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Christmas Tree vs Holiday Tree

Which one is it?

  • Total voters
    114
  • Poll closed .
Cardinal Fang said:
Start here. See all those References and Further reading entries at the bottom? Explore those liberally as well. You have a lot of catching up to do.
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Let's start here:

"seeking to minimize social and institutional offense". What does it mean to "minimize"? Give me an example.
 
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Cardinal Fang said:
Oh, I'm all in favor of his right to create a thread and whine like a little baby about whatever he wants.
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Well don't just sit there and cyber flap your gums at me, tell him yourself. ;)
 
Dooble said:
Let's start here:

"seeking to minimize social and institutional offense". What does it mean to "minimize"? Give me an example.
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It means that it is minimized to the extent that he and those who agree with him are not offended, and everyone else--particularly those whose cultural tradition is being distorted for no good reason--be damned.
 
Dooble said:
Let's start here: "seeking to minimize social and institutional offense". What does it mean to "minimize"? Give me an example.
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You haven't made much progress. Can't say that I'm surprised though, seeing as trivial words are tripping you up...

MINIMIZE
 
Dooble said:
Well don't just sit there and cyber flap your gums at me, tell him yourself. ;)
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He's a big boy. I'll bet he's already read it for himself.
 
Sig said:
It means that it is minimized to the extent that he and those who agree with him are not offended, and everyone else--particularly those whose cultural tradition is being distorted for no good reason--be damned.
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You mean people with a deep-seated need to keep calling others insulting names and slurs in order to convince themselves that there really is somebody out there that they are superior to.
 
Cardinal Fang said:
You mean people with a deep-seated need to keep calling others insulting names and slurs in order to convince themselves that there really is somebody out there that they are superior to.
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No, I mean being sick and tired of people with a deep-seated need to believe they are some sort of an authority on what is "politically correct" (whatever that even means).

Here's a simple way to arrive at "political correctness": Either respect other people's cultural traditions or have the decency to bugger off.
 
Until I start using a pine-type tree with ornaments and lights on it to celebrate other holidays, I will continue to refer to my tree as a Christmas tree. :mrgreen:
 
neat

We've reached page 36 and started the obligatory semantic debates.

Wonderful progress folks.
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Sig said:
No, I mean being sick and tired of people with a deep-seated need to believe they are some sort of an authority on what is "politically correct" (whatever that even means).
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Words and terms function because they have what are supposed to be at least generally accepted meanings. If people say that a four-legged creature that says "Meow" is a dog, they are likely on the wrong page and would need and benefit from some assistance and encouragement in updating their understandings.

Sig said:
Here's a simple way to arrive at "political correctness": Either respect other people's cultural traditions or have the decency to bugger off.
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As any number of examples might go to illustrate, merely calling something a "cultural tradition" is not at all sufficient to bring protection, respect, or even tolerance for it.
 
Cardinal Fang said:
Words and terms function because they have what are supposed to be at least generally accepted meanings. If people say that a four-legged creature that says "Meow" is a dog, they are likely on the wrong page and would need and benefit from some assistance and encouragement in updating their understandings.
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Exactly. Like a tree that you put up and decorate for the Christmas holiday is generally accepted to be a "Christmas" tree.

As any number of examples might go to illustrate, merely calling something a "cultural tradition" is not at all sufficient to bring protection, respect, or even tolerance for it.
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It's not ONLY a cultural tradition, but it is actually a Christmas tree. It's not a Halloween tree. It's not a Thanksgiving tree.
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ChrisL said:
Exactly. Like a tree that you put up and decorate for the Christmas holiday is generally accepted to be a "Christmas" tree.
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Which is exactly what most people choose to call it. But calling it a holiday tree -- particularly if you don't actually celebrate Christmas at all -- is hardly wrong, deceptive, or misleading. The term describes exactly the same thing, while making it clear that you don't associate your celebration with Christmas. Do you remember "freedom fries"?

ChrisL said:
It's not ONLY a cultural tradition, but it is actually a Christmas tree. It's not a Halloween tree. It's not a Thanksgiving tree.
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As you probably know, there are many different holidays celebrated during the latter parts of December. The time is not owned by Christians or Christianity, and the cheery habit of decorating a tree has no connection to Christianity at all. Anyone who wants to can do it, and they can call it what they will. Calling it a "stuffed wallaby" would of course be wrong, deceptive, and misleading, so something like "holiday tree" would be a better choice.
 
Cardinal Fang said:
Which is exactly what most people choose to call it. But calling it a holiday tree -- particularly if you don't actually celebrate Christmas at all -- is hardly wrong, deceptive, or misleading. The term describes exactly the same thing, while making it clear that you don't associate your celebration with Christmas. Do you remember "freedom fries"?


As you probably know, there are many different holidays celebrated during the latter parts of December. The time is not owned by Christians or Christianity, and the cheery habit of decorating a tree has no connection to Christianity at all. Anyone who wants to can do it, and they can call it what they will. Calling it a "stuffed wallaby" would of course be wrong, deceptive, and misleading, so something like "holiday tree" would be a better choice.
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Like it or not Christmas trees ARE associated with the holiday of Christmas here in America. Nobody "owns" anything, but there is no denying the fact that the two have a connection, at least as far as a lot of Americans are concerned.

Why the strong opposition to the term "Christmas" tree? Especially if it means nothing to you. There are actually organized groups that go around to protest anything to do with "Christmas."

Did you know that in Rhode Island, they will not allow the tree they put up in the State House to be called a Christmas tree and that they actually went so far as to keep the lighting of this tree quiet and performed it very quickly and quietly? Yet they allow a Menorah lighting and celebration? Hmmmm. Go figure.
 
Dooble said:
Plus, Dec 25 has always been designated for Christmas. If the libs want to have a Holiday Tree, they need to pick a different day and lobby to have it on the calendar.
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I think you are on to something. Perhaps George Washington's Birthday. Then all those who want to eliminate Christmas could go out and chop down a cherry tree.
 
Actually, IMO, they probably shouldn't allow ANY decorations that have to do with any kind of holidays in state/federal buildings. That would avoid conflict completely.

Also, I wonder how much of our money they spend to do all of these decorations and hold these ceremonies? It really isn't necessary.
 
Cardinal Fang said:
You haven't made much progress. Can't say that I'm surprised though, seeing as trivial words are tripping you up...

MINIMIZE
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You miss the point (no surprise here, of course).

What I'm driving at is, why isn't ELIMINATE the objective? Is it because people like you reserve the right to leave the insult door slightly open to certain others? Others like, say, Sarah Palin?
 
So doesn't anyone else think that the states kind of start these issues up around every Christmas season by causing these unnecessary disputes about Christmas trees and holiday trees, when they actually could avoid the whole thing by NOT putting up any decorations at all.

Maybe just a wreath with some holly and a bow or something like that.
 
Cardinal Fang said:
Which is exactly what most people choose to call it. But calling it a holiday tree -- particularly if you don't actually celebrate Christmas at all -- is hardly wrong, deceptive, or misleading. The term describes exactly the same thing, while making it clear that you don't associate your celebration with Christmas. Do you remember "freedom fries"?
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I remember "Freedom Fries", and they were every bit as stupid as "Holiday Tree". The interesting thing is, "Holiday Tree" never went away. Why do you suppose that is, Cardinal Fang?
 
ChrisL said:
So doesn't anyone else think that the states kind of start these issues up around every Christmas season by causing these unnecessary disputes about Christmas trees and holiday trees, when they actually could avoid the whole thing by NOT putting up any decorations at all.

Maybe just a wreath with some holly and a bow or something like that.
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Maybe I'm paranoid, but i think they do it to remind people to go shopping. And I think a "holiday tree" increases the potential number of those who could boost the local economy.
 
ChrisL said:
Like it or not Christmas trees ARE associated with the holiday of Christmas here in America. Nobody "owns" anything, but there is no denying the fact that the two have a connection, at least as far as a lot of Americans are concerned.
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Gee, that's great. Maybe you should call it a Christmas tree. That's what I do. But in fact there is no connection between a decorated -- and these days, likely artificial -- tree and either Christianity or Christmas that exists independent of your personal stance and perspective. Someone who is not Christian and is not celebrating Christmas may very well wish to put up such a tree at this time of year and he or she is not restricted by whatever is in your head when it comes to what to call it.

ChrisL said:
Why the strong opposition to the term "Christmas" tree?
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Don't have any opposition to the term at any level. But why are zealots promoting acts of criminal assault against people for using a different term? Maybe it's their psychoses that need to be examined here.

