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Is patriotism overrated?

Is patriotism overrated?


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That's interesting. I don't have that sense of community pride at all. I think the patriotism I feel for our country is just that: for our country. On the local/state levels, it's all about politics. I don't feel a sense of loyalty to a town or state; just to America. Interesting...

Exactly my point. Is it rational to feel more loyalty to 300 million other people you're likely never to meet compared to those that immediately surround you?
 
, I decided to make my triumphant return with something that has been on my mind lately.

Triumphant returns are overrated.

Doubly so when there is no triumph.
 
Exactly my point. Is it rational to feel more loyalty to 300 million other people you're likely never to meet compared to those that immediately surround you?

I don't think patriotism is loyalty to 300 million people. I think it's loyalty to my country and everything it stands for.
 
Umm there are plenty of Catholics who oppose going to war and who have committed themselves to nonviolence based on their understanding of their religion. What makes them cowards, but Quakers conscientious objectors? :confused:

Well, again, if someone can show (in times of draft, we're talking about) that they are committed to nonviolence based on their understanding of their religion, then I have no problem with anyone claiming conscientious objection to serving in our military.
 
I don't think patriotism is loyalty to 300 million people. I think it's loyalty to my country and everything it stands for.

I don't understand why the two should be mutually exclusive. Our country ultimately consists of the people who reside within it.
 
Patriotism isn't blind allegiance to people or policy. It's loyalty to an ideal - to principle. If you feel that an injustice has been committed, or ideals or principles have been betrayed, you should speak out in defense of them and speak out to preserve what you feel is great and speak out because of what you love about your country.
 
I don't understand why the two should be mutually exclusive. Our country ultimately consists of the people who reside within it.

The very definition of the word "patriotism" applies to one's country as a whole. Community pride is something entirely different. Can one feel a sense of patriotism for one's neighbor? Hardly. That's not the meaning of the word.
 
They believe peaceful reconciliation can be far more effective than violent actions. They are committed to non-violence.

If another country attacks your country and is attempting to invade it then any peaceful means of ending the war are over.

There have been instances throughout history where non-violence has worked (think MLK and Gandhi). You wouldn't say that MLK and Gandhi were "******s", would you? A lot of times non-violence can take greater strength and will than violence.

MLK going violent would have resulted in the loss of his and everyone else life with nothing accomplished. Ghandi Being a ***** was not the only factor that lead to India's independence and many would argue that India's Independence came from circumstances like WWII being a financial drain on Britain, countless freedom fighters in India and so on.
 
If another country attacks your country and is attempting to invade it then any peaceful means of ending the war are over.

A Quaker would disagree. You can disagree with Quakers and their beliefs, but calling Quakers "******s" and "disloyal pieces of ****" is rather mean.

MLK going violent would have resulted in the loss of his and everyone else life with nothing accomplished.

Exactly. MLK's success resulted directly from his non-violence approach, which goes back to what I said before, which was that non-violence has worked in the past.
 
A Quaker would disagree. You can disagree with Quakers and their beliefs, but calling Quakers "******s" and "disloyal pieces of ****" is rather mean.


Of course someone who uses their religion to ***** out would disgree with me that using your religion to weasel out of military service is ****ty thing to do.


Exactly. MLK's success resulted directly from his non-violence approach, which goes back to what I said before, which was that non-violence has worked in the past.

I don't MLK had a choice in the matter.going the violent route would have resulted in nothing except for more hatred towards black people.
 
Of course someone who uses their religion to ***** out would disgree with me that using your religion to weasel out of military service is ****ty thing to do.

I'm not a Quaker.
 
There is a distinct difference between patriotism and nationalism. What you've described is more geared toward nationalism. A true patriot loves their country, yet holds heads of state accountable and will protest against those heads of state when they believe they are not doing things in the best interest of the country and its people.

I'm a patriot in the sense that I stand up for what I believe is in the best interests of America's people... and while there are nationalists that think their country can do no wrong, I don't believe that number to be that high.
 
Patriotism to the point where you are defending things that shouldn't be defended, yes.

