• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Technology and education

Read the question. You agree?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 18.8%

  • No

    Votes: 26 81.3%
  • Total voters
    32
Ikari said:
That's exactly the point. I have known a wide array of Engineers, Engineering being tied closely to Physics, the research and study is intense and requires hands on experience. Art falls into this as well. You can paint a picture at home, but how many have kilns, or the industrial machinery required for certain forms of sculpting? Philosophy flourishes from the academic environment as well and benefits from on campus interaction. The hardcore academic subjects require an academic presence; online alone cannot cut it. Online can go well with cookie-cutter or cog type education, but engineering isn't of that category. Engineers have to think.
Click to expand...
Precisely. How do I work with my fellow engineers (the single MOST important aspect of engineering) on building a robot over the internet?
 
Peter Grimm said:
What do you think?
Click to expand...

I say yes.I am surprised that teachers in India,China or some other country are not already being skyped to classrooms to colleges in the US. I bet colleges can save money by hiring only a handful of teachers in India,China or some other country and just pay a tech to turn a projector on and off and maintain it.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Precisely. How do I work with my fellow engineers (the single MOST important aspect of engineering) on building a robot over the internet?
Click to expand...

Really? Dude, you can totally find internet forums dedicated to building robots.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Precisely. How do I work with my fellow engineers (the single MOST important aspect of engineering) on building a robot over the internet?
Click to expand...
From a civil engineering point of view you can always tell the cookbook engineers (cogs) from the ones that actually go out into the field. Their blueprints may look the same in the office but the errors skyrocket the more they stay behind the desk. You can't engineer to match the real world if you never see it.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Really? Dude, you can totally find internet forums dedicated to building robots.
Click to expand...

You have a tendency to hone in on one piece of the sentence and ignore the rest. I said working with your fellow engineers. Companies don't work through Internet forums. They work in collaberative teams in person.
 
Ikari said:
That's exactly the point. I have known a wide array of Engineers, Engineering being tied closely to Physics, the research and study is intense and requires hands on experience. Art falls into this as well. You can paint a picture at home, but how many have kilns, or the industrial machinery required for certain forms of sculpting? Philosophy flourishes from the academic environment as well and benefits from on campus interaction. The hardcore academic subjects require an academic presence; online alone cannot cut it. Online can go well with cookie-cutter or cog type education, but engineering isn't of that category. Engineers have to think.
Click to expand...

Ideally, young engineers-to-be would be educated online while interning somewhere. Same for the other disciplines.

The thing is, Ikari, engineers actually have economic value. They are prized, and have no trouble finding work. A young engineer could intern somewhere, say Texas Instruments, and use all their cool stuff while learning theory via interactive online courses.
 
Ikari said:
Some, the hybrid subjects and the non-academic subjects can be moved to mostly online. Any true academic pursuit will still take place at University.
Click to expand...

Now you're overgeneralizing, I think, about the nature of "true academic pursuit."

Distance education delivery systems are more diverse than most people think. It's come a long, long way since ye olde days of WebCT.

Hybrid courses (half chalk-and-talk/half online) are becoming more popular because they meet the need that many learners have for human interaction (and as engineers on this thread are pointing out, literally hands-on experience) while also providing the opportunity for the academic institution to manage enrollment and for the student to wisely manage time. I love the synchronous/asynchronous synergy.

No need to worry about the comparative quality either; the accrediting agencies are focused on ensuring quality control in distance education, and the feds are also taking new interest too.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
You have a tendency to hone in on one piece of the sentence and ignore the rest. I said working with your fellow engineers. Companies don't work through Internet forums. They work in collaberative teams in person.
Click to expand...

So do you. Maybe it's an engineer's trait. See, you guys think I'm saying that all universities should just close up shop, when actually what I'm suggesting is a three-prong approach:

1.) More emphasis on and more credit hours toward internships, paid or otherwise, for human interaction, useful practical advice, and contacts

2.) University labs for lab assignments and experimentation and

3.) Online courses for lectures and theory.

Go back and read every single post I've made in this thread, and that's what I keep saying. You guys keep hearing something different.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Ideally, young engineers-to-be would be educated online while interning somewhere. Same for the other disciplines.

