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Do The Mentally Challenged Have Free Will??

Does Free Will Include the Mentally Challenged?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 38.5%

  • No

    Votes: 3 11.5%

  • Unsure

    Votes: 6 23.1%

  • Who cares...

    Votes: 7 26.9%
  • Total voters
    26
Bodhisattva said:
I see The religious praying at churches and stuff after horrible events like this latest school shooting. They comfort themselves with the idea that "God has a plan". Well, God gave us free will... so the idea that there is a plan kinda makes sense, to a degree. What about the mentally challenged socio-paths that commit crimes like this. Manson, Bundy, this ****tard who killed the beautiful and innocent little children. Can they have free will? They can't, in my opinion. They are ****ed in the head. They can't make rational decisions AT ALL. They don't understand consequences. Many of them lack morals.

I just wonder because the idea of free will seems to get tossed out the window when it comes to these ****s... so, logically, that shoots a hole in the entire idea that there is ANY free will.

What say you?
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The one common thread to most(all except for one, I believe...) of these mass killings is that the murderers kill themselves in the end. This tells me that their "plan" had to include the understanding that what they were about to do would result in severe consequences for themselves if they were caught alive. They had to understand that the consequences would be so severe that death would be preferable. I can't say that this is proof that they understand basic right and wrong but it does show that they understand basic actions and consequences for those actions.
 
OhIsee.Then said:
Yes, you used just one part of science, mostly supported by basic Newtonian physics, and attributed all of science to that. I was just pointing out that error with a branch of science that doesn’t support your position. Therefore science doesn’t support you.
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Oh I see, you knew what I was thinking and drew the conclusion that it's all false. I couldn't have meant a part of science? That's a pompous conclusion with no proof.

We may actually make unknowable (quantum like) decisions but they're based on a plethora of interacting forces of which we can't possibly be aware.
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Did you miss this part ^ of the quote from my comment or are you purposely, not including that I said "may" and "unknowable" < random?

All I meant from that part of my comment was that it's possible we don't have the free will we think we do. I don't actually believe that but if it's true we couldn't possibly be aware or prove it, yet.

Though determinism is more related to philosophy some forms of it can be tested empirically with ideas stemming from physics.
It is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely determined by prior states. Determinism rarely requires that perfect prediction be practically possible – only prediction in theory.
 
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ThePlayDrive said:
But "excuse" in what sense? "Excuse" as in you don't think there is any way a person could not responsible for murdering someone? "Excuse" as in you don't think that a person who murders another should be immune to punishment? I don't know what you mean by "excuse."
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Excuse as in let them off for insanity or some other "Excuse". In that manner...
 
code1211 said:
Staying away from the "all actions are cause effect and therefore determined" line of logic, this was a random act of evil. If it could have been predicted, as in a bus arriving in the morning, then it cold have been prevented. It was the result of an individual making bad choices and causing bad things.

I have been taken by the number of instances when acts that are just plain evil seem to be occurring with increasing frequency in our globalized village. Watching the first 15 minutes of any news cast in any larger city is just depressing.

The folks who settled our country were very superstitious and this seems to stand in contrast to the Age of Reason and so on. It could be that in their villages, they were aware of seemingly normal people who suddenly did things that were just evil. Lizzy Borden types of things. Our current comparative anonymity, like this posting forum as an example, insulates us from this kind of craziness.

It could be that the superstitions they clung to were simply the best explanation of what they were seeing.
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The first 15 minutes of the news has been depressing for the last 30 years at least. This stuff has always been going on, we just hear about it more and more as well as instantly nowadays...
 
Jack Fabulous said:
The one common thread to most(all except for one, I believe...) of these mass killings is that the murderers kill themselves in the end. This tells me that their "plan" had to include the understanding that what they were about to do would result in severe consequences for themselves if they were caught alive. They had to understand that the consequences would be so severe that death would be preferable. I can't say that this is proof that they understand basic right and wrong but it does show that they understand basic actions and consequences for those actions.
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To the bolded: I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. People who have reached the point of homocide/suicide, are not rationalizing at that point. They are so miserable that they are lashing out at others, then destroying what they perceive to be the real problem. They are at the point of extreme rage and anger, as they feel that their life is out of control. I think they are desperate for their discomfort to come to an end.
 
lizzie said:
The bolded is a point that I have believed for many years. Sane and rational people don't commit murder, even if it is *temporary* insanity, caused by high levels of emotional stress.
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Temporary insanity is just a window into a person that hides their insanity better than others. Hell, my ex has BPD and that is an insanity if ever there was one.
 