Look at our Constitution. We were given the freedom of speech so we could speak out against the government. The 2nd amendment so we could stand up against it if we need to. We are children of political revolution. There are many reasons to love the USA, and no doubt virtually everyone on this board does, but we shouldn't take it overboard, because there are valid things to criticize as well.
 
I am not sure this is going to come out right, but yes I think it is. In my mind a patriot is someone who does something FOR his country just not living here. You can love your country and obey its laws and enjoy its freedoms but does that make you a patriot. the minutemen were patriots and heros. Cops and fireman could be called heros. The soldiers and alot of other people.

If you live here and love your country and are loyal to it and obey its laws, that makes you a citizen but not necessarily a patriot.
 
We're really getting to the point where the problems we face as a species or as a world are far more pressing than any problems we might face as a nation. Most of our problems (climate change, nuclear proliferation, terrorism, energy production) are all problems with a global scale. The causes and effects of these problems stretch well beyond our national borders. Thinking of country first and world second is a counterproductive stance to take. To help the country, one must help the world.
Thank you so much, I was going to articulate something like this, but you hit it on the head.

I really think putting our country first doesn't promote a real transformation of the global community. That's especially true when so many of our most pressing problems are either created by too much patriotism/nationalism or affecting a majority of our society. The way I see it, thinking of country first is slowly becoming outdated and as you said, counterproductive.

By the way, I was sort of using patriotism as an umbrella term for it and nationalism, I understand those words could be used differently, but essentially touch on similar concepts. Both recognize country as an important thing, maybe even more important than most things, which is something I think is a necessary evil considering the status quo, but something we need to leave behind eventually.

Triumphant returns are overrated.

Doubly so when there is no triumph.
'Twas a joke.
 
I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

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No, it's not overrated. It's damned good.
 
I view patriotism and nationalism as two different things. Being a nationalist is what you described as chanting "USA USA!" very lowdly or saying "my country is the best". I believe that is nationalism. And American Exceptionalism falls under this in my opinion.
Being a patriot in my opinion is looking out for what is best for your country, trying to make your country better, speaking out when you believe your country is wrong. Being a patriot is not someone thinking their country is best no matter what, or the whole "my country right or wrong" attitude.

I like nationalism, and so should lefties. It binds people together under a national identity and is immensely useful for self-determination. Its extremes can be deterred without killing the entire concept.

There's nothing wrong with the concept American exceptionalism. People get it all twisted in their heads. Right-wingers have turned it into only meaning "being the best" and Left-wingers have mutated it into being mindlessness. It's not.
 
I don't think patriotism is loyalty to 300 million people. I think it's loyalty to my country and everything it stands for.

What the country stands for:
Do you mean?

Torture
Warring against Enemies that are no threat i.e. Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, Grenada, Panama
Protecting crooked bankers, "too big to fail."
Allowing "Energy Politics" to mismanage our Nation
Ignoring Global Warming

Those are the significant issues.
 
What the country stands for:
Do you mean?

Torture
Warring against Enemies that are no threat i.e. Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, Grenada, Panama
Protecting crooked bankers, "too big to fail."
Allowing "Energy Politics" to mismanage our Nation
Ignoring Global Warming

Those are the significant issues.

Wow. See I think what we stand for is a voice of reason in a world filled with hatred and oppression. Our country is a voice for every people on earth who want freedom instead of servitude. An example, that with all our faults, we are ultimately the most free people in the world. That democracy works. A message to dictators around the world that we are watching. And a message that we will spend our money and our soldiers will shed blood to help their people and protect the United States of America.

We make mistakes. Politics often gets in the way of ideals. But, in the end, we are the greatest nation on planet earth.

Yankee Doodle over and out.
 
Simple. No.
 
Its not the patriotism is overrated...its definition was changed over time. Patriotism became supporting the government instead of what it truly is which is support your country before your government. I know that may not make sense to some people, but there is nothing that is more patriotic than distrust of government. That is what America was founded on...distrust of government.

That changed to "you must support this war because it is patriotic and if you don't then you don't support the troops and are not American"....that kind of rhetoric went around. People lost the real meaning of being a patriotic American, and it has nothing to do with flag waving.
 