The thing is, Ikari, engineers actually have economic value. They are prized, and have no trouble finding work. A young engineer could intern somewhere, say Texas Instruments, and use all their cool stuff while learning theory via interactive online courses.
Click to expand...
Germany has an option to do something similar. Out of high school you can apply for a company in what is called a dual study. You get accepted to a company, then you start college at their partner university. You alternate 6 months in school, 6 months as an intern. You get paid a part time salary year round. After 3 years you have a bachelors, 18 mos experience, and a full time position. I think this is a great model and I almost did it myself. None of this however is online.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Germany has an option to do something similar. Out of high school you can apply for a company in what is called a dual study. You get accepted to a company, then you start college at their partner university. You alternate 6 months in school, 6 months as an intern. You get paid a part time salary year round. After 3 years you have a bachelors, 18 mos experience, and a full time position. I think this is a great model and I almost did it myself. None of this however is online.
Click to expand...

I didn't know that. It sounds like a great system, those damn Germans can be pretty smart sometimes.
 
There are certain areas of study that will always require a classroom, the internet won't replace these.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Ideally, young engineers-to-be would be educated online while interning somewhere. Same for the other disciplines.

The thing is, Ikari, engineers actually have economic value. They are prized, and have no trouble finding work. A young engineer could intern somewhere, say Texas Instruments, and use all their cool stuff while learning theory via interactive online courses.
Click to expand...

Engineers have a lot of value, thanks for the snobby attitude (which I find ironic since you soooo want to stamp out the academic snob). Interning is not necessary unless you're making a cog. Engineers aren't meant to be cogs, we need thinkers and that's why they are prized. So instead, academic research aids well better. Plus someone has to do that research since it will ultimately lead to new engineering solutions that cannot be realized purely through private business.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
The internet is going to take a bigger and bigger role in education, that is a certainty. However, I don't think it will get rid of traditional classrooms altogether. Students need to have interaction with real people. The internet and computers can't answer complex questions that the students have, and it can not replace social interaction and collaborative work, both of which are extremely important in just about every career field.
Click to expand...

Online classrooms bro.
Already been invented.

Social interaction is fine, but from what I remember from school, we didn't do a whole lot of group activities, it was mostly individual.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Germany has an option to do something similar. Out of high school you can apply for a company in what is called a dual study. You get accepted to a company, then you start college at their partner university. You alternate 6 months in school, 6 months as an intern. You get paid a part time salary year round. After 3 years you have a bachelors, 18 mos experience, and a full time position. I think this is a great model and I almost did it myself. None of this however is online.
Click to expand...

Here's an interesting note. For their Engineering degrees, they have to go out and "work" in a lab or business. The chair of the Physics Department at CSU at the time was Hocheimer...or however you spell that....German. So he gets all about having these engineers come and spend a few months in our labs as part of this process. We got 2 German Engineers who turned out to be absolute crap. They couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag. Eventually we told one of them to take the rest of the time off and see Colorado cause it was WAY better than having them in the lab where all they would do is make more work for me.

Cogs....they're not that great.

Note: That's not to say all German Engineers are bad, only that their system isn't a fail safe.
 
Ikari said:
Engineers have a lot of value, thanks for the snobby attitude (which I find ironic since you soooo want to stamp out the academic snob). Interning is not necessary unless you're making a cog. Engineers aren't meant to be cogs, we need thinkers and that's why they are prized. So instead, academic research aids well better. Plus someone has to do that research since it will ultimately lead to new engineering solutions that cannot be realized purely through private business.
Click to expand...

A lot of the pre internet engineering was formed off campus.
I think that was during the explosion of the industrial revolution.

There's no real requirement for it to be done at an academic location.
 
Ikari said:
Engineers have a lot of value, thanks for the snobby attitude (which I find ironic since you soooo want to stamp out the academic snob). Interning is not necessary unless you're making a cog. Engineers aren't meant to be cogs, we need thinkers and that's why they are prized. So instead, academic research aids well better. Plus someone has to do that research since it will ultimately lead to new engineering solutions that cannot be realized purely through private business.
Click to expand...

You're misquoting me. Actually, I said that the advancement of online education could end academic snobbery; which is true, in the sense that lower-cost education could be made available to a much wider pool of students. Frankly, I find it odd that you won't support this and I see no justification for your position, aside from a skewed sense of self-preservation.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
A lot of the pre internet engineering was formed off campus.
I think that was during the explosion of the industrial revolution.

There's no real requirement for it to be done at an academic location.
Click to expand...

There is not. However, for the advanced Engineer, it will take place there as Academia is where the resources are aggregated to such level as to allow for the necessary research into engineering. A lot of "pre-internet engineering" or whatever your're trying to claim may have been formed off campus (I'd like some statistics on that, BTW); but where do most of those people meet?
 
Ikari said:
Here's an interesting note. For their Engineering degrees, they have to go out and "work" in a lab or business. The chair of the Physics Department at CSU at the time was Hocheimer...or however you spell that....German. So he gets all about having these engineers come and spend a few months in our labs as part of this process. We got 2 German Engineers who turned out to be absolute crap. They couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag. Eventually we told one of them to take the rest of the time off and see Colorado cause it was WAY better than having them in the lab where all they would do is make more work for me.

