But then what will my behavior be?

The reality is that alcohol can be bought in nearly every place one can purchase bread or milk. Now my point is that the world is willing to sell a product that impairs one's ability to predict their own behavior if consumed in a quantity that intoxicates them...and societies will fight to the death for the right to be able to intoxicate their self despite knowing the potential consequences.

And yet...nobody wants to stand responsible for the consequences...knowing full well that booze impairs judgment and behavior...and will scream bloody murder when an intoxicated person can't control their behavior after consuming alcohol.

Now if there was a test of some sort to identify people at birth...who will have behavior problems after drinking alcohol...all would be good if society could keep those individuals from drinking. But I'm inclined to believe that despite any law saying a person tested to be a potential risk to society if he or she drank alcohol...would bust his or her ass finding ways to drink.

I can't think of any way possible to prevent people from engaging in horrible behaviors as a result of drinking...other than...like in Texas if a person is convicted of more than 3 DUI's...they're going to the State Correctional Facility, otherwise known as "prison". But so many of those folks get out of prison, and guess what they do? Yep...they repeat.
 
Harry, if I chug a six pack of say Dr. Pepper, chances are that I can correctly predict my behavior after I chug them. On the other hand, if I chug a six pack of beer...chances are that I can't correctly predict my behavior other than the obvious..."I'll be intoxicated". But then what will my behavior be?

The reality is that alcohol can be bought in nearly every place one can purchase bread or milk. Now my point is that the world is willing to sell a product that impairs one's ability to predict their own behavior if consumed in a quantity that intoxicates them...and societies will fight to the death for the right to be able to intoxicate their self despite knowing the potential consequences.

And yet...nobody wants to stand responsible for the consequences...knowing full well that booze impairs judgment and behavior...and will scream bloody murder when an intoxicated person can't control their behavior after consuming alcohol.

Now if there was a test of some sort to identify people at birth...who will have behavior problems after drinking alcohol...all would be good if society could keep those individuals from drinking. But I'm inclined to believe that despite any law saying a person tested to be a potential risk to society if he or she drank alcohol...would bust his or her ass finding ways to drink.

I can't think of any way possible to prevent people from engaging in horrible behaviors as a result of drinking...other than...like in Texas if a person is convicted of more than 3 DUI's...they're going to the State Correctional Facility, otherwise known as "prison". But so many of those folks get out of prison, and guess what they do? Yep...they repeat.

And largely I agree with all that.

I am perfectly willing to accept, that with our privileges (aka "rights") and freedoms, there may be negative consequences, very bad consequences.
I'm not going to cover up that guns are dangerous, especially in the wrong hands.

I'm tired of the pile on, when it comes to guns.
Legal and responsible gun owners, can't control the irresponsible and illegal gun owners, anymore than the safe drinkers can control the unsafe drinkers.
Continuing to punish legal and responsible guns owners, for the actions of the bad, is the punishment not fitting the crime.
 
Good point. It was also used to make use of surplus grain. I guess that is kind of noble. Hehehehe

Red wine is good for your heart and your prostate too. Can't say that about a bullet.
 
Harry, if I chug a six pack of say Dr. Pepper, chances are that I can correctly predict my behavior after I chug them. On the other hand, if I chug a six pack of beer...chances are that I can't correctly predict my behavior other than the obvious..."I'll be intoxicated". But then what will my behavior be?

The reality is that alcohol can be bought in nearly every place one can purchase bread or milk. Now my point is that the world is willing to sell a product that impairs one's ability to predict their own behavior if consumed in a quantity that intoxicates them...and societies will fight to the death for the right to be able to intoxicate their self despite knowing the potential consequences.

And yet...nobody wants to stand responsible for the consequences...knowing full well that booze impairs judgment and behavior...and will scream bloody murder when an intoxicated person can't control their behavior after consuming alcohol.

Now if there was a test of some sort to identify people at birth...who will have behavior problems after drinking alcohol...all would be good if society could keep those individuals from drinking. But I'm inclined to believe that despite any law saying a person tested to be a potential risk to society if he or she drank alcohol...would bust his or her ass finding ways to drink.

