Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

274ina · Oct 25, 2012

Kandahar said:
That's what I'm asking. Why do we want to remove US prices from world prices in the first place? Why is this whole goal a good thing? What does it accomplish?

274 - Its so USA people dont have to pay Iran or war premiums or pay more for currency manipulation.

It's quite simple: I buy my share of $1 gas. Then I go find someone who doesn't drive and buy their share of gas. Then I do that with a couple million different people, take the gas to Canada, and sell it at the REAL price. A risk-free profit...and if I can think of that scheme in 30 seconds, you can bet that there will be large businesses that spring up doing exactly that.

274 - Selling the USA gas to anyone out side USA is banned.......as I said

In other words, it will function exactly like a market? And they can sell these points for whatever price they want? How is that any different than just selling a gallon of gas for whatever price they want? What does the introduction of the "point system" accomplish?

274 - it is differnt because the low gas users will get the cash from High gas users. Benefitsing those with scooters and electric cars, and punishing those with hummers.

The US produces about 5.7 million barrels of oil per day, and consumes about 18.9 million barrels per day. In other words, even if all US-produced oil was consumed in the US, it would only be about 30% of our total demand. The other 70% would be taxed at your insane $9 per gallon rate.

And remind me again, what exactly is the point of making sure US-produced oil stays in the US, and foreign-produced oil stays out?

274 - to be energy independant, and to stop punishing the USA poor. you cant use mackro figures. 48% of USA oil use is for gas/cars. Only this aand diesel would be included, after subtracing use
for say 80% of commercial needs.

So oil workers in foreign countries are slaves? What?
Are you aware that oil is one of the most capital-intensive (i.e. least dependent on labor costs) industries in the world? Since labor costs are practically IRRELEVANT to the oil trade, you don't need to worry competing against "slaves" or anyone else. Furthermore, it's not like US oil is just sitting unused because no one will buy it...virtually ALL oil produced is sold.

I an talking aobut free trade and global markets. Labor or oil market does not matter, either way, it SCREWS US Citizens.

LaMidRighter · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
rationing worked just fine in WW2. And its not a ration card, you can buy all you want.

Two things;
1) Rationing didn't work in WW2, people were selling and trading ration cards left and right. Cartoonists were lampooning the effort in the pre-movie shorts.
2) At least there was a constitutional reason to ration, it was a war based effort that fell within powers of the federal government. Rationing was still not effective, there were PLENTY of frontline shortages.

market controls are for all things........and they work fine too. Your "free Trrade" does not exist except for illegal things.

Care to explain why? I already know the answer to this but want to guage your grasp of economics.

Those with travel heavy jobs would have gas paid by the employer. I am only talking personal consumption.

You are very wrong on that. Plenty of employers pay more to their employees rather than pay a gas card, and there are tons of contractors who work independently.

Those that use lots of gas would pay less over all, and those that conserve would get more cash from high gas users. Dont like it? To bad.
THose that use lots can buy all they want, use there allowed amount, then buy others points, then buy world priced gas to no limit.

This is just economically impossible. You cannot produce more and use less.

Sharing works. it just hurts profits. Kind of like 50 people paying $1 month using one internet connection for $50 month. Instead of 50 people paying $40 month LMAO!
Communism works great, its called the Library, roads, Firemen, police..........etc etc etc

You do not understand communism apparently and where it has failed.

Deuce · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
I an talking aobut free trade and global markets. Labor or oil market does not matter, either way, it SCREWS US Citizens.

Your idea is mathematically flawed. We can't produce enough oil domestically to meet our needs.

LaMidRighter · Oct 25, 2012

Deuce said:
Your idea is mathematically flawed. We can't produce enough oil domestically to meet our needs.

And that is if we had a singular fuel with a static demand. When one considers that the same gallon of oil produces diesel, gasoline, kerosine(jet fuel is a similar composition of higher grade), heating oil, distillates, and lubricating oils all adjusted according to current market demand it makes no sense to artificially limit the gallons up for consumption or segregate them. It's already a complicated mathmatical formula just to insure there are no shortages as is.

Kandahar · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
274 - Its so USA people dont have to pay Iran or war premiums or pay more for currency manipulation.

