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Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?[W:237]

Are civil unions an acceptable compromise for SSM?


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It is only an acceptable compromise if we let it temporarily exist with the knowledge that it will soon lead to full marriage equality. If that move is blocked, it is an awful compromise. The only acceptable posture is for homosexuals to get whatever they can from the society that reduces them to second-class citizens, and slowly turn them into accepting homosexuals fully.
 
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It is only an acceptable compromise if we let it temporarily exist with the knowledge that it will soon lead to full marriage equality. If that move is blocked, it is an awful compromise.

Since there appears to be some sort of momentum toward full marriage equality, I'm not sure why that compromise is necessary.

Edit: my edit still seems relevant to your edit.
 
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Since there appears to be some sort of momentum toward full marriage equality, I'm not sure why that compromise is necessary.

The momentum might not be enough at the moment. I hope the Supreme Court of the United States steps in and ends this democratic travesty that is in place. I don't believe in the masses getting to vote on your civil rights if you can get more headway through the feds or the courts. Sure, there have been a couple of victories, but a whole lot more defeats by letting the public decide whether or not you can get married. Gay marriage should be instituted all across the country.

That being said, I wouldn't want to deny people more rights. I think they should get as many rights as they can. The posture I gained from considering the conservative politics in my area and how my family deals with trying to increase rights and spending on human services on effective programs, is to be in continuous dialogue with conservatives and convince them as far as possible. Get that result, go ahead and let them think they had gotten some moderate ground, but then start working more on what you can get next. It's the more sinister route, but it can work as well. It's more slow, a lot less satisfying, but sometimes it might be the best route. Again, I'm hoping for a more definitive result in favor of gay marriage.
 
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We already have a perfectly acceptable word for what's being done and that word is "marriage". There is no point whatsoever in using a different word for what gays want to be able to do. We don't need any more "separate but equal" nonsense in this country.
 
What I'm going to need explained to me in the slowest, most patient way possible, is what government having to do with marriage is a problem. Pretend I'm super stupid here. And if you don't have to pretend, all the better!

Because government is the reason we have the issue with marriage that we have. Gov't is barring the union of gays, not the populus. Most polls show that the citizens of this country approve of SSM or at least don't believe that SSM should be barred, even if they don't agree with it. I fall in the latter category. If the gov't is out of the business of marriage and in the business of simply facilitating a fair deal in a case of divorce for a couple who voluntarily agreed to have contracts drawn up between themselves, I think that would be fair. The gov't would be doing what it's supposed to do and providing court services in the case of a contract dispute or custody dispute for children.
 
One of the common arugements I've seen from social conservatives is that the creation of a civil union should answer the questions regarding gay marriage.

Typically, the general idea is this:

  • The civil union will contain the same benefits as a heterosexual marriage
  • The term 'marriage' will only be recognized as between one man and one woman

So, dear reader, my question to you is: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise with regards to the issue of Same-Sex marriage?

I'll try to have the answers as applicable as possible.

No because separate but equal is a failed idea.
 
Marriage is societal and largely defined by the more mainstream beliefs within that society. Look at the diversity of marriage around the world, some places allow polygamy, others allow SSM and others only have hetero marriages. They also have different terms for divorce. Maybe entitled homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to tell the majority of individuals in a state that their moral views on marriage should be entertained and forced into law regardless of what the society they live in thinks or believes. You can look at it either way.

The trouble is that religious people began looking to the government to lift up, encourage and validate their own institutions. This will ALWAYS come back to bite religious people. Don't look to the government to do these things for religion, and you won't have, in the end, religious words (like you believe marriage is) being co-opted by people who don't agree with your view of those words. The truth is this: 53% of the public agree with marriage equality. Now you have a majority of the public wanting this equality, what say you about the rule of the majority? You cannot stand in the way of this thing: A word you believed held religious significance, but was made part of an inclusive system, is now being wrenched out of the hands of some of the religious entirely. I say some of the religious because there are some religious people who believe gay people should be married to one another.

It will happen every single time you give government authority over "religious" things: It will seem to go your way at first, but in the end it will not be to your liking. It will not be to your liking because it will eventually be the case that other religious people will disagree with you, or secular people will be in the majority, or there will be a coalition of people who disagree with you. This will ALWAYS happen.

So the lesson in this matter is broader: Stop trying to make the government the tool of religion. Seek to ensure that government cannot be the tool of religion, so that everyone, you, the other sect, and the secular ALL have the liberty to live as they please. This applies to all sorts of things: Funding religious charities with taxpayer money, creating crosses and other religious displays on public land, putting "In God We Trust" on money. What if we now fought to say "In Gods We Trust", instead? It is, after all, true isn't it (at least with regard to ALL theists)?

In the case of marriage, if it was ever indeed a religious institution, rather than merely a societal one, then it should never have been given structure and form and benefits by the government. A societal one should have always been in place instead, and marriages would have been the purview of religions entirely.