Evenstar said:
-A choice to act on urges that was/is influenced by environmental and genetic influences beyond the person's control.
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This is true of everyone. We all have factors outside our control that influence our decisions, but they don't take our decisions away from us.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The first 15 minutes of the news has been depressing for the last 30 years at least. This stuff has always been going on, we just hear about it more and more as well as instantly nowadays...
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Imo, that is the majority of the problem that we, as a society, are having with this type of behavior. It's in our face so rapidly, that we personalize it, and make it surreal to the point that we panic.
 
lizzie said:
To the bolded: I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. People who have reached the point of homocide/suicide, are not rationalizing at that point. They are so miserable that they are lashing out at others, then destroying what they perceive to be the real problem. They are at the point of extreme rage and anger, as they feel that their life is out of control. I think they are desperate for their discomfort to come to an end.
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I think Jack came up with a good line of reasoning... as do you. That is the problem. This is so difficult to understand. This guy objectified the children. I doubt he saw them as people and just as objects. That being said... why kill/destroy them? Why do people kill innocent people and then themselves? Why not just themselves? I can see him shooting his mom. There could be all sorts of real or imagined reasons for that... but little children you have never met? This is the rage you discuss so aptly. Jack's point that they have a plan makes sense to though. Why kill themselves in the end? Because they know they don't want to be caught and/or because they want to be a martyr.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Temporary insanity is just a window into a person that hides their insanity better than others. Hell, my ex has BPD and that is an insanity if ever there was one.
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Well, in all fairness, I was referring to the type of temporary insanity that occurs when a spouse walks in on the other spouse having a sexual relationship with someone else, or a scenario where a mother or father might seek out and kill, or otherwise cause grave injury, to someone who has harmed their child. This is the type of temporary insantiy that I would consider a normal emotional response to extreme stressors.
 
lizzie said:
Imo, that is the majority of the problem that we, as a society, are having with this type of behavior. It's in our face so rapidly, that we personalize it, and make it surreal to the point that we panic.
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Agreed. But that is the media doing their job to make money. They sensationalize it. Not all of us buy it but enough do so that the media is not really reporting the news, they are spreading the fear that it could happen to you.
 
lizzie said:
Well, in all fairness, I was referring to the type of temporary insanity that occurs when a spouse walks in on the other spouse having a sexual relationship with someone else, or a scenario where a mother or father might seek out and kill, or otherwise cause grave injury, to someone who has harmed their child. This is the type of temporary insantiy that I would consider a normal emotional response to extreme stressors.
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I know you were. I was just giving an example. I should have just answered with this: Temporary insanity is just a window into a person that hides their insanity better than others.
 
Bodhisattva said:
This guy objectified the children. I doubt he saw them as people and just as objects. That being said... why kill/destroy them? Why do people kill innocent people and then themselves? Why not just themselves? I can see him shooting his mom. There could be all sorts of real or imagined reasons for that... but little children you have never met? This is the rage you discuss so aptly. Jack's point that they have a plan makes sense to though. Why kill themselves in the end? Because they know they don't want to be caught and/or because they want to be a martyr.
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It's really difficult to say why he objectified the children. It could be as simple as his own way of lashing out, because he thought his own childhood was miserable.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Agreed. But that is the media doing their job to make money. They sensationalize it. Not all of us buy it but enough do so that the media is not really reporting the news, they are spreading the fear that it could happen to you.
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Yeah, truth be told, we would probably be better off if we'd turn the television off, and stay off the news sites. It's a good thing to keep up with what's going on in the world, but not to fill your head with minute-by-minute drama, and that is what we seem to see nowadays.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I see The religious praying at churches and stuff after horrible events like this latest school shooting. They comfort themselves with the idea that "God has a plan". Well, God gave us free will... so the idea that there is a plan kinda makes sense, to a degree. What about the mentally challenged socio-paths that commit crimes like this. Manson, Bundy, this ****tard who killed the beautiful and innocent little children. Can they have free will? They can't, in my opinion. They are ****ed in the head. They can't make rational decisions AT ALL. They don't understand consequences. Many of them lack morals.

