• We will be taking the forum down for maintenance at [3:30 PM CDT] - in 25 minutes. We should be down less than 1 hour.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Should the country pay for women's contraceptives?

Should the country (taxes) pay for women's contraception?

  • Yes

    Votes: 41 41.8%
  • No

    Votes: 57 58.2%

  • Total voters
    98
Really, subsidized contraception is the most basic and benign form of eugenics. It should be a no-brainer for anyone who gives a damn about the genetic stock of the nation.

I was going to say something similar. This is partially about soft eugenics and being rid undesirables, isn't it? The foul fruits of the unconscionable selfishness of materialism.
 
Babies do not create cycles of poverty. Babies are born in to cultures that encourage dependence and lack a work ethic. Babies are the result, not the cause of, poverty.

Babies born to poor mothers certainly do. The cycle would be a lot easier to get out of if that baby weren't there. The simple, irrefutable fact that babies cost money and time is not "encouraging dependence and lack of work ethic." It's the reality of children.

As birth control paid for by government or insurance companies, nothing.

I gave you reasons why you're wrong, and you did nothing but repeat the same baseless statement.
 
Should medical treatment for the following conditions be covered?

-Ovarian cysts
-Acne
-Endometriosis
-Irregular menstrual cycles
-Anemia

FYI: The best and in some cases the only treatment for these ailments are birth control pills. It doesn't even mean the patient is sexually active. Sexually abstainate Roman Catholic nuns might be prescribed birth control pills to treat these conditions. I'm aware of one teenage young lady who had insurance through her mom's job at a Catholic hospital that refused to cover birth control pills. She absolutely did not need birth control pills for pregnancy prevention but she did need them for cystic ovaries. The condition got so bad she eventually needed surgery.

Aspirin not only treats headaches, it also is used as a heart health therapy at Drs. direction. Benadryl not only treat hay fever, its also used as an emergency bee hive attack antidote and as sleeping pills. Many medications have numerous possible uses. IMHO its unfortunate to get hung up on the terminology of "birth control pills".

You're trying to muddy the waters. These pills can be used for the legitimate treatment of disease. For those purposes they of course ought to be covered. But I repeat...pregnancy is not a disease that requires treatment or prevention, and thus the cost of pills that prevent pregnancy are elective and ought not be covered.
 
Using contraception is not "bad behavior," and the mind-blowing degree of ignorance it requires for someone to think that is just so beyond me I can't even comprehend it. Using contraception is good, responsible behavior.

Voluntarily doing something that you can't afford is always bad behavior.

The fact that there is a fair likelihood a human life can result of your voluntarily bad behavior, one which you clearly can't afford to take care of, only increases how bad of a decision it actually is.
 
Last edited:
It's not my place to judge anyone for taking contraceptives, but I don't see why I should be obligated to pay for someone else's birth control out of my pocket.

Buy your own.
 
I say no. Being able to get these things at the expense of others not only enables bad behavior, but reinforces the entitlement ideology. Men and women should take responsibility for their decisions, not get a free ride to be irresponsible.

Let me start off by saying that I'm no fan of taxpayer supported services. However - we already pay for public assistance in many forms. Welfare, WIC, Medicaid, etc... what is the difference between using taxpayer dollars to support paying for birth control for those who need it, yet can not afford it?

My argument for supporting such a thing, is saving taxpayer dollars in the long run. We would no longer be supporting unemployed women/men with children that are using many different public assistance programs. Meaning, it would be cheaper preventing unwanted pregnancies and less of a drain on taxpayer money, the less people that broken system has to support to begin with.

I'm all about personal responsibility for women AND men. However, unless and until we fix the social programs that taxpayers are already shelling out millions of dollars for - I would think it would be beneficial overall to support prevention of unwanted pregnancies.

Although, it would still be up to the person(s) receiving 'free' birth control to actually USE it. That is a different topic entirely.
 
Well ****, let's just fast forward it then. May as well collect semen/eggs from each person once they're to the age they can produce such...store them...and then have them do a mandatory vesectamy / Tubal ligation.

That would save us even MORE money in the long run and even LESS single mothers on Welfare and even LESS demand for other public services because it would no longer be relying on people to make the choice to use birth control (which, even with it free in a multitude of places today, many still choose not to do).

After all, enhanced government control into the private sector and public lives is okay in the name of less single mothers on welfare...so why stop with an ineffective measure like free birth control?

Maybe we should also provide mandatory Pokemon games to keep the kids too busy for sex?

My point is that nothing you brought up has anything to do with what I suggested in my original post.
 