ChrisL said:
There are actually organized groups that go around to protest anything to do with "Christmas."
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Only on Bill O'Reilly. This sort of nonsense has been a big moneymaker for him.

ChrisL said:
Did you know that in Rhode Island, they will not allow the tree they put up in the State House to be called a Christmas tree and that they actually went so far as to keep the lighting of this tree quiet and performed it very quickly and quietly? Yet they allow a Menorah lighting and celebration? Hmmmm. Go figure.
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This is the same arrangement as has gone in in Rhode Island for some years. Keep in mind that the display is in the State House rotunda, not a public forum. Calling the tree a "holiday" tree is one part of how the state gets past the ban on favoring one religion over another and religion over non-religion. If it were called a Christmas tree, they would be hit with lawsuits in a matter of seconds, and the outcome would be removal of the entire display.
 
Holiday comes from Holy Day, with Christmas a Holyday. Although Christmas is a holyday, it is not the only holyday. A holyday tree, could lead to confusion unless we add trees to all the holydays. For the sake of clarity Christmas tree is used.
 
Dooble said:
You miss the point (no surprise here, of course).
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The point is clear. Playing dumb as a means of avoiding a confrontation with the facts.

Dooble said:
What I'm driving at is, why isn't ELIMINATE the objective?
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On the one hand, people are not protected from insult. On the other hand, it is not acceptable to inflict deliberate and gratuitous harm onto others through slurs, insults, and other derogatory language. Is that too tough to process?

Dooble said:
Is it because people like you reserve the right to leave the insult door slightly open to certain others? Others like, say, Sarah Palin?
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Sarah Palin is a public figure.
 
Dooble said:
I remember "Freedom Fries", and they were every bit as stupid as "Holiday Tree". The interesting thing is, "Holiday Tree" never went away. Why do you suppose that is, Cardinal Fang?
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The term must be increasing in popularity. I suppose the decline of Christianity in America might have something to do with that. There's a chance that at some point in the near term, someone will come up with a catchy new word or phrase for the holiday season that encompasses them all and that reference to any of the individual holiday names will become infrequent and even archaic thereafter. The whole point after all is just to sell stuff and boost year-end profits. The rest is essentially window-dressing.
 
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Cardinal Fang said:
Gee, that's great. Maybe you should call it a Christmas tree. That's what I do. But in fact there is no connection between a decorated -- and these days, likely artificial -- tree and either Christianity or Christmas that exists independent of your personal stance and perspective. Someone who is not Christian and is not celebrating Christmas may very well wish to put up such a tree at this time of year and he or she is not restricted by whatever is in your head when it comes to what to call it.
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Well gee, thanks for your permission to call it a Christmas tree. :lol: There is a connection between the decorated tree and the holiday of Christmas. For instance, most Christmas trees are topped with a star or an angel. What do you think the significance of that is?

I don't care what anyone calls it. If I was at someone's house and they said "Look at my beautiful holiday tree." I might ask why they call it that, but I certainly wouldn't take offense. I am asking WHY some people INSIST on calling it a holiday tree or else they are all "offended."


Don't have any opposition to the term at any level. But why are zealots promoting acts of criminal assault against people for using a different term? Maybe it's their psychoses that need to be examined here.
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I don't have an opposition to any term either. As I said, I am asking others why they are offended by the term "Christmas" tree and insist upon holiday tree instead?

Only on Bill O'Reilly. This sort of nonsense has been a big moneymaker for him.
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That is an untrue comment.

This is the same arrangement as has gone in in Rhode Island for some years. Keep in mind that the display is in the State House rotunda, not a public forum. Calling the tree a "holiday" tree is one part of how the state gets past the ban on favoring one religion over another and religion over non-religion. If it were called a Christmas tree, they would be hit with lawsuits in a matter of seconds, and the outcome would be removal of the entire display.
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I don't believe this is true. I think it has only been the past two holiday seasons when this has been made into an issue by the current Governor Chafee. I know, the jerks always have to come forward during the holiday season and have their yearly bitch fest about Christmas and Christianity.

This whole thing could be easily avoided by eliminating such decorations from state/federal buildings.
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Ben K. said:
Maybe I'm paranoid, but i think they do it to remind people to go shopping. And I think a "holiday tree" increases the potential number of those who could boost the local economy.
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Meh, maybe I'm paranoid too. It sounds plausible to me.
 
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