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Is patriotism overrated?

Is patriotism overrated?

  • Total voters
    29
lizzie said:
I don't think it's over-rated at all, as it is a subconscious attempt to maintain unity at some level, just as tribalism or family identity is. The only time it is a problem is when it is used to overtly and consciously cause objective harm to another nation without cause.
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I think it can be harmful even when it isn't used to consciously harm another nation. For example, rooted in the idea of "American exceptionalism" (at least among SOME of its proponents) is the attitude that the United States is better than other nations. And I think when people adopt that attitude, it makes them less willing to look at the areas in which the US is comparatively weak, and the policies that other countries have successfully adopted.
 
Kandahar said:
I think it can be harmful even when it isn't used to consciously harm another nation. For example, rooted in the idea of "American exceptionalism" (at least among SOME of its proponents) is the attitude that the United States is better than other nations. And I think when people adopt that attitude, it makes them less willing to look at the areas in which the US is comparatively weak, and the policies that other countries have successfully adopted.
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Well, frankly, I think it's quite normal to think that your nation is better than other nations, at some level, as it is what you identify with, and there is no doubt that nations vary greatly.
 
jamesrage said:
Depends on the war and policies.For example if our country was attacked and you refused to join the military to defend us from that country regardless of your reason that would make you a disloyal unpatriotic piece of ****. If we decided to attack a country that was no threat to us and you refused to join the military the you wouldn't be a unpatriotic disloyal piece of ****.
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Are Quakers "disloyal unpatriotic pieces of ****"? I went to a Quaker college and although I'm not a Quaker myself, I disagree with this comment.

What about those who refused to go to war in Iraq?
 
Cilogy said:
I'm back.

Even though I haven't posted in over 2 years and like 99% of you don't even know/remember who I am, I decided to make my triumphant return with something that has been on my mind lately.

I genuinely feel that being a patriot is overrated and slowly becoming just blatantly obnoxious as time goes on. It's rooted in discrimination and crosses over into just pure jingoism at times. From things like screaming "USA! USA! USA!" as loud as you can to arguing about what nation is the best, it has become more and more clear to me that it's all just archaic and neanderthal-like garbage.

Maybe I'll elaborate later on, but I want your opinion and I'd like it if we could get a good discussion going about this. So what do you think?
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You remind me of a question my dad asked me:

"Maggie, who's the most important person in the world to you?" I thought a minute and answered, "My husband." He said: "Absolutely WRONG." The most important person in the world to you had better be YOU."

WTF?? "Why??"

"Because of you don't put yourself first...for the most part be good to yourself and look after your own self-interests ... you can't take care of those around you that you care about."

Reminds me of patriotism. Our own interests first. Only by being a strong nation can we help others. A strong economy, strong military and conscientious leaders in Washington. Whether we like it or we don't, our nation has and will continue to fight tyranny abroad and continues to stand between those who would do each other harm and those who would harm us.

USA! USA! USA!

####

One of my favorite all-time quotes, from Colin Powell:

"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in, and otherwise we have returned home to seek our own, you know, to seek our own lives in peace, to live our own lives in peace. But there comes a time when soft power or talking with evil will not work where, unfortunately, hard power is the only thing that works."
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zstep18 said:
Are Quakers "disloyal unpatriotic pieces of ****"? I went to a Quaker college and although I'm not a Quaker myself, I disagree with this comment.
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Hiding behind religion to weasel out of defending your country is a piece of **** thing to do.

What about those who refused to go to war in Iraq?
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If they joined the military then they were obligated to serve in any war the US engages in.
 
jamesrage said:
Hiding behind religion to weasel out of defending your country is a piece of **** thing to do.
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It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.
 
zstep18 said:
It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.
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Being that I'm not thoroughly knowledgeable on Quakerism, would they defend themselves if personally threatened, or are they pacifist to the point of martyrdom? Just curious. I can understand their stance on pacifism, as I tend toward that myself, but I am not pacifist when it comes to internal threats at all.
 
zstep18 said:
It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.
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Then I assume they don't join the military? If they join the military and don't "go where they're sent," they're hypocrites.
 
jamesrage said:
Actually those two words practically synonymous with each other.