Babies born to poor mothers certainly do. The cycle would be a lot easier to get out of if that baby weren't there. The simple, irrefutable fact that babies cost money and time is not "encouraging dependence and lack of work ethic." It's the reality of children.

Are you under the impression storks bring babies?
 
You did no such thing. And I haven't repeated myself but once in this thread.

Yes I did. Here, let's try it in list form.

1. Not all women in poverty are concerned about STD's. They may be in relationships or married.
2. Condoms alone are not ideal contraception. Condoms should be used with something else for best results (especially for poor women who may not have extra money to blow on EC if it breaks).
3. Other forms of contraception may, in fact, be cheaper than condoms.
 
Last edited:
Everyone's being really ****ing stupid when they argue that if we stop supporting the poor fools in society then the poor fools will stop reproducing. :roll It's not to support the parents and their bad choices - it's to help the kids who are born into such an environment have a better chance at not being stuck in the life they were born into.

I'd rather make efforts to boost kids out of their parent's trap than anything else . . .quality of life matters more than anything.


Maybe if we stop paying for WIC, etc. they'll start making better decisions.

Oh sure - and then kids can die from polio and other things. WIC, etc - does more than just cover birth control and some food.

Babies do not create cycles of poverty. Babies are born in to cultures that encourage dependence and lack a work ethic. Babies are the result, not the cause of, poverty.

As birth control paid for by government or insurance companies, nothing.

Lack of work ethic? You know - in some places being employed FULL TIME still places you in the lower percentile of income and if you have one child or two you're well into poverty.

Take me for example - when I was employed as management I was full time and earned $8.00/hr - around here (at that time) that was doing pretty damn well. That was 40 x 8 = $320/week - over the course of a year that's around $16,000

$16,000 a year - for full time employment . . . that WAS IT. Don't tell me that's a lack of work ethic - that's a lack of adequate income regardless of my work ethic.

People apply for support from the state when they're just temporarily out of work - such as in the recent recession where countless large businesses folded and ditched thousands of employees out of job security. Young couples not ready yet to have a family - widowed parents who lost a spouse and weren't 'single' because they just didn't want to be married - these types of people were sluffed off, suddenly without employment and health coverage not of their own doing - and they still needed support. So what's your argument - what? Is the wife in a marriage because she's laid off of work and suddenly without her healthcare suppose to stop taking her monthly pill and risk pregnancy at the *worst* time for it? Are you actually suggesting that a married couple is suppose to stop wanting to have sex because they were laid off of work?

Quit being ridiculous with your 'welfare baby queen' mantra. Most people on welfare are on it temporarily - only because they really NEED it . . . not because they're lazy.

You're trying to muddy the waters. These pills can be used for the legitimate treatment of disease. For those purposes they of course ought to be covered. But I repeat...pregnancy is not a disease that requires treatment or prevention, and thus the cost of pills that prevent pregnancy are elective and ought not be covered.

Pregnancy is a condition - and it does require treatment and it does require prevention if having a child is not ideal at the moment.

Seems like common sense to me. Quit pretending it's not serious and important to ensure proper nutrition, health and overall care of a mother and her unborn.
 
Are you under the impression storks bring babies?

No, but I'm also not under the impression that I live in fairytale land where bad things don't happen and everyone is perfect all the time.
 
Adam Smith remarked that "the most decisive mark of the prosperity of any country is the increase of the number of its inhabitants."

Livi-Bacci observed, "All things being equal, population increase leads to increased per capita production."

Mark Steyn notes in America Alone, "There is no precedent in human history for economic growth on declining human capital."

Simon Smith Kuznets won the Nobel Prize in economics for his theory of "tested knowledge." As Kuznets explained: "More population means more creators and producers, both of goods along established production patterns and of new knowledge and inventions."


So much for the theory that population control is good for society.
 
No, but I'm also not under the impression that I live in fairytale land where bad things don't happen and everyone is perfect all the time.

Being "perfect" has nothing to do with conception, SAM.

Sexual intercourse does.

People managed to avoid tripping without falling dick first into a woman's vagina and vice versa through pretty much all of history.
 
Voluntarily doing something that you can't afford is always bad behavior.

The fact that there is a fair likelihood a human life can result of your voluntarily bad behavior, one which you clearly can't afford to take care of, only increases how bad of a decision it actually is.

More "women who have sex and don't want to procreate are just bad people" rhetoric. What if this woman in poverty is married? Many are, these days.

Humans are social creatures who rely heavily on their relationships for their mental well-being. Sex is part of a normal, healthy life. Sex with romantic partners is practically mandatory for the health of the relationship. Sex is good for you.

Telling people that they should destroy their relationships for the terrible sin of being poor (and the even worse sin of being female and disinterested in breeding) is pretty back-asswards.

