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How many here belong a union in the public or private sector? Why? or Why not?

How many here belong to a union?

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
RabidAlpaca said:
To all the union fascists trying to force people to join organizations they don't want to join, then subsequently force them to pay for it, why don't you check out unions in Germany?

Not only is union participation substantially higher, their unions are strong enough that there is no minimum wage in Germany, yet the average union worker makes more than their American counterparts. For instance, a German auto worker makes about ~$67/hr, while the average American auto worker makes ~$33/hr.

You know what makes this special? Unions in Germany are 100% voluntary in every aspect. The unions have to strive to represent the people, not force people who don't want to be there.

Produce a union that people want to join, and they will. Stop ****ing crying and whining about nobody wanting to be in your club, it's YOUR FAULT.
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A thousand times this post is worth liking. People respond to incentives. Including union leadership.
 
EarlzP said:
I do not mean to be disrespectful but you have no idea of what you are talking about labor is one part of product cost you forgot about quality and worker productivity.
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On the contrary, if you will read above, I have no intention of forgetting these things - they are part of what move workers around on the supply/demand curve, after all. If the quality and productivity of your work his higher than your peers, then demand for you is greater, and so is compensation.

Unless you happen to work in a job field that is unionized, in which case quality and productivity is unlikely to be rewarded as much as seniority.

Again the UAW is not responsible for poor management decisions nor are they responsible for product quality or marketing
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Blaming the management for the fact that the UAW was able to cow them is stupefyingly one-sided. It's like blaming the rape victim for not putting up a good enough fight. Yeah, maybe she should have had mace. And maybe UAW shouldn't have decided to loot America's auto industry while the getting was good.

Foreign auto manufacturers kicked our butts they built a superior product to what was being built in America, better gas mileage, a more advanced better looking and more reliable automobile.
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Yup. American companies repeatedly refused to modernize, as doing so would have Harmed Innocent American Workers. So instead we got the rust belt and modern Detroit.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
To all the union fascists trying to force people to join organizations they don't want to join, then subsequently force them to pay for it, why don't you check out unions in Germany?

Not only is union participation substantially higher, their unions are strong enough that there is no minimum wage in Germany, yet the average union worker makes more than their American counterparts. For instance, a German auto worker makes about ~$67/hr, while the average American auto worker makes ~$33/hr.

You know what makes this special? Unions in Germany are 100% voluntary in every aspect. The unions have to strive to represent the people, not force people who don't want to be there.

Produce a union that people want to join, and they will. Stop ****ing crying and whining about nobody wanting to be in your club, it's YOUR FAULT.
Click to expand...

The BMW CEO makes $22 million a year. GM's CEO $7.7 million in 2011. (Thought that was very interesting.)

BMW had 100,000 employees and produced 1.4 million automobiles(2011). BMW - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
GM had 207,000 employees and produced 9 million automobiles that same year. General Motors - GM - Fortune Global 500 Top Companies

Hmmmm....this is hugely significant. I don't know what's going on here. My WAG would be that accrued pension benefits.

Seems to me that GM should be actively pursuing the German model....?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
You know what makes this special? Unions in Germany are 100% voluntary in every aspect. The unions have to strive to represent the people, not force people who don't want to be there.
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I did some looking but can not find anything about that

Do you have a link? And does that mean that VW has union and non union members working on the floor in the same position?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I did some looking but can not find anything about that

Do you have a link? And does that mean that VW has union and non union members working on the floor in the same position?
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Yeah, the link I provided, page labeled 2, second paragraph. I found it in a lot of other places in my research as well, but they were in German so I figured an English source would be best.

And yes, VW, as with any German company, may be composed of union or non-union workers. It is a freedom of association right, just as it should be here. You can't force someone to associate with someone anymore than you can force them not to.

MaggieD said:
The BMW CEO makes $22 million a year. GM's CEO $7.7 million in 2011. (Thought that was very interesting.)

BMW had 100,000 employees and produced 1.4 million automobiles(2011). BMW - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
GM had 207,000 employees and produced 9 million automobiles that same year. General Motors - GM - Fortune Global 500 Top Companies

Hmmmm....this is hugely significant. I don't know what's going on here. My WAG would be that accrued pension benefits.

Seems to me that GM should be actively pursuing the German model....?
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During my research for this I stumbled across a lot of articles listing the distinct differences that make their unions so much better than ours. The most notable being that they actually try to negotiate with the employers for the better good of both the employees AND the company, instead of just acting like a bunch of thugs trying to shake down their constituents.
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
I did some looking but can not find anything about that

Do you have a link? And does that mean that VW has union and non union members working on the floor in the same position?
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Bold: Why not allow such a thing? If a union is truely for the Working Class as they claim then it shouldn't be a problem. Getting butt sore because a non-union member benefits from unions also is just about greed imo.