Patriotism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
: love for or devotion to one's country

Nationalism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
2
: a nationalist movement or government
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This is very clearly what causes the problem. Many confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. I'm patriotic, but I'm definitely not a "blind patriot" but will admit to having been one when I joined the military. Vietnam woke me up. There seemed no reason for the war and lots of dying was going on. Lies, distortions, and nationalistic jingoism filled the air. "Liberty and Justice for all" means a great deal to me and overlaps to include moral issues and it does not say "for all in the USA." That is what incenses me about our current warmongering for profit economy and policies. I know the good nature of the people of this Nation and all Nations, but the money flows of the planet dictate policies that are detrimental to humanity. I don't know how we overcome this and this election season and lack of debate on the important issues regarding the planet and humans demonstrates clearly that we have a long way to go. There's nothing wrong with being patriotic, but as the Dem Socialist stated it's not about "my Country, right or wrong." When we're wrong, make noise, protest, squeal, whatever it takes to bring attention to the problem.
 
lizzie said:
Being that I'm not thoroughly knowledgeable on Quakerism, would they defend themselves if personally threatened, or are they pacifist to the point of martyrdom? Just curious. I can understand their stance on pacifism, as I tend toward that myself, but I am not pacifist when it comes to internal threats at all.
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I would say it depends on who you ask. Here is what Thomas Chalkley, who was a Quaker missionary, said, "I being innocent if I was killed in my body, my soul might be happy; but if I killed him, he dying in his wickedness would consequently be unhappy; and if I was killed he might live to repent; but If I killed him, be would have no time to repent."
 
MaggieD said:
Then I assume they don't join the military? If they join the military and don't "go where they're sent," they're hypocrites.
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I was thinking more under the assumption of what if there were a military draft.

And if a Quaker were to vocally denounce violence and war, would that make him or her unpatriotic?
 
We're really getting to the point where the problems we face as a species or as a world are far more pressing than any problems we might face as a nation. Most of our problems (climate change, nuclear proliferation, terrorism, energy production) are all problems with a global scale. The causes and effects of these problems stretch well beyond our national borders. Thinking of country first and world second is a counterproductive stance to take. To help the country, one must help the world.
 
zstep18 said:
It's not as if a Quakers refusal to go to war is a matter of convenience. Pacifism is pretty much the central tenet of Quakerism.
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Regardless if pacifism is brain washed into them or not is irrelevant to the fact it is a ****ty thing to sit back while your fellow countrymen are laying down their lives to defend the country while you go "but my religion says I must be a *****,so I can't fight".
 
MaggieD said:
You remind me of a question my dad asked me:

"Maggie, who's the most important person in the world to you?" I thought a minute and answered, "My husband." He said: "Absolutely WRONG." The most important person in the world to you had better be YOU."

WTF?? "Why??"

"Because of you don't put yourself first...for the most part be good to yourself and look after your own self-interests ... you can't take care of those around you that you care about."

Reminds me of patriotism. Our own interests first. Only by being a strong nation can we help others. A strong economy, strong military and conscientious leaders in Washington. Whether we like it or we don't, our nation has and will continue to fight tyranny abroad and continues to stand between those who would do each other harm and those who would harm us.

USA! USA! USA!

####

One of my favorite all-time quotes, from Colin Powell:
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Wise man your dad.
 
Cilogy said:
From things like screaming "USA! USA! USA!" as loud as you can to arguing about what nation is the best, it has become more and more clear to me that it's all just archaic and neanderthal-like garbage.
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That's nationalism. Debating someone who doesn't know the difference is silly. Good day.
 
lizzie said:
Being that I'm not thoroughly knowledgeable on Quakerism, would they defend themselves if personally threatened, or are they pacifist to the point of martyrdom? Just curious. I can understand their stance on pacifism, as I tend toward that myself, but I am not pacifist when it comes to internal threats at all.
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Pacifist to the point of marterdom actually. They will serve in the capacity of medics though.
 
MaggieD said:
You remind me of a question my dad asked me:

"Maggie, who's the most important person in the world to you?" I thought a minute and answered, "My husband." He said: "Absolutely WRONG." The most important person in the world to you had better be YOU."

