• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

How many here belong to a union?

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
Sig said:
And what if you do not "get what you earn"? What if you are paid a pittance for working your ass off?
Click to expand...

Then either my work is low quality (and only worth a pittance), or I am foolishly selling my labor for less than it is worth. In which case, I will happily go work for the competition at higher compensation, and help them take the market share of my former idiotic employer.
 
cpwill said:
Then either my work is low quality (and only worth a pittance), or I am foolishly selling my labor for less than it is worth. In which case, I will happily go work for the competition at higher compensation, and help them take the market share of my former idiotic employer.
Click to expand...

And what if neither is the case? What if you work your ass off and the competition is not offering any better a wage since, like your present employer, is engaged in a race to the bottom in regard to labor costs?
 
Sig said:
And what if neither is the case? What if you work your ass off and the competition is not offering any better a wage since, like your present employer, is engaged in a race to the bottom in regard to labor costs?
Click to expand...

Then my labor is apparently worth little, and I need to begin self-improvement; either within or outside of my current occupational ladder.
 
cpwill said:
Then my labor is apparently worth little, and I need to begin self-improvement; either within or outside of my current occupational ladder.
Click to expand...

Yes, self-improvement. Now, you are getting it.

This is the whole point of collective bargaining: self-improvement.
 
Sig said:
Yes, self-improvement. Now, you are getting it.

This is the whole point of collective bargaining: self-improvement.
Click to expand...

Incorrect. The "whole point" of collective bargaining is coercion in order to avoid "self-improvement". If my labor was worth little, I would go self-improve. I wouldn't convince everyone else to threaten the company unless I was compensated more than I deserve.
 
There isn't really an option for me to vote for. I've never worked in a unionized job, and probably never will, but I'd join a union if I had to to find work. It wouldn't be my first choice though.
 
cpwill said:
Incorrect. The "whole point" of collective bargaining is coercion in order to avoid "self-improvement". If my labor was worth little, I would go self-improve.
Click to expand...

Apparently, you do not consider obtaining a better wage and health benefits as a form of self-improvement.

I wouldn't convince everyone else to threaten the company unless I was compensated more than I deserve.
Click to expand...

But you might if you were being compensated for less than you deserve.
 
molten_dragon said:
There isn't really an option for me to vote for. I've never worked in a unionized job, and probably never will, but I'd join a union if I had to to find work. It wouldn't be my first choice though.
Click to expand...

Yeah, because non-union shops always pay better, right?
 
Sig said:
Apparently, you do not consider obtaining a better wage and health benefits as a form of self-improvement.
Click to expand...

I do not consider taking those things when I have not earned them to be a form of self-improvement. I consider that to be a form of self-debasement.

But you might if you were being compensated for less than you deserve.
Click to expand...


As stated, if I was being compensated less than I deserved I would go elsewhere. If no one else could offer to compensate me more, then apparently I am not being compensated less than I deserve, as my labor is being compensated correctly relative to its' place on the supply/demand curve.
 
Sig said:
Yeah, because non-union shops always pay better, right?
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with that. First off, I don't work in a field that is unionized. And I simply don't support the concept of unions. I think that they used to do a lot of good for workers before labor laws were put into place, but they've become less of a necessity to prevent abuse, and more of a mechanism for unionized employees to get luxuries that non-union employees don't have.
 
cpwill said:
I do not consider taking those things when I have not earned them to be a form of self-improvement. I consider that to be a form of self-debasement.
Click to expand...

Do you consider them a form of self-improvement when you have earned them?

As stated, if I was being compensated less than I deserved I would go elsewhere.
Click to expand...

What if you had no place left to go? What if you were being a paid a "fair market wage" no matter where worked and were still barely subsisting?

If no one else could offer to compensate me more, then apparently I am not being compensated less than I deserve, as my labor is being compensated correctly relative to its' place on the supply/demand curve.
Click to expand...

Now, that is what I consider to be a form of self-debasement. Despite what you or others may think, you are not a commodity. You are a human being, man! Try to have a little more self-respect.

"Supply/demand curve"... What are you, kidding me?
 
Last edited:
cpwill said:
Because unionized industries and business survive, right?
Click to expand...

Some capitalists will stop at nothing to exploit human labor, even if it means outsourcing to non-organized labor markets in developing countries, or taking advantage of desperate illegal immigrants who cannot legally organize.

Doesn't make it right.

GTG
 
Last edited:
molten_dragon said:
It has nothing to do with that. First off, I don't work in a field that is unionized. And I simply don't support the concept of unions. I think that they used to do a lot of good for workers before labor laws were put into place, but they've become less of a necessity to prevent abuse, and more of a mechanism for unionized employees to get luxuries that non-union employees don't have.
Click to expand...

NEWS FLASH: It was the labor unions which got the labor laws on the books. It is the labor unions which keep labor laws from being completely disregarded.

"I simply don't support the concept of unions."

Yeah, yeah, yeah... You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
 
Sig said:
Do you consider them a form of self-improvement when you have earned them?
Click to expand...

If i have earned them then either my employer or his competition will seek to leverage me by offering them. The competitor which most closely mirrors worth with compensation will thus have a market advantage.