First of all, the US doesn't import any oil from Iran. Fail.
Second of all, only 12.9% of our oil supply comes from the entire Persian Gulf REGION. Canada alone supplies us with more oil than all of those countries.
And I have no idea what your offhand reference to "currency manipulation" has to do with oil, but I'm going to assume it's just some random rambling instead of an actual economic point.

274 - Selling the USA gas to anyone out side USA is banned.......as I said

If the profit is there, it's going to happen whether it's banned or not. If the REAL price of gas is $3.50 a gallon and I can buy it at $1 a gallon, there is so much opportunity for profit that you can be sure someone will do it. This will lead to a shortage of $1 gasoline and leave most consumers paying your insane $9 rate.

274 - it is differnt because the low gas users will get the cash from High gas users. Benefitsing those with scooters and electric cars, and punishing those with hummers.

Why wouldn't a simple gas tax/rebate do exactly the same thing? It benefits those who don't use much gasoline, at the expense of those who do. Tax everyone $1 per gallon of gas they consume, then cut everyone a check for the amount of revenue per capita. A much simpler scheme, same result. Minus the incomprehensible protectionism aspect of it.

274 - to be energy independant, and to stop punishing the USA poor.

Energy independence cannot be achieved by passing a law declaring it. That isn't how the real world works. I question why "energy independence" is even a worthwhile goal in the first place, but in any case it's simple math: The US only produces 30% of the amount of oil it consumes. That is a FACT, and no amount of legislative wand-waving changes it.

you cant use mackro figures. 48% of USA oil use is for gas/cars. Only this aand diesel would be included, after subtracing use
for say 80% of commercial needs.

So only the oil that is used in gas would be taxed at this higher rate? Then the foreign oil would just be used in those other sectors instead. What would that accomplish?

I an talking aobut free trade and global markets. Labor or oil market does not matter, either way, it SCREWS US Citizens.

OK, your argument is so incoherent and poorly thought out that I think I'm done here. Suffice it to say that your scheme doesn't work. Have a good day.

274ina · Oct 25, 2012

Deuce said:
Your idea is mathematically flawed. We can't produce enough oil domestically to meet our needs.

No its not.

rough figures.

Say 40% reduction in gas use is needed to meet rising domestic production. (i am ONLY talking about 48% of USA oil use that is gas)

50% of USA cars are SUV or truck, get rid of most of those. Replace with 40mpg cars.
some buy electric cars
some buy scooters

That would EASLY cut 40% off USA gas use.

SUV guy example.

per 1000 miles

SUV 66 gal gas
Eco cruze 25 gal (still a gas car - if he went electric this is ZERO)

There is massive cut in gas use right there.........way more than 40% for the SAME drive time.

So if car gas use is cut 50%, then that means about a 25% reduction in over all oil use.

Now we are down to 14.75 mbpd. ever so close to USA production.........

LaMidRighter · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
No its not.

rough figures.

Say 40% reduction in gas use is needed to meet rising domestic production. (i am ONLY talking about 48% of USA oil use that is gas)

50% of USA cars are SUV or truck, get rid of most of those. Replace with 40mpg cars.
some buy electric cars
some buy scooters

That would EASLY cut 40% off USA gas use.

SUV guy example.

per 1000 miles

SUV 66 gal gas
Eco cruze 25 gal (still a gas car - if he went electric this is ZERO)

There is massive cut in gas use right there.........way more than 40% for the SAME drive time.

So if car gas use is cut 50%, then that means about a 25% reduction in over all oil use.

Now we are down to 14.75 mbpd. ever so close to USA production.........

So in other words if you can successfully FORCE people to live down by cost the numbers should bear out. It's not going to happen, people need trucks for work purposes, families need larger vehicles and they will have to use them. So that burns off at least 20 percent of your supposed "savings", as well people use other petroleum products such as jet fuel, so I guess business travel has to be regulated under this plan, people use heating oil so I guess they'll just have to use an electric heater which uses fossil fuel plants(oops), products still have to get to market which requires diesel powered rigs, all of these come from the same gallon of gas. Your numbers will not line up.

274ina · Oct 25, 2012

Kandahar said:
First of all, the US doesn't import any oil from Iran. Fail.
Second of all, only 12.9% of our oil supply comes from the entire Persian Gulf REGION. Canada alone supplies us with more oil than all of those countries.
And I have no idea what your offhand reference to "currency manipulation" has to do with oil, but I'm going to assume it's just some random rambling instead of an actual economic point.

If the profit is there, it's going to happen whether it's banned or not. If the REAL price of gas is $3.50 a gallon and I can buy it at $1 a gallon, there is so much opportunity for profit that you can be sure someone will do it. This will lead to a shortage of $1 gasoline and leave most consumers paying your insane $9 rate.

Why wouldn't a simple gas tax/rebate do exactly the same thing? It benefits those who don't use much gasoline, at the expense of those who do. Tax everyone $1 per gallon of gas they consume, then cut everyone a check for the amount of revenue per capita. A much simpler scheme, same result. Minus the incomprehensible protectionism aspect of it.

Energy independence cannot be achieved by passing a law declaring it. That isn't how the real world works. I question why "energy independence" is even a worthwhile goal in the first place, but in any case it's simple math: The US only produces 30% of the amount of oil it consumes. That is a FACT, and no amount of legislative wand-waving changes it.

So only the oil that is used in gas would be taxed at this higher rate? Then the foreign oil would just be used in those other sectors instead. What would that accomplish?

OK, your argument is so incoherent and poorly thought out that I think I'm done here. Suffice it to say that your scheme doesn't work. Have a good day.

Well you dont even understand the oil market..........

IRan oil embargo and threats of closing Hormuze RAISES oil price. The WORLD oil price we all pay. no YOU FAIL! LMAO

Currency manipulation allows the UE with a high currency, to buy oil, traded in USD, at a CHEAP price becasue the dollar has fallen for 10 yearss. Agian, FAIL.

You still cant figure out that you would only be allowed to buy say 50 gal month of USA gas?

30% ???? WOW, you are an idiot. Go to EIA site and learn to read.

EIA quote
"The United States relied on net imports (imports minus exports) for about 45% of the petroleum (crude oil and petroleum products) that we consumed in 2011"

274ina · Oct 25, 2012

LaMidRighter said:
So in other words if you can successfully FORCE people to live down by cost the numbers should bear out. It's not going to happen, people need trucks for work purposes, families need larger vehicles and they will have to use them. So that burns off at least 20 percent of your supposed "savings", as well people use other petroleum products such as jet fuel, so I guess business travel has to be regulated under this plan, people use heating oil so I guess they'll just have to use an electric heater which uses fossil fuel plants(oops), products still have to get to market which requires diesel powered rigs, all of these come from the same gallon of gas. Your numbers will not line up.

Work trucks are not included......

Family can use 40 mpg, 4 door eco cruze just fine.........and there are electric vans too.

Jets not included........

Trucks not included

nice try at more distractions.

LaMidRighter · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
Work trucks are not included......

Family can use 40 mpg, 4 door eco cruze just fine.........and there are electric vans too.

So a work truck that doubles as a family vehicle is now exempt? Great, so everyone now can buy a utility vehicle and avoid the ration. Thanks for the clarification, BTW, most family vehicles are used to get to work so they should get a utility vehicle exemption too yes?

Jets not included........

Why not, they use more fuel than commuter vehicles? And the fuel takes away from the supply of other fuels per gallon?

Trucks not included

Again, why not?

nice try at more distractions.

Distractions? No, you I am giving you the myriad of flaws that come with rationing systems and market controls.

274ina · Oct 25, 2012

LaMidRighter said:
So a work truck that doubles as a family vehicle is now exempt? Great, so everyone now can buy a utility vehicle and avoid the ration. Thanks for the clarification, BTW, most family vehicles are used to get to work so they should get a utility vehicle exemption too yes?

Why not, they use more fuel than commuter vehicles? And the fuel takes away from the supply of other fuels per gallon?

Again, why not?

Distractions? No, you I am giving you the myriad of flaws that come with rationing systems and market controls.

If they want to pay full world price for gas and commercial insurance on a family vehicle fine. Then they can pay that.

