Does constructive encheatering make you a cheater?

Surtr said:

And I never said it was. You can create whatever examples you want, but for the vast majority, that isn't the case. Marriage is an absolute. It's a formal contract between two people that they will be loyal and faithful to each other. Just because you know some swingers doesn't change this.

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I never wrote anything about "swingers" and when you have been married for 40 years and are comfortable in your old-age marriage then you can tell of your perfect marriage to your "absolutes." But if you actually do believe in "absolutes," I do not believe a lifelong good marriage is even possible for you.

Nearly everyone on this forum tells of their perfect values of absolutes and perfect goodness to their definition on almost any topic. I rarely believe it.

The old folks I was writing about have done what few couples will ever accomplish.

Been together a lifetime and most married young. didn't sleep around before marriage, didn't get abortions, didn't cohabitate - claiming those don't count if you break up. What they are doing is a lifelong marriage "for better or for worse."

The modern standard? "For better or its over." And then bitch about your ex and how unfair it all is. Then to claim superiority in marriage number 2, 3, 4 - as the kids bounced back and around under the slogan "the children are better off if the parents are both separately happy with their new lovers and spouses." They stuck it out, made it work.

They had their troubles along the way. But now they have a nice home paid for, retirement saved up, and spend holidays with their children, grandchildren and some even great grandchildren. They go on vacations and travel. Have piles of friends they socialize with. Go fishing. And lay back and watch television. Sleep together at night, wake up together in the morning, go to the doctor with each other for their growing health issues and all in all figure they a had and have a pretty good life and - all in all - a half way decent marriage and old age security. But they evolved to have some space between them now and then, just a tad of independence now and then - rather than your "do or die" modern values. They will be together until one of them dies too.

Yes, you can put on your white purity Bible beater robe and call them names if that's what makes you feel superior and good about yourself - likely having nothing yourself to actually show for it.

But here's the thing. They don't give a damn what you think about them. They probably think your values are wrong too. And they have done what now the chances are maybe 1 in 10 you could do, because YOU believe in divorce. They don't.

MaggieD said:

This is a scenerio out of your imagination. If you can show me any statistic that correlates significant weight gain to cheating in any significant percentage, perhaps it's worth considering. But you can't just make up stuff in your head and say that accounts for cheating. It doesn't. Most cheating is all about the cheater, not the cheatee.

It's about chasing that wonderful hormonal feeling we call "lust." It's about chasing youth. It's about chasing danger. It's about hurting our spouse or significant other. It's about dodging responsibilities. (It's sooo much more fun to **** when you don't have to worry about paying the mortgage or change a diaper.) It's about chasing foot-loose-fancy-free. It's about chasing the person who doesn't care about your faults because he/she doesn't know about them.



You will never convince me that cheating is about weight gain.

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I took my weightgain-to-cheating idea from a thread here at DebatePolitics (or maybe another forum like this), where there was a poll whether you would leave your partner upon his/her weightgain. The answers were overwhelmingly a "yes".

People cheat because they're not getting something they need in the relationship they are in.

The problem is long term relationships, by their very nature, are not always generous in some of the things people feel they need.

joko104 said:

OK, OK. Come clean. Tell YOUR story. Stop being abstract and be specific. What happened to you or by you?

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Well, I didn't want to make this thread be linked to that, but my story is here on DebatePolitics, about a year ago (a little less). Here is the abstract. That time I was told a few times that I was wrong to blatently and openly enter into every relationship like it is just a game. So, I decided to experiment with my then GF to build a relationship on a cooperative basis, where we both define each-other's identities. She was very enthusiastic about this, and we went ahead with it. (And she did define my identity, although I don't think I defined any of hers.) Then she needed an operation which lead to pain killers which lead to addiction, and at the end she did many things against me that I don't want to write any more, she destructively drove me in her hope that I would stop trying to get her off the pills. After she stabbed me I cheated on her, and soon after that the relationship ended. If I had not cheated on her, I would be stabbed many more times up till today. I wrote these things on my thread then, but I don't want to link it here, you can find it if you want to.

In answer to the OP, yeah there are people who either unconsciously or deliberately try to drive their spouse/partner away or into infidelity.

This is, IMO, just as wrong as the infidelity.

The notion of lifelong marriage/relationship not only is actually becoming quite rare - replaced instead with the last relationship/marriage is the one that lasts to the end. Increasingly, people argue that lifelong marriage is totally contrary to human nature anyway. Yet even with this, most people still try to blend "old fashioned marriage rules" with new fashioned 1,001 justifications for divorce when the do marry (or enter a same-as-marriage no-license commitment or start a family.

My wife was super fixated on the question of who she should marry, wanting no relationships along the way until them, and since she is basically a perfection and lives perfectly to her values (and always has), this quite a challenge, since those values include what are grounds for divorce - of which there are only 2. Highly damaging abuse in real terms of the children and severe ongoing physical abuse (beating) of her. Otherwise, no basis. So if she married a man who became a boring, apathetic, wandering alcohol drug addict adulterering bum, then that was who she was married to and she'd make the best of it. Since this would conflict horribly with her ultimate goal of being foremost a parent, wife and homemaker, the seemingly perfect guys that wanted her as the seemingly perfect future wife were lacking. She also recognized unique aspects of herself and seeming contradictions making it all quite the challenge. It odd ways, that was me. And she latched on almost instantly. I never wanted a relationship, never had one before in my life either, but I'd have been a total fool not to recognize what she offered to me in return.

For a marriage to work right takes many things. But one of those I think has to do with how long or short the "I will divorce if _______" list is.

It somehow pisses me off to read a man write "I'd kick her ass to the door if she..." about his wife. I don't think that was in those marriage vows. And in my view it means he really does not love her in a true love sense and is more in love with himself and his own ego.

Her list has only 2 theoreticals on it. Mine has only 1 - severe abuse of the children. The one thing we both know as much as can possibly be known, it is our proven exact opposite natures from those basis of divorce. She is the pied piper of children. I've never seen anyone who likes children so much and children feel that way about her too. She'd never hurt a child, certainly not her own. I have quite the history of extreme intolerance of any man abusing a child and (circumstantially) a woman. So I not a risk of that either.

That's it. That's the divorce list. Now, whether the marriage is a good one or not for both of us is up to us. Doesn't matter a damn how anyone else would evaluate it. But our marriage isn't static either. Her goal is to live her live as an ongoing romance novel of her own life - something that must evolve, face challenges, advancements, setbacks and newness, a path of joint romantic discovery. A curious challenge. Keeps life interesting.

That's my view of it anyway for MY marriage. Do whatever the hell you want with yours.

Goshin said:

In answer to the OP, yeah there are people who either unconsciously or deliberately try to drive their spouse/partner away or into infidelity.

This is, IMO, just as wrong as the infidelity.

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Maybe the spouse who drove the other into infidelity wasn't getting what they needed out of the relationship.

Maybe they did it on purpose...even subconsciously.

A cry for help. A cry for attention. A cry for meaning.

spanky said:

Maybe the spouse who drove the other into infidelity wasn't getting what they needed out of the relationship.

Maybe they did it on purpose...even subconsciously.

A cry for help. A cry for attention. A cry for meaning.

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Or maybe they're just a selfish beyotch. :mrgreen:

ab9924 said:

Well, I didn't want to make this thread be linked to that, but my story is here on DebatePolitics, about a year ago (a little less). Here is the abstract. That time I was told a few times that I was wrong to blatently and openly enter into every relationship like it is just a game. So, I decided to experiment with my then GF to build a relationship on a cooperative basis, where we both define each-other's identities. She was very enthusiastic about this, and we went ahead with it. (And she did define my identity, although I don't think I defined any of hers.) Then she needed an operation which lead to pain killers which lead to addiction, and at the end she did many things against me that I don't want to write any more, she destructively drove me in her hope that I would stop trying to get her off the pills. After she stabbed me I cheated on her, and soon after that the relationship ended. If I had not cheated on her, I would be stabbed many more times up till today. I wrote these things on my thread then, but I don't want to link it here, you can find it if you want to.

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Well, good for Joko. He finally got it out of you. Grow a set, my friend. Stop trying to fix people. "If I had not cheated on her, I would be stabbed many more times up till today." What???????? The first time someone uses physical violence against you, it's over!!!!!!!! Read that twice!!!!!!!!

MaggieD said:

Well, good for Joko. He finally got it out of you. Grow a set, my friend. Stop trying to fix people. "If I had not cheated on her, I would be stabbed many more times up till today." What???????? The first time someone uses physical violence against you, it's over!!!!!!!! Read that twice!!!!!!!!

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Exactly. Never let it get to the point of being stabbed; the first time they punch you somewhere other than the arm, or threaten you with a weapon, walk.

Goshin said:

Or maybe they're just a selfish beyotch. :mrgreen:

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Everyone is selfish. It's impossible for a human to make a decision that isn't inherently selfish.

The only difference is how society views the act.

Goshin said:

Exactly. Never let it get to the point of being stabbed; the first time they punch you somewhere other than the arm, or threaten you with a weapon, walk.

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Unfreakin' believable. I whole thread to show that the OPer maybe a gutless wonder.

Edit: This reminds me of a conversation I had with my nephew. I asked how his girlfriend was doing. He said, "Oh, we broke up." Being a woman, I asked, "OMG, what happened?" He said, "Well, I had to break up with her." "OMG, I said," pressing, "what on earth happened?" "She got engaged to another guy."

WTF?

Goshin said:

Exactly. Never let it get to the point of being stabbed; the first time they punch you somewhere other than the arm, or threaten you with a weapon, walk.

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Well, I'm guessing the word "stabbed" was a euphemism.

spanky said:

Everyone is selfish. It's impossible for a human to make a decision that isn't inherently selfish.

The only difference is how society views the act.

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Yeah, I hear people say that. I don't buy it. You can claim "oh, they did this seemingly selfless thing to make themselves feel good..."

Maybe, maybe not. I've known a lot of "givers", and a lot of "takers"... and I don't buy this "everything is selfish" philosophy.

People sacrifice their lives out of sense of duty... so feeling good for the last painful 30 seconds of your existence is justification for "selfishly" sacrificing your life? Nah.

spanky said:

Well, I'm guessing the word "stabbed" was a euphemism.

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Maybe, but I don't know why you'd assume it was so... lots of peeps (especially addicts) have done as bad or worse.

I'm guessing she didn't stick a 12" butcher knife between his ribs full-length or he prolly wouldn't be here, but 1/2" of blade in the hand is still "stabbed".

MaggieD said:

Unfreakin' believable. I whole thread to show that the OPer maybe a gutless wonder.

Edit: This reminds me of a conversation I had with my nephew. I asked how his girlfriend was doing. He said, "Oh, we broke up." Being a woman, I asked, "OMG, what happened?" He said, "Well, I had to break up with her." "OMG, I said," pressing, "what on earth happened?" "She got engaged to another guy."

WTF?

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Well, the OP is certainly a "bird of a different feather", and exhibits some mighty exotic plumage....

ab9924 said:

Well, I didn't want to make this thread be linked to that, but my story is here on DebatePolitics, about a year ago (a little less). Here is the abstract. That time I was told a few times that I was wrong to blatently and openly enter into every relationship like it is just a game. So, I decided to experiment with my then GF to build a relationship on a cooperative basis, where we both define each-other's identities. She was very enthusiastic about this, and we went ahead with it. (And she did define my identity, although I don't think I defined any of hers.) Then she needed an operation which lead to pain killers which lead to addiction, and at the end she did many things against me that I don't want to write any more, she destructively drove me in her hope that I would stop trying to get her off the pills. After she stabbed me I cheated on her, and soon after that the relationship ended. If I had not cheated on her, I would be stabbed many more times up till today. I wrote these things on my thread then, but I don't want to link it here, you can find it if you want to.

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Thank you for that. But it impossible for us to find the full story and there are abstractions in there - as in evasiveness. Specifically:

"That time I was told a few times that I was wrong to blatently and openly enter into every relationship like it is just a game. So, I decided to experiment with my then GF to build a relationship on a cooperative basis, where we both define each-other's identities. She was very enthusiastic about this, and we went ahead with it. (And she did define my identity, although I don't think I defined any of hers.)"

There are many topics my wife literally can not think or talk about. A unique nature she's had her whole life. So I have to do A LOT of reading between the lines - and I do get it wrong some times - badly - but reading between the lines on abstractions is what I have to do.

THIS: experiment with my then GF to build a relationship on a cooperative basis, where we both define each-other's identities.

It sounds like partner swapping, swinging, 3-some or something else sexual. If so, that really factors into it and might have something to do with her getting all pissed off at you and stabbing you in combination with you trying get her off of pills.

Your logic doesn't work. You didn't get stabbed again because you left her - or she left you - not because you screwed someone else. I mean, really.

But thank you for sharing, really. We aren't perfect people. Ideally we not only learn by out experiences, but also others. However, of our experiences we should examine them not just from our own inner eye, but as a remote 3rd eye looking in. Since you opt not to explain your abstractions, it sounds like you took some relationship gamble for whatever reasons and it blew up on you.

Which leads to another comment/advise. MOST people usually don't always mean what they say, particularly if YOU make the suggestion and the other person says "OK." That doesn't mean the person really agrees and in the end it doesn't work out.

A common example is a man proposing a 3-some OR spouse swapping, and the wife says "ok" - but its not REALLY ok. And then its going to go badly from there. Not saying that's what happened, but your statement of "I decided to experiment with my then GF" sets off alarims, because of the "I decided" - rather than "we decided."

I see no reason to be judgmental about anything you wrote, BTW. You weren't married nor does it sound marriage-like. Depending what it was and assuming "consent," "experimenting" is usually ok. I dunno. Maybe it was surprise anal sex or some other sexual thing or even gender orientation thing - and she didn't care for it. I don't think it matters. Once you were retaliatory screwing someone else and she was stabbing you it was pretty much over.

ab9924 said:

Encheatering is when someone plays with your head and senses for the purpose of forcing you to cheat on them, against your unsuspecting mind/attitude. Then, once you complete the cheating, they turn around and use it against you.

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Not to offend you or anything, ab9924, but I think you should know that there is no such word as "encheatering" for future reference.

Goshin said:

Yeah, I hear people say that. I don't buy it. You can claim "oh, they did this seemingly selfless thing to make themselves feel good..."

Maybe, maybe not. I've known a lot of "givers", and a lot of "takers"... and I don't buy this "everything is selfish" philosophy.

People sacrifice their lives out of sense of duty... so feeling good for the last painful 30 seconds of your existence is justification for "selfishly" sacrificing your life? Nah.





Maybe, but I don't know why you'd assume it was so... lots of peeps (especially addicts) have done as bad or worse.

I'm guessing she didn't stick a 12" butcher knife between his ribs full-length or he prolly wouldn't be here, but 1/2" of blade in the hand is still "stabbed".

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Because what they personally derive out of their devotion to duty is stronger then what they get from self preservation or material gain.

Society dictates what is selfish and what is selfless, many times after the fact. And those that call it a selfless act are usually the people who benefited from it.

MaggieD said:

Unfreakin' believable. I whole thread to show that the OPer maybe a gutless wonder.

Edit: This reminds me of a conversation I had with my nephew. I asked how his girlfriend was doing. He said, "Oh, we broke up." Being a woman, I asked, "OMG, what happened?" He said, "Well, I had to break up with her." "OMG, I said," pressing, "what on earth happened?" "She got engaged to another guy."

WTF?

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Don't worry, I read through the whole thread because of the phrase 'constructive encheatering', only to find there is no such word as 'encheatering'. That's ten minutes of my life (including Googling 'encheatering') I will never get back.

spanky said:

Because what they personally derive out of their devotion to duty is stronger then their devotion to self preservation or gain.

Society dictates what is selfish and what is selfless, many times after the fact. And those that call it a selfless act are usually the people who benefited from it.

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This has been hashed and re-hashed on DP more than once, and I don't want to derail the thread here.

Suffice it to say I don't entirely agree with the assertion that all human decisions are based in Randian selfishness and leave it at that.

Goshin said:

Well, the OP is certainly a "bird of a different feather", and exhibits some mighty exotic plumage....

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I think so too. But I appreciate the candor and suspect everyone jumping on him from our high morals status (yeah, right!) has put him on guard. I think he's trying to be honest, rather than correct. I appreciate that.

joko104 said:

I think so too. But I appreciate the candor and suspect everyone jumping on him from our high morals status (yeah, right!) has put him on guard. I think he's trying to be honest, rather than correct. I appreciate that.

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Oh, yes. I think he's definitely an innocent. I just think he's looking for an excuse where none is necessary.

ab, I hope I'm not prying, but you say you're only 16, so how old was the girl who stabbed you? How old were you when that happened?

Leo said:

Don't worry, I read through the whole thread because of the phrase 'constructive encheatering', only to find there is no such word as 'encheatering'. That's ten minutes of my life (including Googling 'encheatering') I will never get back.

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:lamo I did the same thing!

How anal, huh? :lol:

MaggieD said:

Oh, yes. I think he's definitely an innocent. I just think he's looking for an excuse where none is necessary.

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That really ought to be the understood guideline of the forum on personal topics. If honest, excuses aren't necessary. But feedback also should be honest (not hateful) even if critical. Yet if a person isn't prepared to be honest or isn't prepared to see honest criticism, then don't make something up.