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Who won the VP Debate?

Who won?

  • Total voters
    109
TurtleDude said:
His campaign ad that I have started a thread about-claiming someone making 50K a year pays a higher effective income tax than Romney-massive lie

claiming the rich-the top one percent who pay 40% of the income tax and all the DEATH TAX-don't pay their fair share

claiming he "killed Bin Laden"

claiming his stimulus saved the country

tell me why you support Obama-your avatar is rather puzzling BTW
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Don't forget the Benghazi attacks. That's the ringer in my opinion.
 
Krystov said:
Cite your sources please. Not only so I can see the validity of this, but so I can read up on it myself.


Even if Romney is lying though, Obama has been lying for longer and about a lot more and the more important issues. The bottom line is Obama has done more harm to the country than he has helped and the statistics on the BLS prove it.
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http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/statements/byruling/false/ This is the source used for this particular post but I can give others if needed
 
jonny5 said:
See, i think they would see him laughing. And ignored his words.
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Oh don't get me wrong, everyone sees the laughing and how disrespectful it was. What I'm saying is when he was talking he was more commanding over Ryan, even though he was spewing falsehoods.
 
WcBeasley said:
Document your evidence. Stateing he has simply doesn't make it so.
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His primary 2008 campaign vow and issue was that he would not sign a renewal of the Bush tax cuts. He gave no qualifiers. Instead, he endorsed renewing them. Now in 2012, that is his identical campaign issue and promise. He 100% lied in his first campaign of his primary issue, doing the opposite. Why should anyone believe him this time?

He also promised over 100 times to close Gitmo. He didn't. Now in 2012 he vows the same.
 
WcBeasley said:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/statements/byruling/false/ This is the source used for this particular post but I can give others if needed
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Says President Obama has "doubled" the deficit.

This actually is true. Go on the Treasury website and look at the debt spending for each year. In his first year he spent nearly 2 trillion dollars over budget.

Government - Historical Debt Outstanding - Annual 2000 - 2010

That shows the debts for each year. The deficit is the amount added to the debt each year. Get the differences in each year from 2005 to 2008 and Bush's second term average deficit is 675 billion dollars.

This chart only shows up to 2010, but Obama has put an additional 5.6 trillion on to what he inherited from Bush. That averaged over 4 years is 1.4 trillion a year. That's more than double Bush's average.

They're trying to split hairs and include the publicly held debt when the deficit regards how much federal spending the government does over budget; what's added to the national debt. Even if Obama did decrease the deficit, as they claim, he still didn't bring it to the level he promised.


The thing about 20 million losing healthcare was not a lie, but the most negative extreme of the estimates the CBO made. But the purpose of Obamacare was to get more people insurance, not cause them to lose any. The CBO used 4 alternative estimates and only one of them predicted a gain, and only of 3 million people.
"It’s also important to remember the big picture. CBO projects that, overall, the number of uninsured Americans will drop by 29 million to 31 million due to the law."

"Romney’s figure is close to one from the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center, which found that 46 percent of tax filers pay no income tax". So he was off by 2 or 3 percent. That's not that huge a difference from the reality. Painting this as a lie doesn't change the fact that nearly 47 percent don't pay taxes. His figures are correct, but the support claim he made is not. This only says that Romney has more support from the 47 percent than he stated, but that doesn't mean that Obama doesn't hold the majority of that 47 percent.

This website appears to be biased in favor of Obama. They are slicing hairs in their analyses and if you look at each of the candidate's profiles, Obama only has a lead by the volume of statements analyzed. Take an average of each truth level out to bring him down to Romney's level and you should see Romney's truth percentages exceed Obama's.
 
jonny5 said:
If those people who were polled want to come here and offer their opinion, they are welcome too. Beyond that, polls have no relevance. The topic is who the members of this forum think won.
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Don't be ridiculous, of course scientific polls have relevance. They provide a snapshot of what people are thinking at a given point, within a margin of error ... and within the margin of error, two out of two polls indicate that more people thought Biden won the debate than those who thought Ryan won.