Cogs....they're not that great.

Note: That's not to say all German Engineers are bad, only that their system isn't a fail safe.
Click to expand...

I think it's fairly common knowledge that Germany produces very good engineers. I'll leave it at that.
 
Ikari said:
Engineers have a lot of value, thanks for the snobby attitude (which I find ironic since you soooo want to stamp out the academic snob). Interning is not necessary unless you're making a cog. Engineers aren't meant to be cogs, we need thinkers and that's why they are prized. So instead, academic research aids well better. Plus someone has to do that research since it will ultimately lead to new engineering solutions that cannot be realized purely through private business.
Click to expand...

Internships allow a student to get his foot in the door, so to speak, at a company. It's a great way to secure a job for the future.
 
Peter Grimm said:
You're misquoting me. Actually, I said that the advancement of online education could end academic snobbery; which is true, in the sense that lower-cost education could be made available to a much wider pool of students. Frankly, I find it odd that you won't support this and I see no justification for your position, aside from a skewed sense of self-preservation.
Click to expand...

I'm not against the online classroom. I'm saying that you're not replacing academia and your little "I hope this crushes academic snobbery" BS is nothing more than a pipe dream that is likely making you so hostile against academia. You are not going to get rid of Academia, you will not get rid of the Lecture Hall. All pure academic pursuit, such as science, art, math, philosophy, music, etc. will always be found within the halls of Academia and the tops in most of those fields (particularly Engineering, Science, and Math) will be born from Academia, not your little cog world of non-thinkers.

There will be integration of online courses, I think entire schools like the Business School can likely be replaced with online only courses. Other subjects you will be unable to get away from it, and if much of your degree counts on research (like science, engineering, math, etc.); you will have to be on campus...a lot.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Internships allow a student to get his foot in the door, so to speak, at a company. It's a great way to secure a job for the future.
Click to expand...

But they're so prized that they can get a job anywhere, yes? So said you. Ergo, they need not this "foot in the door". And thus they can do the necessary research for engineering that cannot be supported by the private sector.
 
Ikari said:
There is not. However, for the advanced Engineer, it will take place there as Academia is where the resources are aggregated to such level as to allow for the necessary research into engineering. A lot of "pre-internet engineering" or whatever your're trying to claim may have been formed off campus (I'd like some statistics on that, BTW); but where do most of those people meet?
Click to expand...

Just because it happens that way now, doesn't mean, it will or should in the future.
In all honesty, I have a sort of chip on my shoulder with institutional research.

Laws have been created which prevent more non institutional engineering, especially chemical engineering.
Trying to buy regents, is a bitch, if you're not an institution.
To me, it's sort of an ego trip for institutions, to think they should the primary source of creation and building.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Just because it happens that way now, doesn't mean, it will or should in the future.
In all honesty, I have a sort of chip on my shoulder with institutional research.

Laws have been created which prevent more non institutional engineering, especially chemical engineering.
Trying to buy regents, is a bitch, if you're not an institution.
To me, it's sort of an ego trip for institutions, to think they should the primary source of creation and building.
Click to expand...

There are some odd rules that does hinder some amount of resource aggregation by non-academics. But that's mostly dumb ass government rules that have made that. Academia IS the primary source of basic research because base scientific and engineering research is not feasible in the private sector. That's why we subsidize it with slave labor, i.e. the Grad Student.
 
Ikari said:
There are some odd rules that does hinder some amount of resource aggregation by non-academics. But that's mostly dumb ass government rules that have made that. Academia IS the primary source of basic research because base scientific and engineering research is not feasible in the private sector. That's why we subsidize it with slave labor, i.e. the Grad Student.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it's government or industry protectionism.
I don't have any data either way to support, either side.

I just know, that some chemicals are off limits to "home" chemists and that they have to be synthesized from other sources.
Academia has a purpose, but I believe that current state of things, creates a sort of self fulfilling prophecy.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm not sure if it's government or industry protectionism.
I don't have any data either way to support, either side.

I just know, that some chemicals are off limits to "home" chemists and that they have to be synthesized from other sources.
Academia has a purpose, but I believe that current state of things, creates a sort of self fulfilling prophecy.
Click to expand...

You should see some of the rules on the labs...you'd think that we were handling weapons grade plutonium or something when it's just optical grade methanol.

I think one of the real problems with Academia is that it's being treated as a business when it's not really a business. Dilutes the education and pulls focus from where it should be.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom