Should women be allowed custody? [W:124]

ab9924 said:

Your position is reasonable. But I still must ask, because the question begs for itself. Why do we rubber-stamp the destruction of a child's home by ignoring cheating as a cause? Also I was not arguing for full custody, I was arguing for a biassed joint custody as opposed to equal custody. Shouldn't cheating be punished when it destroys a child's home? Shouldn't be consequences to abandoning a jointly agreed marriage in the face of its dependents? Even your cell-phone contract may infer termination penalties, is a marriage not worth even that?

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Someone cheats = couple breaks up over it . . . that isn't ignoring cheating. The entire family structure was disassembled and the entire future for that child was rewritten.
The whole reason why we're even discussing this is because it's NOT being ignored - ignoring it would be staying married even if you hate each other. . . that's ignoring it.

If someone's divorcing - trust me - they're suffering. . . I don't see how you can think otherwise. Divorce is hard, it sucks - even for the offending party that committed the wrong it's hard. I don't know ANY joyously happy divorces who were at main fault for causing the breaking of their marriage. They usually have a lot of personal baggage that they carry around.

The consequences are stark no matter what the situation - you no longer are in a solid family environment. You cannot share household issues with someone else. You cannot see your child every night - you cannot be there for them for everything like you would have otherwise regardless of the custody balance in the end.

Sounds ****ty to me - I can't imagine not being full-time mom to all 4 of my kids. That'd be hell. It would never be enough to see them just sometimes or on the weekends or however else it works out . . . and what if the other moves away and such? Ugh.

The divorce - balancing custody - cost of divorce (which can get high up there if you mediate, etc) - and loss of dignity and everything else . . . it doesn't sound like a cakewalk to me. Mine was uncontested but I still had to deal with him for a long time afterward.

Are you thinking of divorce as a pleasant fun event or someting? Your concept of what a divorced joint custody life is like is a bit baffling . . . I left my ex because he was abusive but it sucked having to live with my parents and work **** jobs to make my own ends meet without even so much as having child support from him.

Aunt Spiker said:

Heavens - just delete that. I'm hoping your being facetious.

Because a mother never stops being a mother . . . you never become your child's figurative aunt unless your entire family has some seriously ****ed up issues . .. my ex husband's family had some seriously ****ed up issues - he found out when he was 22 that his uncle was actually his biological father.

That's how a parent becomes a aunt/uncle - and that is the single most ****ed up thing to ever do.

Now - you can become a ****ty mother . . . a horrid mother - but you're never *not* the mother.

Cheating means you wanted something from someone else - it's not like she or he took on other people's children and pretended they didn't have any or something. As we've said - usually cheating goes along with other issues in the marriage . . . or maybe emotional problems that one is dealing with. Not excusing it - just explaining that it's not all because you suddenly don't want to be a mother anymore.

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I wholeheartedly disagree.

My sister is only the biological mother of my niece, she is not the actual mother of my niece.
My sister treats her as sometimes inconvenient accessory, kinda like a dog.

Her stepmother, on the other hand, has been her primary mother.

To add - no one likes the cheaters (obviously).

The effects and backlash from doing so can be devastating and out of their control. People who cheat lose friends and family - not just their marriage but so many other things fall apart. Hell - they can lose their jobs if they cheat with a coworker. Military members can be outed.

Society does not approve and many people aren't shy about showing it.

Harry Guerrilla said:

I wholeheartedly disagree.

My sister is only the biological mother of my niece, she is not the actual mother of my niece.
My sister treats her as sometimes inconvenient accessory, kinda like a dog.

Her stepmother, on the other hand, has been her primary mother.

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Yeah, absolutely. My husband is the father of my 1st two - he's never been seen as 'step dad' . . . I don't even put that on forms and stuff - it's ridiculous to forever label someone like that. He's 'father' and that's that.

I was trying to combat that concept that she's shunning her motherhood with the act of cheating on her spouse. (I could have written it better I guess) - cheating doesn't demote you based on those grounds.

Aunt Spiker said:

Yeah, absolutely. My husband is the father of my 1st two - he's never been seen as 'step dad' . . . I don't even put that on forms and stuff - it's ridiculous to forever label someone like that. He's 'father' and that's that.

I was trying to combat that concept that she's shunning her motherhood with the act of cheating on her spouse. (I could have written it better I guess) - cheating doesn't demote you based on those grounds.

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I can agree with that.
I don't think it's automatic in making you a ****ty parent, however, I think it should be weighed in, regarding all the other behavior characteristics.

Aunt Spiker said:

To add - no one likes the cheaters (obviously).

The effects and backlash from doing so can be devastating and out of their control. People who cheat lose friends and family - not just their marriage but so many other things fall apart. Hell - they can lose their jobs if they cheat with a coworker. Military members can be outed.

Society does not approve and many people aren't shy about showing it.

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What's crazy is society doesn't approve, but a hell of a lot of them, are cheaters.

A person's ability to parent and a person's ability to maintain a faithful partnership with another consenting adult are two entirely different concepts that can hardly be compared IMO.

ab9924 said:

Okay everyone, so if a woman cheats on her husband, hasn't she already proven with that that she is not able to be loyal or supportive and caring, so a child should not be assumed to receive any loyalty, support, and care from her, when examined in any court of law?

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Of course not. Many people (male and female) who commit adultery are loving, caring, supportive parents.

ab9924 said:

Okay everyone, so if a woman cheats on her husband, hasn't she already proven with that that she is not able to be loyal or supportive and caring, so a child should not be assumed to receive any loyalty, support, and care from her, when examined in any court of law?

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^^This.

It irks the crap out of me when people throw up arguments about neglectful spouses and other such nonsense. Here is why.

1. Marriage Counseling
2. Discussion with spouse
3. Divorce

#1 - Not always capable of fixing the problems, but can be a good conduit for bringing them out in to the open.
#2 - There may be a legitimate reason for the current neglect on the part of the spouse. Doesn't mean cheating is excusable because you feel like you are being ignored.
#3 - If all else fails, then go this route.

People that cheat don't seem to have the patience to try any of the above, so why should we assume they could be patient with a child. Seriously, how hard is it to wait until you are free from a bad marriage to have sex with someone else?

ab9924 said:

By internalizing cheating I meant that the child is smart enough to see that one of the parents cheated, and when staying with the cheating parent, the child learns that cheating is okay or even a good thing. When something hurts you for a long time, it becomes a part of you and you become it, and then you will do the same thing as what hurt you initially. This is how people learn to do every bad thing, especially when a custody court orders them into that situation.

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It's difficult for me to see how a child that sees his/her parents' marriage destroyed and his/her own life upended would come to the conclusion that "cheating is a good thing."

Kr1ll1n said:

^^This.

It irks the crap out of me when people throw up arguments about neglectful spouses and other such nonsense. Here is why.

1. Marriage Counseling
2. Discussion with spouse
3. Divorce

#1 - Not always capable of fixing the problems, but can be a good conduit for bringing them out in to the open.
#2 - There may be a legitimate reason for the current neglect on the part of the spouse. Doesn't mean cheating is excusable because you feel like you are being ignored.
#3 - If all else fails, then go this route.

People that cheat don't seem to have the patience to try any of the above, so why should we assume they could be patient with a child. Seriously, how hard is it to wait until you are free from a bad marriage to have sex with someone else?

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Because the relationship they have with their spouse is completely different than the one they have with their children. It is also often the case that people have more patience with their own children than with other children, their own spouse, or adults in general.

Kr1ll1n said:

^^This.

It irks the crap out of me when people throw up arguments about neglectful spouses and other such nonsense. Here is why.

1. Marriage Counseling
2. Discussion with spouse
3. Divorce

#1 - Not always capable of fixing the problems, but can be a good conduit for bringing them out in to the open.
#2 - There may be a legitimate reason for the current neglect on the part of the spouse. Doesn't mean cheating is excusable because you feel like you are being ignored.
#3 - If all else fails, then go this route.

People that cheat don't seem to have the patience to try any of the above, so why should we assume they could be patient with a child. Seriously, how hard is it to wait until you are free from a bad marriage to have sex with someone else?

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So - because of #1, #2 and #3 . . .naturally. . . the offending party should lose custody of their child entirely.

It just makes no sense to me.

You are also acting as if granting shared custody is somehow condoning cheating or giving a high-five. That's hardly teh case. . .we are talking about a divorcing couple after all.

It's amazing to me the extent that some seem to want to go to in order to retaliate.

Really - does 'getting back' help heal any of the wounds and make it easier? I imagine that those who support it are in for a rude awakening when they suddenly realize that everything that they dealt with as a couple they now have to do alone if they have sole custody. Dr's appointments - school functions - sickness and injury - drama. All that.

Again, if it was me: I would WANT him involved so I'm not all of a sudden doing 100% on my own all because of what HE wanted to do - I wouldn't let his actions lead to a life of shirked parental responsibilities for one and an immense parental struggle for the other.

Aunt Spiker said:

So - because of #1, #2 and #3 . . .naturally. . . the offending party should lose custody of their child entirely.

It just makes no sense to me.

You are also acting as if granting shared custody is somehow condoning cheating or giving a high-five. That's hardly teh case. . .we are talking about a divorcing couple after all.

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No, specifically, we are talking about should a woman lose all custody because she cheated.

Aunt Spiker said:

It's amazing to me the extent that some seem to want to go to in order to retaliate.

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It's amazing to me that some people think that jeopardizing a child's future is excusable, and that they should get some free pass just because they are a parent.

Aunt Spiker said:

Really - does 'getting back' help heal any of the wounds and make it easier? I imagine that those who support it are in for a rude awakening when they suddenly realize that everything that they dealt with as a couple they now have to do alone if they have sole custody. Dr's appointments - school functions - sickness and injury - drama. All that.

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My wife was down for the count for the first 3 months of our daughter's life. I did all the diaper changes, bathing, putting down to bed, housework, working for money, etc..etc.. on top of having to change my wife's bandages and nurse her back to health. Raising kids isn't easy, doesn't mean a ****ty parent should be in the picture because you need a break.

Aunt Spiker said:

Again, if it was me: I would WANT him involved so I'm not all of a sudden doing 100% on my own all because of what HE wanted to do - I wouldn't let his actions lead to a life of shirked parental responsibilities for one and an immense parental struggle for the other.

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No, sounds like you would want him involved because you can't handle it all on your own. How far women's liberation has come, I see.



http://www.human.cornell.edu/pam/outreach/upload/parentalconflict.pdf

Guess what? Kids in households where both parents are present fare better, on average, than kids in single parent homes. If a parent, female or not, can't exercise enough patience to try the 3 things I listed, than they are not mature enough to be raising kids. Sorry, it is what it is. Regardless of how you think it should be. It's not about getting back, or retaliation. It's about doing what is best for the child or children. Cheating and ultimately causing a divorce is not good for the kids.

Hypothesis: 100% of the people in this thread who support this kind of retributive approach to child custody are embittered men who have been divorced because of adultery.

i voted other because Yes, custody is ex-wives' right, but not unconditionally. Seems weird you added that.

The poll actually implies that custody should not even be contested if adultry is commited. This would either require an additional court to determine the veracity of the claim or the complete suspension of jurisprudence on accusation. Courts occasionally attempt to venture into this arena when there are other primary issues (usually criminal), but adulterer's courts went out of style before the country was founded. Inversely, there is a high probability that an individual who considers grown-up personal issues to be relevant in the well-being of a child should not be the primary custodian.

ab9924 said:

Your position is reasonable. But I still must ask, because the question begs for itself. Why do we rubber-stamp the destruction of a child's home by ignoring cheating as a cause?

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We don't all rubber-stamp it. I personally find it horrific, but it's one of the long-term side effects of the women's liberation movement. Women don't *need* men, the way they used to, and they exercise their "right" to do whatever they wish, to whomever they want, because they have other resources these days. I find it disturbing that this is the path some women take, but it's one of the prices our society pays for social progress. We have created generations of people who are self-focused and shallow, and this is the result of it.

no no and no

Kandahar said:

Hypothesis: 100% of the people in this thread who support this kind of retributive approach to child custody are embittered men who have been divorced because of adultery.

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Frankly, I can't blame them. When you get gutted by a women whom you thought loved you, and loved her family life, it's pretty damn hard to swallow that she was lying to you.

Custody should be determined on a single factor - what is best for the child(ren). To hell with disputes between the parents. Children are rewards to the "winner" of the argument between them.

Kr1ll1n said:

People that cheat don't seem to have the patience to try any of the above, so why should we assume they could be patient with a child. Seriously, how hard is it to wait until you are free from a bad marriage to have sex with someone else?

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Because it is their child, and a parent-child relationship is completely different from a romantic love relationship.

The children need to go where it is best for them.

lizzie said:

Because it is their child, and a parent-child relationship is completely different from a romantic love relationship.

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Lizzie, am I somehow wrong in stating this -

Kr1ll1n said:

Seriously, how hard is it to wait until you are free from a bad marriage to have sex with someone else?

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Statistics have time and time again shown that a 2 parent household is what is best for the child, even when the relationship between them is very argument and fight prone.
In the study I provided earlier in the thread, with the numbers it included, "binge drinking" was the ONLY thing that increased over a single parent household against 2 parents that fight like cats and dogs.

If that person they screw around with, is more important than trying the 3 things I mentioned earlier (discussion with spouse, marriage counseling, divorce), than should they be considered as having a perfect capacity to care for and protect the child's well being? I would argue not.

Now, that being said, I understand things will happen like abuse, both physical and mental, but that really doesn't excuse cheating in the first place. If you want to walk away smelling like roses, do things the right way, and wait to have sex with whomever you wanted to outside of your marriage.

Kr1ll1n said:

Lizzie, am I somehow wrong in stating this -

Statistics have time and time again shown that a 2 parent household is what is best for the child, even when the relationship between them is very argument and fight prone.
In the study I provided earlier in the thread, with the numbers it included, "binge drinking" was the ONLY thing that increased over a single parent household against 2 parents that fight like cats and dogs.

If that person they screw around with, is more important than trying the 3 things I mentioned earlier (discussion with spouse, marriage counseling, divorce), than should they be considered as having a perfect capacity to care for and protect the child's well being? I would argue not.

Now, that being said, I understand things will happen like abuse, both physical and mental, but that really doesn't excuse cheating in the first place. If you want to walk away smelling like roses, do things the right way, and wait to have sex with whomever you wanted to outside of your marriage.

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No, you're not wrong in your statement that people can (and I would add should) wait, but my point is that the two relationships are completely different types, and a woman who cheats isn't necessarily a bad mother. I'm not defending cheaters, but I am defending a point that the two relationships can't be equivocated in order to base mothering skills as deficient or morally inferior.

lizzie said:

No, you're not wrong in your statement that people can (and I would add should) wait, but my point is that the two relationships are completely different types, and a woman who cheats isn't necessarily a bad mother. I'm not defending cheaters, but I am defending a point that the two relationships can't be equivocated in order to base mothering skills as deficient or morally inferior.

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They can when you take things like this in to account;

Another Cause of Early Puberty in Girls: Absent Dads | TIME.com

Kids getting older younger — KGOY, as it’s known — is not just a cultural phenomenon. Girls are literally hitting puberty at a younger age, and alarming the health community, since early onset puberty is often associated with a higher incidence of breast cancer and of behavioral problems. Now a new study has suggested that fathers may have a hand in how their daughters mature.Researchers from University of California, Berkeley, have discovered that girls who live in homes without a biological father physically mature sooner than those who live with their biological father. People had always assumed this was because girls in such homes were more likely to have poorer diets and, thus, higher body mass index (BMI), a ratio of height to weight that determines obesity.

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