Jet fuel is not gas........and I would eliminate jets by building high speed trains between cities, but that is another issue.

There are no flaws, it would be cheaper for all since 60% of oil would be priced cheaper.
details are for experts to worry about. All I am presenting is a basic idea.

The gas points are tied to the people. They are not tied to a vehicle. No reason a person cant sell his points to his boss for commercial use........
Again, empowering the person......

jamesrage · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
Issue each citizen a card good for there share of domestic gas. (unleaded, diesel, premium) Current gas card holders would use there current cards.

Domestic gas is local price only, taxed 25% of present tax and priced at low USA price. It cant be sold overseas so the price will remain low. Other restrictions might be needed, that’s for the experts to figure out.

Imported gas is dyed and taxed $4.00 a gallon added to WORLD price.

This way those of us that conserve and help America do not pay for the moron with a hummer that enjoys bowing to Arabs.

You are free to trade your domestic gas points to other card holders. (hence a great $ boost to those with scooters and electric cars)

The infrastructure is there. The old regular – unleaded split. So there is no big investment needed.

I say no.Mostly because don't like the idea of trying to switch everyone to electric cars. That would drive up demand and cost of electricity, which could result in many areas of the country facing rolling black outs.

Neomalthusian · Oct 25, 2012

Some people are so intent on the government controlling every aspect of the economy deemed imperfect that they cannot be bothered by details such as whether it works or not.

274ina · Oct 25, 2012

jamesrage said:
I say no.Mostly because don't like the idea of trying to switch everyone to electric cars. That would drive up demand and cost of electricity, which could result in many areas of the country facing rolling black outs.

1: Electricity is a regulated market, they are not allowed to gouge like the oil corps.

2: rolling black out cant happen, USA has capacity for 85 or 185 million electric cars with no changes.....(from memory)
Note the tiny use of power at night of the grid, this is when people would charge cars.

Live use of a CA electric plant.
California ISO - Todays Outlook

Carjosse · Oct 25, 2012

Why do Americans say unleaded isn't it just assumed, I've always wondered this?

Fisher · Oct 25, 2012

Electric cars cost a billion dollars and look like they are made by Fisher-Price. No thanks, I've got crap to haul around. "Besides, electric cars are the way, Bro" folks must think that the electrical grid has a limitless supply of electrons created by Magic Fairies in the middle of the night. It would be a disaster if everybody plugged in at 5:30-6:00 when they got home around the same time and started cooking dinner and doing laundry and all the things that suck up the volts.

Bob Blaylock · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
Issue each citizen a card good for there [sic] share of domestic gas. (unleaded, diesel, premium) Current gas card holders would use there [sic] current cards.
·
·
·
This way those of us that conserve and help America do not pay for the moron with a hummer that enjoys bowing to Arabs.

Someone who is so illiterate that he doesn't even know the difference between “there” and “their” ought not be so fast to call anyone else a “moron”. It really helps, if you are going to cast aspersions on anyone else's intelligence, to be able to appear at least as intelligent as those whose intelligence you are disparaging.

Calvincoolidge · Oct 25, 2012

I think we should expand offshore drilling, and within a time frame become oil independent... Through tax cuts,Tax eliminations on businesses including oil companies. Drill ANWR and anywhere that has oil that is owned by the govt or that someone wants to sell, or someone can privately drill and sell. Free market rules, with incentives... NO EMINENT DOMAIN...meanwhile working on nuclear technology.

jamesrage · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
1: Electricity is a regulated market, they are not allowed to gouge like the oil corps.

Still does not change the fact that increased usage leads to more demand and if that demand exceeds what can be produced then they will charge more money. Hot summers and cold winters increase demand for electricity and you want to throw the burden that charging 85-185 cars on top of that.

2: rolling black out cant happen, USA has capacity for 85 or 185 million electric cars with no changes.....(from memory)
Note the tiny use of power at night of the grid, this is when people would charge cars.

Rolling black outs can happened and have happened in the past.Population jammed packed cities have higher demands for electricity

Rolling blackout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LaMidRighter · Oct 25, 2012

274ina said:
If they want to pay full world price for gas and commercial insurance on a family vehicle fine. Then they can pay that.