I know that if I had the money, and tried to get a job at a company that was controlled by a union and I was denied that job because I refused to join the union I would fight them. I have a right to associate with who I want and being denied a job because I do not want to associate with a union is a violation of that right.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
How self-centered are you that you think you can call "dibs" on a career field, then control it? Sounds like the unions should stop stop being tyrannical, they might actually have people want to join them.

I'm more than glad to see unions fall and die as long as they carry your pathetic attitude that everybody must be a part of a union or **** off. I'm glad some states now have laws that prevent union coercion on innocent citizens. You're trying to screw workers, not employers. You really disgust me.
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Unions control certain professions for a reason. Unions control professions where if they didn't exist it would be hard to secure the wages and benefits that they do as an individual. Allowing people to choose to work in a union weakens the bargaining bailities of those that do want to work in a union and then they benefit of what the union has done without doing anything for it. There is a reason unions exist.
 
0bserver92 said:
Unions control certain professions for a reason. Unions control professions where if they didn't exist it would be hard to secure the wages and benefits that they do as an individual. Allowing people to choose to work in a union weakens the bargaining bailities of those that do want to work in a union and then they benefit of what the union has done without doing anything for it. There is a reason unions exist.
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Well, I guess Germany blows your thesis out of the water then, doesn't it?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Well, I guess Germany blows your thesis out of the water then, doesn't it?
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I don't know about Germany, I know about here, where unions have a political party to represent the interests of unions.
 
0bserver92 said:
I don't know about Germany, I know about here, where unions have a political party to represent the interests of unions.
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Funny, because I wrote you an entire post explaining about Germany. How they have higher union membership, their workers are paid more, and yet it's all entirely 100% voluntary. Your whole case has been that it just HAS to be mandatory, or it'll die, yet I can show country after country where that simply isn't true. The truth is that the unions need to change to provide something that will actually improve the quality of life of the members. Forcing anybody to join your club is rather fascist of you.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Funny, because I wrote you an entire post explaining about Germany. How they have higher union membership, their workers are paid more, and yet it's all entirely 100% voluntary. Your whole case has been that it just HAS to be mandatory, or it'll die, yet I can show country after country where that simply isn't true. The truth is that the unions need to change to provide something that will actually improve the quality of life of the members. Forcing anybody to join your club is rather fascist of you.
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You did? Was it anytime in the last 12 hours?
 
0bserver92 said:
You did? Was it anytime in the last 12 hours?
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Yes, post #248 of this thread.

RabidAlpaca said:
To all the union fascists trying to force people to join organizations they don't want to join, then subsequently force them to pay for it, why don't you check out unions in Germany?

Not only is union participation substantially higher, their unions are strong enough that there is no minimum wage in Germany, yet the average union worker makes more than their American counterparts. For instance, a German auto worker makes about ~$67/hr, while the average American auto worker makes ~$33/hr.

You know what makes this special? Unions in Germany are 100% voluntary in every aspect. The unions have to strive to represent the people, not force people who don't want to be there.

Produce a union that people want to join, and they will. Stop ****ing crying and whining about nobody wanting to be in your club, it's YOUR FAULT.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Kal'Stang said:
Bold: Why not allow such a thing? If a union is truely for the Working Class as they claim then it shouldn't be a problem. Getting butt sore because a non-union member benefits from unions also is just about greed imo.

I know that if I had the money, and tried to get a job at a company that was controlled by a union and I was denied that job because I refused to join the union I would fight them. I have a right to associate with who I want and being denied a job because I do not want to associate with a union is a violation of that right.
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It certainly is not a violation of that right

If you want to work at a specific company and the company offered you a job, with the condition of joining a union, you are not forced to work there, you can freely decide to take the job which has the condition of joining a union or not. Remember it is not your job, it is a position for employement offered to you by the company which can apply certain restrictions and conditions of employement
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
It certainly is not a violation of that right

If you want to work at a specific company and the company offered you a job, with the condition of joining a union, you are not forced to work there, you can freely decide to take the job which has the condition of joining a union or not. Remember it is not your job, it is a position for employement offered to you by the company which can apply certain restrictions and conditions of employement
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I'm not going to go as far to say it's a right, it's just a horrifically shady practice. There are some career fields where it would be near impossible to get a job without joining a union. I totally get the benefits of a union, and I think in a lot of cases they really are a great thing. If unions are so awesome, why does it have to be mandatory?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I'm not going to go as far to say it's a right, it's just a horrifically shady practice. There are some career fields where it would be near impossible to get a job without joining a union. I totally get the benefits of a union, and I think in a lot of cases they really are a great thing. If unions are so awesome, why does it have to be mandatory?
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It has been made mandatory in certain states because those not in a union in the same company generally gain the benifits of being in a union, without having to pay the union dues.