What is irrelevant is your opinion of who won, which has a margin of error of 99.9.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Don't be ridiculous, of course scientific polls have relevance. They provide a snapshot of what people are thinking at a given point, within a margin of error ... and within the margin of error, two out of two polls indicate that more people thought Biden won the debate than those who thought Ryan won.

What is irrelevant is your opinion of who won, which has a margin of error of 99.9.
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What makes a poll scientific in your opinion?

A majority of the media is liberally bias, which would suggest that most of the polls we see on television would favor Biden. This is not the case. Most of the polls that have been referenced put Ryan ahead of Biden. Not only that, every news station has been criticizing Biden for his bad behavior. That certainly affects those polls, scientific or no.
 
Krystov said:
What makes a poll scientific in your opinion?

A majority of the media is liberally bias, which would suggest that most of the polls we see on television would favor Biden. This is not the case. Most of the polls that have been referenced put Ryan ahead of Biden. Not only that, every news station has been criticizing Biden for his bad behavior. That certainly affects those polls, scientific or no.
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Most polls referenced are not scientific. Three were. 2 favored Biden and one was a statistical tie.

ELEMENTS OF SCIENTIFIC POLLING

Scientific polls have several major characteristics that distinguish them from nonscientific surveys. First and foremost, scientific polls use samples of respondents that mirror the larger population under study. In a large, diverse nation like the United States, interviewing all American adults in a survey is impractical and impossible owing to prohibitive costs, resource constraints, and time limits. Thus pollsters rely on adult samples, selected randomly, such that all individuals have an equal chance of being included in the sample. This random sampling process usually yields a sample that closely reflects the characteristics of the larger population—that is, the sample is representative of the larger population. Statistically samples are most likely to be representative when random sampling methods are used and sample size—that is, the number of completed surveys—approaches or exceeds one thousand, with larger sample sizes producing better results.

Polling Facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about Polling
 
nota bene said:
I saw just one child at the table, the one who, maybe two sentences into his opponent's statement, was "reacting"--shaking his head, smirking, rolling his eyes, and interrupting.

Up to everybody to decide for him or herself whether this was merely "acting," but what I saw in Ryan was a man who remained civil and sat still--did you watch Ryan's hands?

I saw somebody who just might be President of the United States one day and who certainly has the required gravitas for the Vice Presidency.
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Remaining civil and sitting still are not qualifications for president. The fact of the matter is that he allowed himself to be dominated by Biden's antics. He sat back and civilly accepted being dominated.
 
Who won the debate?

Ryan.

Biden was only there to put a tourniquet on the bleeding.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Don't be ridiculous, of course scientific polls have relevance. They provide a snapshot of what people are thinking at a given point, within a margin of error ... and within the margin of error, two out of two polls indicate that more people thought Biden won the debate than those who thought Ryan won.

What is irrelevant is your opinion of who won, which has a margin of error of 99.9.
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The dont have a relevence to this topic, which is what the members of this forum think. Are you basing your opinion what others think?
 
Tucker Case said:
Remaining civil and sitting still are not qualifications for president. The fact of the matter is that he allowed himself to be dominated by Biden's antics. He sat back and civilly accepted being dominated.
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Or, he showed that he can remain calm in the face of aggressive pressure, and still offer an argument. Which is what a President does. When Ahmidenijad gives his crazy speeches at the UN, our people dont laugh and interrupt him, then give a dominating aggressive speech. They listen calmly, and then get up and give a civil rebuttal with commitment. Obama does not act like Biden. Hugo Chavez acts like Biden.
 