I just wonder because the idea of free will seems to get tossed out the window when it comes to these ****s... so, logically, that shoots a hole in the entire idea that there is ANY free will.

What say you?
Click to expand...

If this was god's plan then he is one sadistic ****.
 
lizzie said:
Yeah, truth be told, we would probably be better off if we'd turn the television off, and stay off the news sites. It's a good thing to keep up with what's going on in the world, but not to fill your head with minute-by-minute drama, and that is what we seem to see nowadays.
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I almost never watch the news. Just the BBC, CNN or FOX to get world news every few days. I prefer Discovery Channel.
 
OnWisconsin said:
If this was god's plan then he is one sadistic ****.
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Yeah. I don't believe in God in the sense that the religious do. The whole idea is twisted and wreaks of control and fear.
 
lizzie said:
It's really difficult to say why he objectified the children. It could be as simple as his own way of lashing out, because he thought his own childhood was miserable.
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Yeah. I wish he would have just shot a picture of himself instead though.
 
lizzie said:
To the bolded: I don't necessarily believe that to be the case. People who have reached the point of homocide/suicide, are not rationalizing at that point. They are so miserable that they are lashing out at others, then destroying what they perceive to be the real problem. They are at the point of extreme rage and anger, as they feel that their life is out of control. I think they are desperate for their discomfort to come to an end.
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I think what you say might be true in SOME of these cases but not all. Columbine, for instance, does not seem to follow your line of reasoning but Friday's event very well could.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Excuse as in let them off for insanity or some other "Excuse". In that manner...
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Okay, that's still ambiguous. If you mean "let them off" of having to take responsibility for their behavior, then certain people probably should be let off because certain mental problems decrease or eliminate the responsibility they have for their behavior. If you mean "let them off" of having to be punished for their crimes regardless of how responsible they are, then certain people probably should be let off since I don't think anybody should be punished for something that is out of their control. If you mean "let them off" of having anything thing happen to them as a result of their behavior, then I agree, nobody should be let off. In the cases of those individuals where a mental problem severely decreases or eliminates the responsibility they have for violent behavior, then they should be housed in a mental facility until they are no longer a danger to society.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I see The religious praying at churches and stuff after horrible events like this latest school shooting. They comfort themselves with the idea that "God has a plan". Well, God gave us free will... so the idea that there is a plan kinda makes sense, to a degree. What about the mentally challenged socio-paths that commit crimes like this. Manson, Bundy, this ****tard who killed the beautiful and innocent little children. Can they have free will? They can't, in my opinion. They are ****ed in the head. They can't make rational decisions AT ALL. They don't understand consequences. Many of them lack morals.

I just wonder because the idea of free will seems to get tossed out the window when it comes to these ****s... so, logically, that shoots a hole in the entire idea that there is ANY free will.

What say you?
Click to expand...

Another clueless post from a person who doesn't understand the difference between mentally ill, psychotic or DD/AI and so forth. And from the tenure of the post does not want to. Just spouting his idiotic self absorb ideas about what happened.

First the person was probably not mentally ill but Autistic (know the difference?)

the rest of the post is so deep in horse**** I am surprised he made it out to post this crap. No clue at all just junk.

I am DD (aspergers syndrome) and like 100% of my fellow Aspies I have morals (maybe more than some people), I have a high IQ (again common), I am a father and husband and was an environmental regulator for 21 years so so much for rational decisions and not understanding conseguences.

To paraphrase my signature "Either you know this in your bones or you are very very old."
 
Bodhisattva said:
It is everybody... but the point of this thread is to discuss those that commit criminal acts and how people justify God's Plan by grieving.
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Not it was intended to be a rant against things you do not understand and may not be able to. If it were asa you say you rant would not have contained so many assinine statements/.

Gods Plan?
 
MaggieD said:
I don't think every psychopath acts on their violent impulses. There are plenty of people hanging on by their fingernails who choose not to give in to the impulses their sick minds suggest they do. I do think it's disingenuous to use a sick mind as proof (or no proof) of free will. They are anomalies.
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Again there is absolutely no proof (real) that this person was mentally ill or a psychopath. From all reports he was Autistic or do we equate Psychopath and sociopath with DD's now? ReallY?
 
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