They will most work under the same contract, have the same benifits, the same right to arbitration all negiotiated by the union and the company
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
It has been made mandatory in certain states because those not in a union in the same company generally gain the benifits of being in a union, without having to pay the union dues.


They will most work under the same contract, have the same benifits, the same right to arbitration all negiotiated by the union and the company
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So you think the only reason most Americans are disgusted by unions are because of the dues? Try to peal the onion here a bit.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So you think the only reason most Americans are disgusted by unions are because of the dues? Try to peal the onion here a bit.
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Of course not

Some are jeolous that union members make so much money

Some consider it to be socialism

Some are upset at the strikes

Some in management are upset at whatr can be restrictive working regulations

Some are upset at what can make the company uncompetitive

Some are upset at the corruption in some unions (past or present, ie Teamsters)

Some are upsert at the political donations unions make to political parties they are opposed to


I expect that of the above reasons, the higher wages/benifits, political donations and the believe it is socialism are the biggest reasons of dislike from the majority of people (non management, non owner/large investors)
 
RabidAlpaca said:
To all the union fascists trying to force people to join organizations they don't want to join, then subsequently force them to pay for it, why don't you check out unions in Germany?
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I don't see anyone forcing you to join a union. In fact, you seem intent on trying to force people not to join a union.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Of course not

Some are jeolous that union members make so much money

Some consider it to be socialism

Some are upset at the strikes

Some in management are upset at whatr can be restrictive working regulations

Some are upset at what can make the company uncompetitive

Some are upset at the corruption in some unions (past or present, ie Teamsters)

Some are upsert at the political donations unions make to political parties they are opposed to


I expect that of the above reasons, the higher wages/benifits, political donations and the believe it is socialism are the biggest reasons of dislike from the majority of people (non management, non owner/large investors)
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If that's all true, then why do you believe that people should be forced to join unions? People tend to act in their own best interest. If joining a union would improve their lives, they would.

Moot said:
I don't see anyone forcing you to join a union. In fact, you seem intent on trying to force people not to join a union.
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Really? Because I've stated from the beginning that I'm pro-union. The ability for free citizens to form groups to lobby for better wages is a fundamental human right. You on the other hand want to force people into unions. I am lucky enough to be in a career (electrical engineering) that is virtually unionless. However, if I were in a career that was heavily unionized in a non-right to work state, it would be near impossible for me to get a job. You want to force other non-willing workers into unions so that your union can have more power. It's sad, and distinctly anti-liberty.
 
EarlzP said:
I can tell that you have never been on a union construction job, told many? So you are disrespectful to people regardless of the situation.
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Brick masonry and construction were my first careers, I worked on two projects involving large production plants. Both were union and a pain in the ass. You confuse honesty with being respectful, yep you are a union man
 
Moot said:
LOL Do you really believe the company cares about how well you pick peas? No, they only care about how many peas you pick. So if a pea picker picks peas faster than other pea pickers can pick peas then the company expects every pea picker to pick peas faster.
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Slow one, there are other contributors to the bottom line besides picking peas.:lamo
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Really? Because I've stated from the beginning that I'm pro-union. The ability for free citizens to form groups to lobby for better wages is a fundamental human right. You on the other hand want to force people into unions. I am lucky enough to be in a career (electrical engineering) that is virtually unionless. However, if I were in a career that was heavily unionized in a non-right to work state, it would be near impossible for me to get a job. You want to force other non-willing workers into unions so that your union can have more power. It's sad, and distinctly anti-liberty.
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You call union people "facists" in one breath and then in the next you say you're pro-union and then in the next breath you proceed to bash unions? Am I missing something here?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Of course not

Some are jeolous that union members make so much money

Some consider it to be socialism

Some are upset at the strikes

Some in management are upset at whatr can be restrictive working regulations

Some are upset at what can make the company uncompetitive

Some are upset at the corruption in some unions (past or present, ie Teamsters)

Some are upsert at the political donations unions make to political parties they are opposed to


I expect that of the above reasons, the higher wages/benifits, political donations and the believe it is socialism are the biggest reasons of dislike from the majority of people (non management, non owner/large investors)
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Also the violence and vandalism associated with the mob mentality from unions
 
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