Navy Pride said:
I will never understand how anyone can say Biden won........Ryan whipped the condescending Biden like a stepchild........Biden was totally unprofessional with his smiling and interrupting tactics.........
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Seems like the majority of the country disagree with you. Remember all those people who couldn't wait to see Ryan destroy Biden.....Ooops. Looks like they were dead wrong. Biden cleaned Ryan's clock and left him sitting there like a school boy caught with his pants down. Nice try trying to rehabilitate your VP pile of crap. Ryan just destroyed any chances he had of being a front running in 2016.
 
disneydude said:
Seems like the majority of the country disagree with you. Remember all those people who couldn't wait to see Ryan destroy Biden.....Ooops. Looks like they were dead wrong. Biden cleaned Ryan's clock and left him sitting there like a school boy caught with his pants down. Nice try trying to rehabilitate your VP pile of crap. Ryan just destroyed any chances he had of being a front running in 2016.
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Cleaned Ryan's clock?

Looked to me like Biden's spittle was flying everywhere.

Biden's antics were a contrived attempt to keep Ed Schultz happy.

My favorite was Biden interrupting with, "Buh,buh,buh,buh..."

Ryan won because he was the only debater there.
 
CedarBear said:
Cleaned Ryan's clock?

Looked to me like Biden's spittle was flying everywhere.

Biden's antics were a contrived attempt to keep Ed Schultz happy.

My favorite was Biden interrupting with, "Buh,buh,buh,buh..."

Ryan won because he was the only debater there.
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LOL.....you obviously have been listening to FauxNews.....most of the rest of the country saw Biden wipe the floor with Ryan.
 
disneydude said:
LOL.....you obviously have been listening to FauxNews.....most of the rest of the country saw Biden wipe the floor with Ryan.
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Nope...simply a logical conclusion from watching and listening...oh...and thinking.
 
disneydude said:
LOL.....you obviously have been listening to FauxNews.....most of the rest of the country saw Biden wipe the floor with Ryan.
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LOL ... you wish. Even the CNN poll had Ryan winning. Now Biden is a joke everywhere.

gary_varvel_new_gary_varvel_for_10122012.gif


As Napoleon said: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake".
 
disneydude said:
LOL.....you obviously have been listening to FauxNews.....most of the rest of the country saw Biden wipe the floor with Ryan.
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Or CNN rather than fox, as their poll indicated something FAR different than Biden "wiping the floor" with Ryan
 
CedarBear said:
Cleaned Ryan's clock?

Looked to me like Biden's spittle was flying everywhere.

Biden's antics were a contrived attempt to keep Ed Schultz happy.

My favorite was Biden interrupting with, "Buh,buh,buh,buh..."

Ryan won because he was the only debater there.
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Not to mention all the lies, exaggerations, and falsehoods that Biden was trying to make a case with. My favorite was his claiming there were no requests for additional security in Benghazi.
 
CedarBear said:
Nope...simply a logical conclusion from watching and listening...oh...and thinking.
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Last time I checked Fox was rated the most trusted news source. I imagine there's a reason for that.

News station aside you all should be looking up the facts for yourself, since ALL media is bias in some form or another.
 
Tucker Case said:
The important polls I saw were of the undecideds, who seemed to lean heavily toward Biden.
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I saw that too, including a Frank Luntz focus group.

What concerned me was their lack of knowledge about any issue.
 
CedarBear said:
What concerned me was their lack of knowledge about any issue.
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:lol: Isn't that the natural state of the "undecided" in an election? Think about it. These are the people who have yet to make a decision despite the fact that there is a ****LOAD of information already out there from which it should be easy to make a decision, even if that decision is to say "They are both terrible, I wash my hands of this idiocy." (Actually, people who choose that path are usually the most informed, IMO)

That's democracy for you, though: decided by the majority, and the majority are idiots.
 
Tucker Case said:
The important polls I saw were of the undecideds, who seemed to lean heavily toward Biden.
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A couple of issues here tucker.

First, which are "important" and which indicates a "win" are two separate things arguably. Debates aren't watched only by undecideds, nor does a debate only effect undecideds. When you have a multitude of polls with varying results regarding who won or not I think you're hard pressed to say either one "Wiped the floor" with the other.