But again, now that the religious have co-opted government power for their own use, and have legislatively institutionalized marriage, they are hoisted on their own petard in the matter, because decent people have won the day. The best you can do now is to get government "out of religion" by seeking to have marriages turned into civil unions, which is what you should have been doing in the first place. It is certainly what I wanted in the first place. Perhaps finally we can agree on this one thing. But, it may now be too late for this, because the die may be cast: Conservative Religion rolled the dice, and are on the losing side.
 
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Because government is the reason we have the issue with marriage that we have. Gov't is barring the union of gays, not the populus. Most polls show that the citizens of this country approve of SSM or at least don't believe that SSM should be barred, even if they don't agree with it. I fall in the latter category. If the gov't is out of the business of marriage and in the business of simply facilitating a fair deal in a case of divorce for a couple who voluntarily agreed to have contracts drawn up between themselves, I think that would be fair. The gov't would be doing what it's supposed to do and providing court services in the case of a contract dispute or custody dispute for children.

Please. We were all around 2004 when this came up. The public voted measures that added to their state constitutions language that bars gay marriage, including my state. This continued thereafter. The masses, under the command of demagogues, decided that homosexuals don't have the right to marry, because somehow this "threatens" the institution of marriage. Every campaign thereafter rested on "the people" deciding-not some "activist judge." The people, in their collective wisdom, thrust their uninformed mob rule onto civil rights.
 
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No.

First it is a "separate but equal" policy that does nothing but distinguish between different types of couples not on their ability to fulfill what is required by the contract, but rather on their relative genders.

Second, it is a waste of time and money. If the two things were completely the same contract, except by two separate names, then the government, i.e. the taxpayers, would have to spend the money and the time to copy the laws to indicate "civil union" vice marriage.

Last, it would take more time to put into place, legally. Civil unions do not now offer the same benefits, rights, and/or protections of marriage, particularly on the federal level. So there would actually have to be an effort put in to set up civil unions, whereas marriage is already set up. The only effort needed to allow same sex couples to legally marry is to allow them to legally marry. Take out the relative gender restriction of all marriages.
 
No, because it's still the government relegating homosexual persons to second-class status. Whether you use the word marriage or union isn't as important as using the same word for both straight and gay couples.
Thank you. SSM advocates have been primarily interested in claiming the word "marriage", or doing away with it all together, and I have believed so for a long time.
 
No, they are not. If the rights of a married couple and a unionized couple are exactly the same, then the only possible reason for distinguishing between the two is the purpose of stigmatization.

This issue was effectively decided more than half a century ago in the Brown v. Board of Education case, where SCOTUS was asked whether, if black educational facilities were identical in every way to white ones, segregation would nonetheless be a violation of equal protection. The Court answered yes.

Segregating homosexuals from society though similar policy is just as likely to negatively effect homosexuals of all ages. It reinforces the idea that homosexuals are "different" and "inferior" to straight people. How can parents righteously scold their children for anti-gay bullying when they themselves forbid homosexuals from sacred and honored institutions such as marriage? How can young homosexuals be encouraged to establish meaningful and lasting relationships if they look forward and see that society doesn't value those relationships the same as they do straight ones?

...but that was physical separation between black and white students. Will there be separate lines at the justice of the peace for same sex and opposite sex marriages? Will they have to sit in two different waiting rooms? When same sex couples go to file for their taxes, are they going to have to mail their joint returns to a completely different address than opposite sex couples? At hospitals, in waiting rooms for surgeries, are their going to be state mandated separate same sex and opposite sex rooms? Separate Coke machines? Two different TV's, one tuned to ESPN and one to Bravo?

What ACTUAL segregation is going to take place?

The Brown v. Board of Education argument is nonsense.
 
Please. We were all around 2004 when this came up. The public voted measures that added to their state constitutions language that bars gay marriage, including my state. This continued thereafter. The masses, under the command of demagogues, decided that homosexuals don't have the right to marry, because somehow this "threatens" the institution of marriage. Every campaign thereafter rested on "the people" deciding-not some "activist judge." The people, in their collective wisdom, thrust their uninformed mob rule onto civil rights.

And now, that sentiment is changing. You are citing something that happened in 2004. That was 8 years ago under a GOP dictator...I mean President. The country is capable of changing my man.
 
Im sure someone already beat me too this but separate but equal is unconstitutional.

Nope, my idea is to open both options to homosexuals and heterosexuals. Either could choose a civil union or a traditional marriage.
 
I thought what you said is that heteros get the word "marriage," and gays don't. That gays wanting the word "marriage" is "unfair." Did I get that wrong? Mix you up with someone else on this topic?

Yes, you got it wrong. I said that if gay people don't like the terminology and concepts behind traditional marriage, then they could choose a civil union, but that BOTH options would be open to both heteros and homosexuals. I think that's a good idea. If an atheist couple decided that a civil union would be a more appropriate union for them rather than traditional marriage, they could also choose civil union. If a homosexual couple decided that they wanted a traditional marriage, then they could choose that option.
 
How a marriage certificate is worded has no practical effect on a marraige.

Well then why did some people want to change the terminology?
 
One of the common arugements I've seen from social conservatives is that the creation of a civil union should answer the questions regarding gay marriage.

Typically, the general idea is this:

  • The civil union will contain the same benefits as a heterosexual marriage
  • The term 'marriage' will only be recognized as between one man and one woman

So, dear reader, my question to you is: Are civil unions an acceptable compromise with regards to the issue of Same-Sex marriage?

I'll try to have the answers as applicable as possible.

Yes. Each should have the same 'rights' and protection under the law and civil unions should be provided for everyone.

Marriage should be done away with altogether, I don't understand why people want in on that sinking ship to begin with :confused:
 
Well then why did some people want to change the terminology?

You are talking about in Washington? Because it is a government document and as such has to be accurate. Gay people had nothing to do with that, it was changed due to the needs of the government. The terms "wife" and "husband" have gender specific meaning, and as such a document that expects one of each in an era when 2 of one can marry would be clearly inaccurate and necessitated a change. No one's marriage was actually affected in any way by the change, only records going forward. How much would your marraige change if the label on a document was called something different?
 
You are talking about in Washington? Because it is a government document and as such has to be accurate. Gay people had nothing to do with that, it was changed due to the needs of the government. The terms "wife" and "husband" have gender specific meaning, and as such a document that expects one of each in an era when 2 of one can marry would be clearly inaccurate and necessitated a change. No one's marriage was actually affected in any way by the change, only records going forward. How much would your marraige change if the label on a document was called something different?


Gay people have a gender. They are still either male or female. Transgendered people can use whatever gender they feel they should be. So I don't see what the problem is with the terms "bride and groom," especially if the option to choose any combination of the two was to be allowed, such as husband/husband, wife/wife, wife/husband, etc.

I feel that if there are things about marriage that they want to change, then it isn't actually a traditional marriage that they want, and those people should go for a civil union, but I'm not saying that they cannot choose to have a traditional marriage. It's just that a lot of people take the terminology, vows and concepts behind traditional marriage to carry deep meaning.
 
I don't know how anyone could say that traditional marriage has no religious connections, because it most certainly does. The rings, the vows and a lot of the other traditional marriage customs are most definitely tied into religion.
 
Gay people have a gender. They are still either male or female. Transgendered people can use whatever gender they feel they should be. So I don't see what the problem is with the terms "bride and groom," especially if the option to choose any combination of the two was to be allowed, such as husband/husband, wife/wife, wife/husband, etc.

I feel that if there are things about marriage that they want to change, then it isn't actually a traditional marriage that they want, and those people should go for a civil union, but I'm not saying that they cannot choose to have a traditional marriage. It's just that a lot of people take the terminology, vows and concepts behind traditional marriage to carry deep meaning.

http://www.southfloridagaynews.com/...-gay-marriage-law-takes-effect-this-week.html

The state Department of Health changed the language on marriage certificate and divorce forms. Secretary of Health Mary Selecky recently approved adding "spouse" to the existing language that includes "bride" and "groom" and couples can check a box to choose the term they prefer.

Oh such major changes....
 
You are talking about in Washington? Because it is a government document and as such has to be accurate. Gay people had nothing to do with that, it was changed due to the needs of the government. The terms "wife" and "husband" have gender specific meaning, and as such a document that expects one of each in an era when 2 of one can marry would be clearly inaccurate and necessitated a change. No one's marriage was actually affected in any way by the change, only records going forward. How much would your marraige change if the label on a document was called something different?

How does it change for gays then..using your logic change it for the 94% because it doesnt make a difference...but change it for the 6 % because it does make a difference....lol...yeah ok...some will defend everything gay dishonestly no matter what...im not accusing you of that redress...but it is a fact
 
Well, in the OP I thought it said that they were changing the terms to spouse A and spouse B? I don't remember reading that it says they are keeping the options of groom/bride.

I didnt see that either...if thats in there then I dont have so much of a problem with it, but to just rip it to shreds and change it to fit what a few want ...im totally against that.
 
I didnt see that either...if thats in there then I dont have so much of a problem with it, but to just rip it to shreds and change it to fit what a few want ...im totally against that.

I'm okay with it if the options for groom/bride are going to remain. I think we should try to make everyone happy.
 
I'm okay with it if the options for groom/bride are going to remain. I think we should try to make everyone happy.

Im better with it...not all for it if bride and groom remains...I know people get angry and dislike me for not slobbering all over gay marriage and tossing my YAY FOR EVERYTHING GAY pompoms...I stand by what I believe no matter what the topic and thats that...I cant apologize for that...they will just have to remain angry with me and Ill just go about doing what I always did all my life..and that is be happy
 
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