I can't think of any way possible to prevent people from engaging in horrible behaviors as a result of drinking...other than...like in Texas if a person is convicted of more than 3 DUI's...they're going to the State Correctional Facility, otherwise known as "prison". But so many of those folks get out of prison, and guess what they do? Yep...they repeat.

Interesting thing, this state of
Texas and their laws.
Do they work ?
Yes, as, the next Texas statue will be "three strikes and you are out" , aka, in Texas, DEATH..
And, as we all know, this death penalty works well in reducing crime........
The thing is, few have the stomach for alcohol prohibition..
For many, alcohol is a necessity.
As of now, I believe we do have the "stomach" for gun control...which is nothing more than 100% background checks and restrictions on assault weapons..
And, BTW, we do have alcohol control in Pennsylvania, AKA "state stores", which the conservatives wish to do away with.
With PA's controls, how do they compare to Texas (for one) ??
We need controls, man is NOT fully developed..He has a long way to go.
 
To those that are arguing that "gun control" and "alcohol control" are too different to compare, I ask: In what ways are they different? The similarities are clear enough: unregulated, both cause deaths.

People are not so evil as a whole to choose to kill other people more often than accidentally kill people, as evidenced by the fact that the number of alcohol related deaths is 2.5x's the amount of gun-related deaths annually (Alcohol linked to 75,000 U.S. deaths a year - Health - Addictions | NBC News vs How many gun deaths are in the US every year)

Also factoring in the fact that only 47% of Americans own guns (Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993) while 67% of Americans drink (U.S. Drinking Rate Edges Up Slightly to 25-Year High), reduces the cause of death per capita death ratio from 2.5x's to 1.75x's. In short, alcohol is 1.75x's more likely to kill than gun ownership. (not including unreported gun ownership - which would likely significantly increase the death per capita ratio of alcohol killing more than gun-owners as so many gun-related deaths are homicides from weapons retrieved illegally)

Why are so many for regulating guns more, but not alcohol when alcohol is more harmful to society? I believe I know the answer: It's similar to how if a Hurricane kills 6,000 people, that's a tragedy which we will mourn for half of a generation. If an act of terror kills 3,000 people (9/11), it will be mourned by the nation for possibly centuries. Acts of intent are psychologically more damaging to the people. All other arguments aside regarding whether regulating guns will increase or decrease crime statistics, I ask those that are for regulating guns, but oppose regulating alcohol: Is it because of safety or because of your personal psychological comfort that you wish to regulate guns? I ask that you put the facts before you and instead of making an emotional decision to regulate guns but not alcohol, see that the terror is just as real in both cases.

Alcohol induced deaths are more of a threat to this nation; Our willingness to accept them as a part of our society is our willingness to stand up for freedom. If you're willing to undermine those freedoms for a cause less damaging, you are giving up your ground to stand on for freedoms more damaging, such as alcohol. I only suggest you consider other options other than government regulations to give your mind peace. That other option for me is gun-ownership. I have a lot of peace of mind having a gun very near me while I sleep.
 
And largely I agree with all that.

I am perfectly willing to accept, that with our privileges (aka "rights") and freedoms, there may be negative consequences, very bad consequences.
I'm not going to cover up that guns are dangerous, especially in the wrong hands.

I'm tired of the pile on, when it comes to guns.
The "pile on" must continue until GOOD legislation is enacted.
Legal and responsible gun owners, can't control the irresponsible and illegal gun owners, anymore than the safe drinkers can control the unsafe drinkers.
Continuing to punish legal and responsible guns owners, for the actions of the bad, is the punishment not fitting the crime.
You know, or should know that this is NOT true.
The mother of the mass murderer is a good case in point.
People who care about others can do a lot...
She may have lived in fear of her own son...
Where was the father ?
Its called families....communities....society....easier in the cities where people are so close....out in the country there can be KKK rallies and only the cows would be bothered
 
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