Jet fuel is not gas........and I would eliminate jets by building high speed trains between cities, but that is another issue.

Jet fuel and gasoline come from crude oil, they are consumed as demanded. It's irrelevant that they are different by products. High speed rail is a complete failure, ask Spain.

There are no flaws, it would be cheaper for all since 60% of oil would be priced cheaper.
details are for experts to worry about. All I am presenting is a basic idea.

Ah, so you want experts to figure out details but claim assertively there are no flaws. Does not compute.

The gas points are tied to the people. They are not tied to a vehicle. No reason a person cant sell his points to his boss for commercial use........
Again, empowering the person......

This is complete bull****. As Kandahar already pointed out, why should we have to buy and sell ration points when we can just buy as needed now?

DaveFagan · Oct 25, 2012

Fisher said:
Electric cars cost a billion dollars and look like they are made by Fisher-Price. No thanks, I've got crap to haul around. "Besides, electric cars are the way, Bro" folks must think that the electrical grid has a limitless supply of electrons created by Magic Fairies in the middle of the night. It would be a disaster if everybody plugged in at 5:30-6:00 when they got home around the same time and started cooking dinner and doing laundry and all the things that suck up the volts.

Love that fairie dust. Why not use the exhaust (75% of the power in gasoline goes out the exhaust as waste heat) from our conventional cars to heat a storage material and tap that storage material immediately on arriving home for home heat, or A/C, or whatever and use 100% of our gasoline instead of 25%. You've heard it before because it's one of my pet peeves. Increase efficiency at the local level.

Fisher · Oct 25, 2012

DaveFagan said:
Love that fairie dust. Why not use the exhaust (75% of the power in gasoline goes out the exhaust as waste heat) from our conventional cars to heat a storage material and tap that storage material immediately on arriving home for home heat, or A/C, or whatever and use 100% of our gasoline instead of 25%. You've heard it before because it's one of my pet peeves. Increase efficiency at the local level.

I am all for efficiency but I am not one of the special people who wants society to stop using any oil at midnight tonight to avoid the end of humanity as we know it.

Neomalthusian · Oct 25, 2012

DaveFagan said:
Love that fairie dust. Why not use the exhaust (75% of the power in gasoline goes out the exhaust as waste heat) from our conventional cars to heat a storage material and tap that storage material immediately on arriving home for home heat, or A/C, or whatever and use 100% of our gasoline instead of 25%. You've heard it before because it's one of my pet peeves. Increase efficiency at the local level.

Do you have any literature on why this hasn't been contemplated, developed and implemented already? If it's as easy as you describe, you could become fabulously wealthy.

DaveFagan · Oct 25, 2012

Neomalthusian said:
Do you have any literature on why this hasn't been contemplated, developed and implemented already? If it's as easy as you describe, you could become fabulously wealthy.

I didn't state that it was easy. I share the idea because it is a good one and I can not afford to develop it. I don't care if someone else profits from it, but they won't be patenting anything because I've made it public knowledge. It is practically, logically and economically feasible. It would add costs to a car for sure. The pollution rules regarding cars are a bunch of bullcrap. Do you remember the 1970 model year cars and the instant drop in gas mileage to 10 miles per gallon because it would fight pollution.. The gov't thought process at work. All costs filter downhill until they get to the end user, even costs that are blatantly wrong. Most gov't pollution control is wrong. As for electric cars, the purists want them just electric. A nice little 8-10 horsepower gasoline engine to backup and charge dying batteries would extend the range to practical levels. Run that little exhaust pipe into some phase change salts and when you get home flow the hot salts into your heat exchanger and flow some cold salts back into the car. Have an exhaust bypass if you cannot change your salts after they become saturated with heat.

274ina · Oct 25, 2012

LaMidRighter said:
This is complete bull****. As Kandahar already pointed out, why should we have to buy and sell ration points when we can just buy as needed now?

we already have dirt cheap marine fuel that is dyed, cheap and not taxed. I dont see people lining up at the marine pump with cars..........
So yes, the dying thing works.

Idea to control gas prices and help conversion to electric cars.

Do you support this Gas price idea?

Yes

No

Part of it, I will explain in a post.

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