Also, at some point, we're going to have to grow up and realize we don't live in Neverland, and pretending that we do is why we have so many problems in the first place.
 
Being "perfect" has nothing to do with conception, SAM.

Sexual intercourse does.

People managed to avoid tripping without falling dick first into a woman's vagina and vice versa through pretty much all of history.

Actually, they didn't. You have a shallow understanding of history. People screwed just as often -- if not more so. They just didn't live long enough to reproduce often.

Women died in their youths from child birth. Children died in their youths from disease. Men died in their youths from violence.

With today's longevity, we could drown the planet in a decade.
 
Oh sure - and then kids can die from polio and other things. WIC, etc - does more than just cover birth control and some food.

You might find this shocking but people did survive before the nanny state.
 
Actually, they didn't. You have a shallow understanding of history. People screwed just as often -- if not more so. They just didn't live long enough to reproduce often.

Women died in their youths from child birth. Children died in their youths from disease. Men died in their youths from violence.

With today's longevity, we could drown the planet in a decade.

You're obviously too young to know any better but it is only within the last few decades these things have become common place. Not only did people manage to make it out of high school before getting pregnant but they even managed to make it into long lasting marriages and financial security before doing so. For most of this country's history being a "single parent" meant your spouse passed away. Despite the nanny state being a relatively new idea, these people still managed to work, provide for their families, and raise them.

For the life of me I cannot figure out what would make you think people reproduce more often today than they did throughout history.
 
You might find this shocking but people did survive before the nanny state.

Ah yeah - good old mortality rates. . . where a family would bring 7 children into the world and only 2 would make it to adulthood. . . and young girls would be turned into nunneries when their dad's died.

Yep - let's just digress as a society.

If all the kids die before the age of 10 then we don't have to support them at all!

Good plan! :roll:

Or - why not just help said individuals to prevent pregnancy from the beginning!
 
You're obviously too young to know any better but it is only within the last few decades these things have become common place. Not only did people manage to make it out of high school before getting pregnant but they even managed to make it into long lasting marriages and financial security before doing so. For most of this country's history being a "single parent" meant your spouse passed away. Despite the nanny state being a relatively new idea, these people still managed to work, provide for their families, and raise them.

For the life of me I cannot figure out what would make you think people reproduce more often today than they did throughout history.

You're obviously too uneducated to know better, but women were being married off much younger and teen pregnancy wasn't seen as a bad thing as long as the man who helped you get there was willing to marry you. No particular importance was placed on women's education.

Pregnancy rates were actually higher, but so were miscarriage and infant mortality rates, and statistics were not as widely disseminated as they are today. Also, women who bore "bastard" children were hidden away by their families and sometimes even moved, which made them less publicly visible. The child was likely to be given up for adoption, or raised as a child of the grandmother. Single mothers often moved back home or quickly re-married.

Marriages did tend to last, that is true -- but they were much more likely to be dead marriages, or even abuse marriages. The ease of divorce reduced that. I'd much rather have high divorce rates than high abuse rates, wouldn't you?

And finally, I never said people reproduced more now. I just said comparing rates of reproduction to distant history is ridiculous, because people died so young that they never had the chance to have more than a couple healthy children.
 
Last edited:
The reason why we have welfare is because people in this country decided it was immoral and unethical to force people to forever live in squallor due to no fault of their OWN actions. In this day and age the actions of a single smarmy businessman can end and entire family's life - unacceptable . . . but our advance and changes in our economy, business world and government have made it so.

We turned a leaf - and no matter how much some people would just love to digress - we won't.
 
What was the average life expectancy for a woman in the 1950's?

now. I just said comparing rates of reproduction to distant history is ridiculous, because people died so young that they never had the chance to have more than a couple healthy children.
 
What was the average life expectancy for a woman in the 1950's?

I wasn't talking about the 1950's. That's not distant history, is it.

And if you think women of the 50's didn't use contraception and abortion, you're deluded.

But to answer your question, it was about 70 for women. Fertility rate was around 4 live births per woman. Today, it's about 80, with a fertility rate of just over 2.
 
Some people who are on welfare are at fault. Nonetheless, I haven't seen anyone, on this thread, argue to end welfare altogether. Many oppose paying for other people's contraceptives, which is a separate issue.

The reason why we have welfare is because people in this country decided it was immoral and unethical to force people to forever live in squallor due to no fault of their OWN actions. In this day and age the actions of a single smarmy businessman can end and entire family's life - unacceptable . . . but our advance and changes in our economy, business world and government have made it so.

We turned a leaf - and no matter how much some people would just love to digress - we won't.
 
Back
Top Bottom