WTF?? "Why??"

"Because of you don't put yourself first...for the most part be good to yourself and look after your own self-interests ... you can't take care of those around you that you care about."

Reminds me of patriotism. Our own interests first. Only by being a strong nation can we help others. A strong economy, strong military and conscientious leaders in Washington. Whether we like it or we don't, our nation has and will continue to fight tyranny abroad and continues to stand between those who would do each other harm and those who would harm us.

USA! USA! USA!

####

One of my favorite all-time quotes, from Colin Powell:
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Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you here but merely playing devil's advocate. If you, and those around you, are the most important people in your life, why is patriotism generally valued more than state pride? Or county pride? Or community pride? Shouldn't you be most proud of your community/neighborhood first, since those are the people you generally interact and meet face-to-face with on a daily basis?
 
I think you confuse patriotism with boorishness. Patriotism should be worn in one's heart, not on their sleeve.
 
jamesrage said:
Regardless if pacifism is brain washed into them or not is irrelevant to the fact it is a ****ty thing to sit back while your fellow countrymen are laying down their lives to defend the country while you go "but my religion says I must be a *****,so I can't fight".
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They believe peaceful reconciliation can be far more effective than violent actions. They are committed to non-violence.

There have been instances throughout history where non-violence has worked (think MLK and Gandhi). You wouldn't say that MLK and Gandhi were "******s", would you? A lot of times non-violence can take greater strength and will than violence.
 
spanky said:
I think you confuse patriotism with boorishness. Patriotism should be worn in one's heart, not on their sleeve.
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While I agree with the sentiment, I have this avatar because militant democratic peace theory is my most grating issue and I might as well put that out front - this being a political debate forum.
 
zstep18 said:
I was thinking more under the assumption of what if there were a military draft.

And if a Quaker were to vocally denounce violence and war, would that make him or her unpatriotic?
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I see. Well, there is allowance for conscientious objection even in times of a military draft. Those whose faith strongly objects to war/violence/etc. should be allowed to opt out, I think, if their pattern of living has shown that their faith is very important in their lives. JMVHO.

Let's face it. No Christian religion endorses going to war and killing people. (At least none that I know of...) Those who say, "I'm Catholic, I'm going to evade the draft," can go to hell. They're cowards.
 
MaggieD said:
I see. Well, there is allowance for conscientious objection even in times of a military draft. Those whose faith strongly objects to war/violence/etc. should be allowed to opt out, I think, if their pattern of living has shown that their faith is very important in their lives. JMVHO.

Let's face it. No Christian religion endorses going to war and killing people. (At least none that I know of...) Those who say, "I'm Catholic, I'm going to evade the draft," can go to hell. They're cowards.
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Umm there are plenty of Catholics who oppose going to war and who have committed themselves to nonviolence based on their understanding of their religion. What makes them cowards, but Quakers conscientious objectors? :confused:
 
I see patriotism as involving an awareness and a commitment to values rather than just just allegiance. Patriotism becomes jingoist when it is offered unquestioningly.

I see plenty of Jingoists who think America is always right. Even when we torture people, they will support the action. I also see plenty of anti-Americans who think America is always wrong. THey are so reactive by nature, they defend those who wish to destroy us.

To me a patriot is one who believes in our values, thinks they are a good thing and wishes to promote these values, but is also willing to stand up in such a way as to say "we need to be better than that". It isn't a republican/democrat thing, a liberal/conservative thing or a left/right thing. It is a basing one's patriotism upon values thing and when a person loses sight of the values and follows blindly, they stop being a patriot.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you here but merely playing devil's advocate. If you, and those around you, are the most important people in your life, why is patriotism generally valued more than state pride? Or county pride? Or community pride? Shouldn't you be most proud of your community/neighborhood first, since those are the people you generally interact and meet face-to-face with on a daily basis?
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That's interesting. I don't have that sense of community pride at all. I think the patriotism I feel for our country is just that: for our country. On the local/state levels, Washington, it's all about politics. I don't feel a sense of loyalty to a town or state; just to America. Interesting...
 
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