Inability to understand love

Goshin said:

Perhaps love can be broken down into brain chemicals, instincts, and social conditioning... but even if that is so, that does not make it any less real for he who loves.

I think we approach it from that basis.

Is love, as the objectivist claims, selfish? If you see it that way, then perhaps it is, to you. If you see it as selfless, you're more likely to act that way aren't you?

A good reason not to marry an Objectivist, methinks. :mrgreen:

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Oh I absolutely agree. One fundamental characteristic of any living thing is that it has its limitation and its foundations. In terms of humanity, the limitations are many and the foundations are matter and energy (or more if you are religious, but I am seeking common ground with anyone who may be reading this), any human emotional capacity has to be based on those foundational things because our make up provides mechanisms for everything we do, think, and feel.

So, any emotion is a wash of electrical impulses and chemical signals washing through the brain. So be it, however, I agree, the experience and the totality of love stands on its own at the same time .

Oh and btw, thank you for another wonderful and satisfying opportunity to vote "Rootebega". :mrgreen:



If only Rootebega were an option in the upcoming elections.... ay, que lastima!

Goshin said:

Oh and btw, thank you for another wonderful and satisfying opportunity to vote "Rootebega". :mrgreen:



If only Rootebega were an option in the upcoming elections.... ay, que lastima!

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You know I did it for you :devil:

Goshin said:

Perhaps love can be broken down into brain chemicals, instincts, and social conditioning... but even if that is so, that does not make it any less real for he who loves.

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No, it certainly does not.

For me, it's as real as any solid object though love has no tangible properties. Those I love, I do fiercely and wholeheartedly.

megaprogman said:

Its a reason to the objectivists or the sympathizers of objectivists who believe that any human emotion, including love, is inherently selfish. I simply do not understand why they could some to such a conclusion and I am looking for answers.

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Probably on the basis that we only express love to make ourselves feel good. I'm not sure how true that is, but there's something (perhaps a bit nihilist) to it.

ecofarm said:

Probably on the basis that we only express love to make ourselves feel good. I'm not sure how true that is, but there's something (perhaps a bit nihilist) to it.

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Sometimes expressing love can leave me feeling horrible. Hugging my child who is going through one of his episodes for example because at those times, its all I can do for him.

megaprogman said:

Sometimes expressing love can leave me feeling horrible. Hugging my child who is going through one of his episodes for example because at those times, its all I can do for him.

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But you know it's the right thing to do and, thus, it satisfies your needs as well.

ecofarm said:

But you know it's the right thing to do and, thus, it satisfies your needs as well.

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Then you don't know me very well. I don't do it because I believe its the right thing to do. I do it because he needs me and I am the only thing at those moments that keeps him safe. I don't sit there and go "gosh, I better do this or else I will feel bad about myself" I go "crap he might hurt himself!" and I don't really think much more until the episode is over and he has calmed down again.

Don't ever assume you know my motivations better than I do. I have spent my entire life analyzing myself (I analyze everything) and understanding my inputs, processes, and outputs very well.

megaprogman said:

Then you don't know me very well. I don't do it because I believe its the right thing to do. I do it because he needs me and I am the only thing at those moments that keeps him safe. I don't sit there and go "gosh, I better do this or else I will feel bad about myself" I go "crap he might hurt himself!" and I don't really think much more until the episode is over and he has calmed down again.

Don't ever assume you know my motivations better than I do. I have spent my entire life analyzing myself and understanding my inputs, processes, and outputs very well.

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Do you not think that doing so is the right thing to do (perhaps given a lack of options, as you mentioned)?

ecofarm said:

Do you not think that doing so is the right thing to do (given a lack of options)?