What if you had no place left to go? What if you were being a paid a "fair market wage" no matter where worked and were still barely subsisting?
Click to expand...

Then I would seek to change my position by either changing the quality or the nature of my work.

For example, I was an infantryman. Infantrymen can basically go become firemen or cops, or some form of menial labor. I wanted a higher standard of living for my family, so I earned a masters degree while working full time and became an Analyst. Now my labor is worth much more.

Now, that is what I consider to be a form of self-debasement.
Click to expand...

On the contrary - that is a statement of self-worth, of self-power, of individual responsibility. That is a statement that I have the ability to alter my conditions through application of my abilities, that is a statement that the world shall treat me primarily as I determine.

Despite what you or others may think, you are not a commodity. You are a human being, man! Try to have a little more self-respect.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am a human being. However, my worth as a human being is beyond monetary compensation. My labor is what is under discussion here, not my being.

"Supply/demand curve"... What are you, kidding me?
Click to expand...

Not at all. Labor exists on a supply/demand curve, just like everything else. That's why most new lawyers actually don't get paid that well, but engineers do - because we make a ton of lawyers in this economy, and not that many engineers.
 
Sig said:
Some capitalists will stop at nothing to exploit human labor, even if it means outsourcing to non-organized labor markets in developing countries
Click to expand...

Which has resulted in lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty. Those are human beings, and you'll get no complaints from me, except how much faster can we make that process work.
 
Sig said:
"I simply don't support the concept of unions."

Yeah, yeah, yeah... You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
Click to expand...

No, I'm quite informed about unions. I work with a lot of people who are part of the UAW, and I know what they do and don't do for their members, and for companies. I'm not sure why you seem to have so much trouble believing that someone can be well informed about unions and still not want to belong to one.

And unions are not the only things keeping labor laws from being disregarded. There are plenty of places that aren't unionized, and that follow labor laws and safety regulations. There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions, they aren't common.
 
molten_dragon said:
No, I'm quite informed about unions. I work with a lot of people who are part of the UAW, and I know what they do and don't do for their members, and for companies. I'm not sure why you seem to have so much trouble believing that someone can be well informed about unions and still not want to belong to one.

And unions are not the only things keeping labor laws from being disregarded. There are plenty of places that aren't unionized, and that follow labor laws and safety regulations. There are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions, they aren't common.
Click to expand...

And there are plenty that DON'T too, and this is more commonplace in certain industries, such as the construction industry. My ex joined LIUNA because he was sick and tired of being crapped on by his employers constantly. They can't get away with that with union members though.
 
Kal'Stang said:
2: Unions brought about alot of the changes. Including many of the safety measures that are now law. The minimum wage etc etc. But now that all of those are implemented, including a federal department to report unsafe work areas, unions have become obsolete. Now they are just a drain and not a benefit.
Click to expand...
Chances are if you ask the employees within, you might get a different response.
 
a351 said:
Chances are if you ask the employees within, you might get a different response.
Click to expand...

Yeah? What percent of workers stop paying dues after right-to-work is passed in a state?
 
cpwill said:
Because unionized industries and business survive, right?
Click to expand...
Given the right set of circumstances and market share, unionization can be a viable option and sustainable to boot. The German Auto Industry being the foremost example. That's not to say that the US labor market or auto industry is analogous, but it does throw a monkey wrench in the theory that unionization condemns an industry to insolvency by default.
 
a351 said:
Given the right set of circumstances and market share, unionization can be a viable option and sustainable to boot. The German Auto Industry being the foremost example. That's not to say that the US labor market or auto industry is analogous, but it does throw a monkey wrench in the theory that unionization condemns an industry to insolvency by default.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't argue by default. In cases of a monopsony I would even argue unionization may be desirable (excepting government service). But the trend is also pretty clear. Unions tend to kill the businesses and industries they attach themselves to.
 
cpwill said:
Yeah? What percent of workers stop paying dues after right-to-work is passed in a state?
Click to expand...
Not a clue off the top of my head, but that's not exactly pertinent to my statement. The poster I was responding to arbitrarily stated that union membership was in fact detrimental and no longer offered anything of value (presumably to consumers of said industry or the employees within.) A patently false statement, unless you make the assumption that all those who lobby for and ardently defend the right to unionize and remain so are simply masochists en masse.
 
a351 said:
Not a clue off the top of my head, but that's not exactly pertinent to my statement. The poster I was responding to arbitrarily stated that union membership was in fact detrimental and no longer offered anything of value (presumably to consumers of said industry or the employees within.) A patently false statement, unless you make the assumption that all those who lobby for and ardently defend the right to unionize and remain so are simply masochists en masse.
Click to expand...

A monospony is a single purchaser (similar to a monopoly, which is a single seller). I would argue union membership is mostly detrimental, and takes special circumstances to be beneficial - and that is why when states pass right-to-work-laws, people flood out of them.
 
Moot said:
Well, without knowing what you do or where you work, your vague antedotal evidence proves nothing.
Click to expand...

And what can you prove? BTW, you didn't respond to the poll. Hopefully you will. I want to know if you're in a union.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom