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If Syria Uses WMD's - Should USA get involved militarily?

If Syria uses WMD's on it's own people

  • the USofA should get involved militarily. Immediately.

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • the USofA should continue to stay out of it completely.

    Votes: 13 32.5%
  • it's proof the USofA should have gotten involved militarily sooner.

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • it would be the UN's problem, not ours.

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • let some other coalition of countries deal with it. The US should stay out.

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • other - please explain

    Votes: 5 12.5%

  • Total voters
    40
Any kind of successful attack by NK would disrupt SK and Japan and have a giant impact on the world economy, including the US.

That is true, but if we're talking about in terms of threat, NK is way more of a threat then Iraq was. If we got rid of Saddam because he was a huge threat, that's basically crap considering who we left alone.

The Iraq war was as much or more about making money for MIC contractors as it was oil. (just an opinion)

Perhaps, but to pretend oil wasn't at all related is pretty delusional. Again, if the region didn't have oil, we wouldn't have invaded to free Kuwait back in the 90s.
 
I think we are agreeing about NK. They pose a terrible threat and they are pretty much nuts.

The first Iraq war was surely about oil. We went in, did what we had to do and left. The second war seemed to be more about profits, than about oil. But maybe I'm wrong.


That is true, but if we're talking about in terms of threat, NK is way more of a threat then Iraq was. If we got rid of Saddam because he was a huge threat, that's basically crap considering who we left alone.



Perhaps, but to pretend oil wasn't at all related is pretty delusional. Again, if the region didn't have oil, we wouldn't have invaded to free Kuwait back in the 90s.
 
I think we are agreeing about NK. They pose a terrible threat and they are pretty much nuts.

Nah, North Korea ain't nuts. Neither is Iran. Who is nuts are those who have nothing to lose. Stateless actors without any means of deterrence are essentially nuts as we cannot do anything to prevent their actions short of killing them. With Iran and North Korea, the desire to stay in power is a big negotiating chip. Both nations know that we can remove their regimes if we really wanted to.

The first Iraq war was surely about oil. We went in, did what we had to do and left. The second war seemed to be more about profits, than about oil. But maybe I'm wrong.

That's one way of looking at it. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why. But I seriously gotta question the mental capacity of anyone who thinks oil is irrelevant.
 
How do we know they have them? They've never used them on their own people and no evidence has been produced that they have them at all.

Exactly dude. We even had proof of Iraq using them on their own citizens yet our intel epically failed on that one.
 
We need to leave this alone. Period. It would be another 10 year war that is unsustainable. I can't believe that our gov't is even considering doing anything there.
 
I remember when "WMD" was just plain old "NBC" and we expected every country to have them. Then Iraq 2003, came along and the same old became the most dangerous stuff on the block. Boy we were one pussified nation back in the early 2000's. Yeah, and no one thought Iraq was a Paper Tiger after kicking his arse and then having No-Fly Zones for the next decade. He rebuilt his "WMD" by what? Osmosis?
 
I remember when "WMD" was just plain old "NBC" and we expected every country to have them. Then Iraq 2003, came along and the same old became the most dangerous stuff on the block. Boy we were one pussified nation back in the early 2000's. Yeah, and no thought Iraq was a Paper Tiger after kicking his arse and then having No-Fly Zones for the next decade. He rebuilt his "WMD" by what? Osmosis?

Magic. Both Curveball and Chalabi openly lied to us about the alleged weapons programs. Curveball openly declared he made the whole thing up to get the West to remove Saddam.

Defector admits to WMD lies that triggered Iraq war | World news | The Guardian
 
Well, Syrian officials openly admitted they have them and did so in the last month. That's quite different from Iraq.

Not very. Saddam allowed the "misconception" that he had WMD's to run rampant. I will agree he never actually said he had them. I still believe that he had them and somehow got rid of them. He did say later that he didn't want to appear weak to Iran, however, if he sold them he wouldn't dime out his buyers IMO. We found numerous warehouses that looked to have had very recent heavy traffic and that appeared to have no real strategic use. They were not near any barracks, were not near any sort of motor pool or tank depot, they were not close to an air field, and were heavily camoflauged and secured.
 
Not very. Saddam allowed the "misconception" that he had WMD's to run rampant. I will agree he never actually said he had them. I still believe that he had them and somehow got rid of them.

The lack of storage and production facilities rules that out. It's kind of hard to have a chemical or biological weapons program without the means to build and store them. Not to mention last I checked, we never found any soldiers that had chemical or biological weapons training. What exactly was Saddam going to do with weapons he couldn't build, store or use?

He did say later that he didn't want to appear weak to Iran, however, if he sold them he wouldn't dime out his buyers IMO. We found numerous warehouses that looked to have had very recent heavy traffic and that appeared to have no real strategic use. They were not near any barracks, were not near any sort of motor pool or tank depot, they were not close to an air field, and were heavily camoflauged and secured.

True, but did they have residue of chemical weapons? Was the soil contaminated? Even America and Russia's programs, arguably the two countries that had the more resources to build them left huge amounts of contamination in their storage and production facilities. It's a dead giveaway that you were building and storing chemical weapons by simply sampling the soil around the facilities. Heck, we are still spending billions on clean up. I find is super hard to believe that Iraq was able to build and store such weapons in a far cleaner manner then we were able to.
 
The lack of storage and production facilities rules that out. It's kind of hard to have a chemical or biological weapons program without the means to build and store them. Not to mention last I checked, we never found any soldiers that had chemical or biological weapons training. What exactly was Saddam going to do with weapons he couldn't build, store or use?
He had a few facilities. I'm not going to claim that he had a massive industrial complex dedicated to producing chem. That would be dishonest. But I know for a fact that he had a few because I raided them with Aussie SAS. I don't know about troops with training though. I wouldn't think they would be hard to "get rid of".
True, but did they have residue of chemical weapons? Was the soil contaminated? Even America and Russia's programs, arguably the two countries that had the more resources to build them left huge amounts of contamination in their storage and production facilities. It's a dead giveaway that you were building and storing chemical weapons by simply sampling the soil around the facilities. Heck, we are still spending billions on clean up. I find is super hard to believe that Iraq was able to build and store such weapons in a far cleaner manner then we were able to.
As I said above, I'm not claiming a massive program. He didn't have that. But I do know he had a few facilities. Testing confirmed their presence as well. However, the NBC teams couldn't tell what had been there. Remember our tech for this stuff wasn't at the leve it is now. We didn't have the ability to test for this stuff in that sort of environment. Whether a follow on team came after us is beyond my scope. I do know we were told to secure it and then were shooed away. It could have been nothing in all honesty.
 
He had a few facilities. I'm not going to claim that he had a massive industrial complex dedicated to producing chem. That would be dishonest. But I know for a fact that he had a few because I raided them with Aussie SAS. I don't know about troops with training though. I wouldn't think they would be hard to "get rid of".

Was it civilian or actual weapons production? That's an inherent problem with dual use. One thing I never saw anything about was accidents. Chemical weapons production is dirty stuff, and it's worse when it's small scale as safety is easier to do on a large production facility as there is more space in the facility and likely better management. Small facilities risk mixing fumes and chemicals before they're ready not to mention the mere smaller space problem. We should have plenty of people with chemical accident injuries. Even the Soviets had serious problems with their production. Their biological program killed off dozens of leading Soviet Scientists. That came out in the 90s when people wondered what happened to several previously high profile biological scientists in the Soviet union. Basically they dropped dead from accidents in Soviet biological weapons plants.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that Saddam was cleaner, more efficient and safer then the US or the Soviet union.

As I said above, I'm not claiming a massive program. He didn't have that. But I do know he had a few facilities. Testing confirmed their presence as well. However, the NBC teams couldn't tell what had been there. Remember our tech for this stuff wasn't at the leve it is now. We didn't have the ability to test for this stuff in that sort of environment. Whether a follow on team came after us is beyond my scope. I do know we were told to secure it and then were shooed away. It could have been nothing in all honesty.

What gets me about this is, if we actually found contamination of known chemical agents in the soil around certain facilities storage or production, the GOP would have been all over this. Fox went gaga over soldiers finding 1980s mustard gas artillery rounds. Finding a chemical facility with contamination all over? That's a HUGE sign Saddam was breaking his agreement. I don't remember anything about something like this on Fox. The only real news source Fox put up was the alleged caravan of trucks headed into Syria. Vehicles moving in a large amount is a red flag, but if they're coming from a place that shows no sign of chemical or biological weapons, it's just speculation they were moving that.

Saddam's Iraq was notoriously inefficient and corrupt. Building even a small scale weapons program cleaner then the US or Soviets? I just can't get my head around that.
 
As per OP:

We've known for quite a while that the war in Syria is basically 4 factions:

1. Syrian Government
2. Hezbollah

v

3. Hodgepodge of militias organized around tribal lines
4. Militia's organized around Islamist lines to include the International Bad Guy types

worth noting: 3 and 4 are not exactly clearly defined or clear-cut


As soon as it became a possibility that any CBRN assets of #1 might become the property of #'s 3 or 4; we should have had the military option on the table.
 
Interesting that there are many who think that America should not intervene if assad uses wmd - particularly sarin nerve gas, where 1 artilllery shell loaded with it and fired into an urban area would kill at least 20,000 people within the first minute of dispersal and many more potentially after that.

If america is not the world's policeman, then why spend 600 billion plus a year on its military. If america only has to think of protecting itself, then surely they can close all those military bases around the world and vastly reduce their stockpiles. They sure wouldn't need 10 aircraft carriers, 70 subs, 2400 plus fighter planes, 8000 main battle tanks etc. etc.

America must intervene if assad uses Gas. It has to show the world that using such weapons can only result in one outcome. Total destruction of the user. If America doesn't take the lead, you think Putin will allow a country on his border to use WMD? Does american want to cede its position in the middle east and asia to Russia? I think not.

Its niaive and foolish to retreat from the world stage unless there is concensus that america should enact a 21st century version of the Monroe Doctrine pertaining to Asia and Africa and Europe. In other words, tell the world that if you don't screw around in NA or SA you are free to do whatever you want.

that'll work well.
 
I think NK is much crazier than Iran. Iran has a civilization, they make cars, they have universities et. NK has nothing except for its few top owners. IMHO the NK people would be better off dead than the existence they have now.

Why do you think we can remove these regimes? We've tried and lost before. NK is bunkered and Iran is a pretty big place. Short of using nuclear weapons, a decision that would have zero support, neither country is easily defeated and can cause incalculable harm if they feel threatened.

My mental capacity is just fine and I can tell you that oil is not the only or primary reason for Iraq. It certainly is no reason for Afghanistan.


Nah, North Korea ain't nuts. Neither is Iran. Who is nuts are those who have nothing to lose. Stateless actors without any means of deterrence are essentially nuts as we cannot do anything to prevent their actions short of killing them. With Iran and North Korea, the desire to stay in power is a big negotiating chip. Both nations know that we can remove their regimes if we really wanted to.



That's one way of looking at it. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why. But I seriously gotta question the mental capacity of anyone who thinks oil is irrelevant.
 
Syria could disappear off the face of the earth as far as I'm concerned. I'm sick of the U.S. being the cop and then getting dumped on by everybody else. It's somebody else's turn.
 
Interesting that there are many who think that America should not intervene if assad uses wmd - particularly sarin nerve gas, where 1 artilllery shell loaded with it and fired into an urban area would kill at least 20,000 people within the first minute of dispersal and many more potentially after that.

If america is not the world's policeman, then why spend 600 billion plus a year on its military. If america only has to think of protecting itself, then surely they can close all those military bases around the world and vastly reduce their stockpiles. They sure wouldn't need 10 aircraft carriers, 70 subs, 2400 plus fighter planes, 8000 main battle tanks etc. etc.

America must intervene if assad uses Gas. It has to show the world that using such weapons can only result in one outcome. Total destruction of the user. If America doesn't take the lead, you think Putin will allow a country on his border to use WMD? Does american want to cede its position in the middle east and asia to Russia? I think not.

Its niaive and foolish to retreat from the world stage unless there is concensus that america should enact a 21st century version of the Monroe Doctrine pertaining to Asia and Africa and Europe. In other words, tell the world that if you don't screw around in NA or SA you are free to do whatever you want.

that'll work well.

Hey, if Russia or France or Germany or anybody else wants to intervene, go for it. Just not us.
 
Hey, if Russia or France or Germany or anybody else wants to intervene, go for it. Just not us.

so you have no problem in ceding the dominant international position of America.
 
I don't think ceding the dominant position of america results from telling the Europeans or the Russians to fix the mess in Syria. But if it does, so be it. No more american deaths in these worthless countries.

Maybe Canada would be willing to take the lead.
 
Was it civilian or actual weapons production? That's an inherent problem with dual use. One thing I never saw anything about was accidents. Chemical weapons production is dirty stuff, and it's worse when it's small scale as safety is easier to do on a large production facility as there is more space in the facility and likely better management. Small facilities risk mixing fumes and chemicals before they're ready not to mention the mere smaller space problem. We should have plenty of people with chemical accident injuries. Even the Soviets had serious problems with their production. Their biological program killed off dozens of leading Soviet Scientists. That came out in the 90s when people wondered what happened to several previously high profile biological scientists in the Soviet union. Basically they dropped dead from accidents in Soviet biological weapons plants.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that Saddam was cleaner, more efficient and safer then the US or the Soviet union.



What gets me about this is, if we actually found contamination of known chemical agents in the soil around certain facilities storage or production, the GOP would have been all over this. Fox went gaga over soldiers finding 1980s mustard gas artillery rounds. Finding a chemical facility with contamination all over? That's a HUGE sign Saddam was breaking his agreement. I don't remember anything about something like this on Fox. The only real news source Fox put up was the alleged caravan of trucks headed into Syria. Vehicles moving in a large amount is a red flag, but if they're coming from a place that shows no sign of chemical or biological weapons, it's just speculation they were moving that.

Saddam's Iraq was notoriously inefficient and corrupt. Building even a small scale weapons program cleaner then the US or Soviets? I just can't get my head around that.
Look bro, as I said, I have a very limited scope on this stuff. I'm not claiming to be an expert. I'm just relaying what was said by the NBC guys that showed up and tested it. You're talking to the door kicker here, not a scientist lol. Also, as I said, it could have been nothing. What I do know is that a few facilities that we hit were definitely chem producing plants. I don't know if they were civilian or military. The country was in chaos when we started looking for this stuff. If I had a map of Iraq, I could show you the exact buildings I'm talking about though.
 
I can honestly say I can give two rips about the middle east! I would rather watch Jersey Shore, Big and Rich in Texas with Sarah Palin. I say leave them alone. We do not need to send our troops over there for anything much less money. I know that sounds harsh but I simply have gotten tired of hearing about it. Simply put they can leave the country!
 
I think NK is much crazier than Iran. Iran has a civilization, they make cars, they have universities et. NK has nothing except for its few top owners. IMHO the NK people would be better off dead than the existence they have now.

But North Korea has a regime that wants to live and stay in power. That makes them fairly predictable and predictable people are not crazy. Those religious extremists who have no problem sacrificing children to get what they want? That ain't predictable.

Why do you think we can remove these regimes? We've tried and lost before.

The US and its allies have the more advanced military the world has ever seen with the capacity to conventionally turn every city in Iran and North Korea to rubble given enough time. We can replace their regimes if we REALLY want to. Now, that would cost a huge amount of money and occupations would be expensive in lives and cash, but in terms of merely capacity, we can do it. Politically we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of pulling it out, but in theory, we could do it.

NK is bunkered and Iran is a pretty big place. Short of using nuclear weapons, a decision that would have zero support, neither country is easily defeated and can cause incalculable harm if they feel threatened.

On this ain't easy. North Korea has nukes that it will use in the event of the regime's fall and Iran has been plastering over every major facility with the type of concrete that has crazy strength so much so that bunker busters are questionable as to their usefulness. But a conventional invasion and occupation in a form of an Iraqi invasion would work. It has absolutely zero political support, but we could do it.

My mental capacity is just fine and I can tell you that oil is not the only or primary reason for Iraq. It certainly is no reason for Afghanistan.

Yes, but you don't think oil is completely irrelevant to the invasion at all. Unlike some people here. Afghanistan's another story, largely because the actual organization that pulled 9/11 off did it from there.
 
Shhhh! Don't tell anybody I told you.

It's all coming down to Dec 21st.
 
But North Korea has a regime that wants to live and stay in power. That makes them fairly predictable and predictable people are not crazy. Those religious extremists who have no problem sacrificing children to get what they want? That ain't predictable.

•••Yes, I suppose you are right and I also suppose that religious fanatics also have a calculating side and the ones who rule through the fist of religion have a lot to lose also. So, hopefully, nobody will misbehave.

The US and its allies have the more advanced military the world has ever seen with the capacity to conventionally turn every city in Iran and North Korea to rubble given enough time. We can replace their regimes if we REALLY want to. Now, that would cost a huge amount of money and occupations would be expensive in lives and cash, but in terms of merely capacity, we can do it. Politically we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of pulling it out, but in theory, we could do it.

••• Correct. We can't use nuclear weapons not for lack of them, but because it is the way things are. The same goes for an all out assault UNLESS they demonstrably attacked us in so blatant a manner that we could even attempt to justify it to ourselves, let alone the rest of the world.

Yes, but you don't think oil is completely irrelevant to the invasion at all. Unlike some people here. Afghanistan's another story, largely because the actual organization that pulled 9/11 off did it from there

•••Oil was of lesser relevance in Iraq than was creating a war for profit. We import very little Iraqi oil now even less than the past. But it provided a great opportunity for looting the spoils of war (some through the US treasury) and the issuance of poorly contained contracts and of course, sales of weaponry, an American staple. For oil, we need to protect Canada, eh?





((my usual "I could be wrong disclaimer applies))



But North Korea has a regime that wants to live and stay in power. That makes them fairly predictable and predictable people are not crazy. Those religious extremists who have no problem sacrificing children to get what they want? That ain't predictable.



The US and its allies have the more advanced military the world has ever seen with the capacity to conventionally turn every city in Iran and North Korea to rubble given enough time. We can replace their regimes if we REALLY want to. Now, that would cost a huge amount of money and occupations would be expensive in lives and cash, but in terms of merely capacity, we can do it. Politically we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of pulling it out, but in theory, we could do it.



On this ain't easy. North Korea has nukes that it will use in the event of the regime's fall and Iran has been plastering over every major facility with the type of concrete that has crazy strength so much so that bunker busters are questionable as to their usefulness. But a conventional invasion and occupation in a form of an Iraqi invasion would work. It has absolutely zero political support, but we could do it.



Yes, but you don't think oil is completely irrelevant to the invasion at all. Unlike some people here. Afghanistan's another story, largely because the actual organization that pulled 9/11 off did it from there.
 
I don't think ceding the dominant position of america results from telling the Europeans or the Russians to fix the mess in Syria. But if it does, so be it. No more american deaths in these worthless countries.

Maybe Canada would be willing to take the lead.

Of course its ceding the dominant position.

How about a NATO coalition with the US "leading from the rear"? The hard right surely loved that. then there's the epithets they threw at him, like "appeaser", "spineless", "enemy sympathizer", and accusations of him being a traitor. Or the flip/flop of the right about Iraqi withdrawal and the Afghanistan timetable and how obama was mismanageing "his wars".

How he was showing a weak hand to the rest of the world and that they would take advantage of this weakness. Why all those fox analysts were having hissy fits on air about his wishy washy foreign policy and percieved reluctance to simply bomb the crap outta iran.

Fact of the matter is, America worked hard for this position. It is why they are the dominant power, because their belligerance was tied to economic benefit for the most part. Without it, why would those that america have done wrong in the past want anything to do with them in the future?

Oh sorry, of course, those big piles of steaming crap america has left all over the world don't stink, I forgot.

I for one am glad that America is the world's superpower, but I am at least a realist. You don't get to the top and you don't stay on the top by not imposing your will on others to serve your best interests. that's how realpolitik works.

Canada is'nt a superpower. We'll do our share when we think its the right thing to do, but it would be ridiculous for anyone to think we could mount any kind of major military operation half way around the world with what we have.
 
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