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I ultimately do see it as the right thing to do, but I don't make the attempt to not feel bad about myself or meet my needs, but it is done because the other person needs it. Those two things are entirely separate.

megaprogman said:

I ultimately do see it as the right thing to do,

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Well, then that's that. The argument that eludes you is this: we do what is right, we love, because we know (perhaps only somewhere deep down inside) that it's the right thing to do and that makes us feel good; it's like walking in the Spirit and the fruit speeds ones pace.

ecofarm said:

Well, then that's that. The argument that eludes you is this: we do what is right, we love, because we know (perhaps only somewhere deep down inside) that it's the right thing to do and that makes us feel good; it's like walking in the Spirit and the fruit speeds ones pace.

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No, I have just been through the same argument with other people and like them, so I short circuited it a bit to avoid being annoyed, the part you get wrong is the primary motivation. In this scenario, the primary is the need of the other person, not the desire to feel good for a job well down or the desire to avoid shame or guilt.

Its a fundamental misunderstand by this crowd of what actually motivates people.

megaprogman said:

Its a reason to the objectivists or the sympathizers of objectivists who believe that any human emotion, including love, is inherently selfish. I simply do not understand why they could some to such a conclusion and I am looking for answers.

When I first started on this forum, it was a quest to understand conservative thinking. I think I understand it pretty well now, so now I am trying to understand another group of people.

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I think it's a misuse or misunderstanding of the word selfish and that when you love someone, you do because they appeal to you.

megaprogman said:

No, I have just been through the same argument with other people and like them, so I short circuited it a bit to avoid being annoyed, the part you get wrong is the primary motivation. In this scenario, the primary is the need of the other person, not the desire to feel good for a job well down or the desire to avoid shame or guilt.

Its a fundamental misunderstand by this crowd of what actually motivates people.

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Whatever, dude. I was just trying to explain where the argument, which baffles you, is coming from. You claimed you had no clue what was going on, and I tried to help. I had no intention of getting into anything personal.

Harry Guerrilla said:

I think it's a misuse or misunderstanding of the word selfish and that when you love someone, you do because they appeal to you.

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That's another angle, good point.

ecofarm said:

Whatever, dude. I was just trying to explain where the argument, which baffles you, is coming from. You claimed you had no clue what was going on, and I tried to help. I had no intention of getting into anything personal.

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Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions.

I appreciate your efforts.

ecofarm said:

That's another angle, good point.

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I'll just say in the most clinical way that, love is an evolutionary survival mechanism.
It benefits the whole human species, that we love each other.

Harry Guerrilla said:

I'll just say in the most clinical way that, love is an evolutionary survival mechanism.
It benefits the whole human species, that we love each other.

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Whatever our personal vision of it may be, it's important to at least understand where others are coming from, even if we disagree for a variety of reasons.

ecofarm said:

Whatever our personal vision of it may be, it's important to at least understand where others are coming from, even if we disagree for a variety of reasons.

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I understand it, but basically the argument is a restatement of what baffles me. Why do people think that the primary motivator would be some type of internal reward or avoidance of an internal punishment, instead of using occams razor here and not going around the world to not see what is right in front of them. someone needed help and that in and of itself is the need, which is external, not internal. It makes no sense to me.

megaprogman said:

I understand it, but basically the argument is a restatement of what baffles me. Why do people think that the primary motivator would be some type of internal reward or avoidance of an internal punishment, instead of using occams razor here and not going around the world to not see what is right in front of them. someone needed help and that in and of itself is the need, which is external, not internal. It makes no sense to me.

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Well, that depends on your creation belief.
If you're particularly religious, you'd likely believe that love was given by god and is (imo) more likely to be selfless.
If you're not really religious, it's more likely that you could believe that love, came about because it furthers the continuation of humanity, a long term benefit, but a benefit none the less.

Heah Mega Glad to see another Aspie on this site. I got you right away. For us (Aspies) our socialization "cricuitry" is not damaged its off. Those parts of the brain that allow others to read body langauge or understand social cues or evoke empathy is off (not operational). Many of us learn to sidetrack this and how to function in society because we had some type of help.
There are many who did not recieve this help and think that how they behave or react is "normal" and everyone should accept it. This characteristic along with our normal "policeman" mentality makes the unaware Aspie come off as socially ackward and distant some times even insenssitive.
Then you have the A Social personality who cannot feel any positive emotions for anyone except themselves and they view all other reactions in that light. They are usually abrupt, insensitive and hostile when their views are challenged.