Wow. See I think what we stand for is a voice of reason in a world filled with hatred and oppression. Our country is a voice for every people on earth who want freedom instead of servitude. An example, that with all our faults, we are ultimately the most free people in the world. That democracy works. A message to dictators around the world that we are watching. And a message that we will spend our money and our soldiers will shed blood to help their people and protect the United States of America.

We make mistakes. Politics often gets in the way of ideals. But, in the end, we are the greatest nation on planet earth.
I personally believe that sort of righteousness is often misplaced and misguided. Yes we make mistakes, but isn't there a point where the amount of mistakes we make sort of disqualifies us from making this claim that we're the "greatest"? I mean, you say that we're a voice of reason in a world filled with hatred and oppression, but look at how much hatred oppression still exists in the US to this day.

I don't know, it's just, whenever I hear someone say something like "we are ultimately the most free people in the world" I can't help but cringe because of the realities of our situation as well as different cultural definitions of freedom.
 
Wow. See I think what we stand for is a voice of reason in a world filled with hatred and oppression. Our country is a voice for every people on earth who want freedom instead of servitude. An example, that with all our faults, we are ultimately the most free people in the world. That democracy works. A message to dictators around the world that we are watching. And a message that we will spend our money and our soldiers will shed blood to help their people and protect the United States of America.

We make mistakes. Politics often gets in the way of ideals. But, in the end, we are the greatest nation on planet earth.

Yankee Doodle over and out.

That's not actually true. We're in the top 20, but we've lost the top spot. That's the problem. We used to be on top, but it's very difficult for people to accept that it was our progressive actions, not our "America-ness" that got us there. Keep in mind, we're one of the few western nations that executes minors, we're way behind in equal rights for homosexuals, and we have a lot more racism than a lot of Europe. Did you know that we were one of the last western nations to abolish slavery? Most of South America abolished it before we did. And we had to fight a civil war in order to do that. If we hadn't, imagine how much longer we would have kept slavery in our nation.

We really aren't the greatest nation on Earth. And no, it is not a betrayal of America to think that. It's a much greater betrayal to think it when it's not true, and stop striving to make this country a bastion of freedom. Canada is probably freer than we are.
 
That's not actually true. We're in the top 20, but we've lost the top spot. That's the problem. We used to be on top, but it's very difficult for people to accept that it was our progressive actions, not our "America-ness" that got us there. Keep in mind, we're one of the few western nations that executes minors, we're way behind in equal rights for homosexuals, and we have a lot more racism than a lot of Europe. Did you know that we were one of the last western nations to abolish slavery? Most of South America abolished it before we did. And we had to fight a civil war in order to do that. If we hadn't, imagine how much longer we would have kept slavery in our nation.

We really aren't the greatest nation on Earth. And no, it is not a betrayal of America to think that. It's a much greater betrayal to think it when it's not true, and stop striving to make this country a bastion of freedom. Canada is probably freer than we are.

I don't doubt that much of what you've said is true.

But still, I can't imagine anyone living a freer life than I have, though. When a little high school girl from a blue-collar-single-mom home can, without a college education, build a business that allows her to retire at 45? Not too many places one can do that, I don't believe.

I've never gotten more than a traffic ticket...never had my freedom infringed on by the state or Federal governments...never been audited by the IRS. I regularly write letters to the Chicago Tribune criticizing my state and federal governments for their policies. Write letters to my representatives criticizing their votes. I'm free to travel pretty much anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat; sleep safely in my bed at night; have clean water; plenty to eat; enough discretionary money to do most anything I'd like. My gas and electric are cheaper than dirt. And there's no law on the books, Federal or State, that I've ever noticed restricts my freedom in any way. (Oh, okay, except for my local Building & Zoning Department). I do complain about my property taxes, but I probably wouldn't be human if I didn't do that. I'm not sure how you define freedom, but for me? All these things I've listed do it for me.

I'm interested to know why you say Canadians have more freedom than we do. Freedom to do what?

We're not perfect. We make mistakes. Our foreign policy sometimes does more harm than good, no doubt. But, no, I can't imagine a freer country than here in the states. Just can't.
 
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