The next step is the Sociopath who is incapable of feeling any emotion at all for anyone. They seem from a psychological point of view almost zombie like. the problem is that these people have learned very effectively how to fake it and a fair number of them are either sadists or serial killerss (Ted Bundy)

The last group are those in our society that grew up in a "repressed" environment with regards to things like emotion. They accept this veiw of the world because it is their world and are extremely resistant to change and will become hostile if this view is challenged.
They are relatively easy to spot in society and tend to group together for support. I am not talking about people who were told crying is wrong, but those who were taught sometimes in severe ways that showing any type of emotion is wrong.

Am I close?

Most of these groups cannot be changed. Aspies are normallly the only ones who can be "taught" how to cope depending on the level of there disability. As you and I know there are as many types of Aspies as there are Aspies.

The others for the most part cannot or will not accept change because they honest believe their world is the normal one.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Well, that depends on your creation belief.
If you're particularly religious, you'd likely believe that love was given by god and is (imo) more likely to be selfless.
If you're not really religious, it's more likely that you could believe that love, came about because it furthers the continuation of humanity, a long term benefit, but a benefit none the less.

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I kinda mix them. I see the sociological motivation, but I also believe in a sort of collective sub/conscious that guides us. This collective will could be described as the sociological motivation, but I think it goes a little deeper than that and is more about personal revelation.

How selfless it is? Not so sure.

wolfman24 said:

Most of these groups cannot be changed. Aspies are normallly the only ones who can be "taught" how to cope depending on the level of there disability. As you and I know there are as many types of Aspies as there are Aspies.

The others for the most part cannot or will not accept change because they honest believe their world is the normal one.

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Actually, this thought did cross my mind but I did not want to claim it because how in the world do you verify this sort of thing? I sometimes wonder if I have a deeper understanding of human interaction because I spent 30 years studying it precisely because I have had to work so hard to interact with each other. I have had to get to the point where I can categorize human interaction into a model in order to understand it and know how to get people to do what I needed them to do or solicit whatever reaction I needed from them. Sometimes I screw up and do something perceived as odd, but that is pretty rare these days. I am perceived in RL as an all around awesome person by a variety of personalities. Doing so gives me some insight into the human psyche as a necessity.

But again, how can I verify such a claim to others, so I avoided this piece of the discussion.

Well met

ecofarm said:

I kinda mix them. I see the sociological motivation, but I also believe in a sort of collective sub/conscious that guides us. This collective will could be described as the sociological motivation, but I think it goes a little deeper than that and is more about personal revelation.

How selfless it is? Not so sure.

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Well, I don't believe that humans are totally individuals.
We are also a collective, in a sense.

There is some balance between the two.
Love developed, I believe, because it is both individually and socially beneficial.
Whether or not, we get an instant chemical brain wash from loving activities.

megaprogman said:

Actually, this thought did cross my mind but I did not want to claim it because how in the world do you verify this sort of thing? I sometimes wonder if I have a deeper understanding of human interaction because I spent 30 years studying it precisely because I have had to work so hard to interact with each other. I have had to get to the point where I can categorize human interaction into a model in order to understand it and know how to get people to do what I needed them to do or solicit whatever reaction I needed from them. Doing so gives me some insight into the human psyche as a necessity.

But again, how can I verify such a claim to others, so I avoided this piece of the discussion.

Well met

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Dr. Asperger once said "The delusional idea of a delusion is to try and explain it to the delusional."

Does this make sense?

They are there. They think there world is the right one. They will defend that belief as many of us would. Its just there way is not "socially acceptable". The trick is to just quietly ignore them and move on. For people like us this is a very hard thing to do. When I meet someone like that on thiis or any other site I leave myself a message so I don't get caught up. Not perfect but its better than nothing. When someone gets to the obnoxious point I put them on ignore.