Not to mention, if one wishes to use such over the top rhetoric to describe what Biden did to Ryan then I would like to know what their equivalent would be for the Romney - Obama debate? This is similar to my issue with people declaring 2008 a landslide victory. When you begin to make over the top, hyperbolic proclamations to describe a situation that doesn't warrant it you essentially falsely lower the bar for such praise.

Second, I was pointing out the error in the pathetic hyper partisan attack attempted by Disney in suggesting that the reason one would think that Biden didn't "wipe the floor" with Ryan was because you'd be watching "Faux News" and that "most of the rest of the country" agreed with him. I pointed out that such an accusation is not just idiotic, but ignorant of reality, since entities other than Fox News....such as CNN....clearly gave an indication opposite of what Disney is saying.

Third, by looking at JUST the independents poll and actually examining the numbers there one would be very, very hard pressed to say that Biden "Wiped the floor" with Ryan. Wiping the floor gives the impression of a clear cut defeat that leaves the challenger weakened as the victor stands over top. This is simply not the case with regards to the VP debate based on the poll you're siting as a reference to Biden winning. I’ll quote a post I made concerning this, and comparing it to the Obama/Romney numbers from the same type of poll, to show you the numbers (editing a bunch of the post away, click the link if you want to read it in depth):

Zyphlin said:
Biden was +19 over Ryan. Romney was 5 points higher...+24 over Obama by the same source

Both Biden and Ryan managed to increase opinion of them in over 33% of those in the poll. Biden at 42%, four points higher than Ryan at 38%.

Contrast this with the Romney and Obama debate and it's a striking difference. Obama didn't even garner an improvement in opinion from 25% of those watching. He increased his standing with 13% of people compared to 56% by Romney....a 43 point difference.

Now, on the flip side...Biden managed the same negatives as Obama (17%) where as Ryan doubled the negatives that Romney had (22% compared to 11%).

Another interesting stat from these two polls is to see how those uncommitted people changed if they had to vote today....

After the VP debate, Obama increased by 9% in terms of those in the sample that would vote for him. Romney gained a 5% increase. After the Presidential debate, Obama experienced only a 2% increase, and Romney had an increase of 12%.

So looking at the three things that were measured after both debates based on this particular CBS polling of unaligned voters...

Who Won: VP Biden by 19 - - - Pres Romney by 24
Opinion Increase: VP 42% Biden, 38% Ryan - - - Pres 13% Obama, 56% Romney
Opinion Decrease: VP 17% Biden, 22% Ryan - - - Pres 17% Obama, 11% Romney
New Voters: VP 9% Obama, 5% Romney - - - Pres 2% Obama, 12% Romney

While Obama is the person on the ticket that Republicans have attempted to paint as the "ideologue" of their pairing, Ryan has been the person Democrats have largely been pushing as the "extremist" and "ideologue" on the Republican ticket. However, after the debate Ryan saw a 10% decrease in the amount of people who believed he was "Too conservative" for them....from 48% to 38%. That's a big swing and is a positive sign for the Republicans as it hampers the Democratic message against Ryan.

On the contrary, [Ryan] increased [in peoples opinion in their ability to be President] by 4%, hitting just under half with 49%.
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Biden won the debate. However, Ryan increased opinion regarding him by almost 40%. He increased peoples opinion of his ability to be President by 4%. He garnered 5% new voters to Romney, more than half of what Biden himself managed in that particular debate. You don’t get the “floor wiped” with you and increase the opinion of 38% of undecided viewing the instance. A four percent advantage over your opponent in terms of gaining new voters is not “wiping the floor” with them.

My issue is in no way with the suggestion that Biden won the debate. One can clearly make the argument, easily in some cases depending on how one would like to term the method of judging a “Win”. My issue was with:

1. Claiming Biden "cleaned Ryan's clock and left him sitting there like a school boy caught with his pants down" when multiple polls show it even, if not a Ryan victory, and even the one poll that shows a Biden victory still shows a strong and positive performance by Ryan
2. Suggesting that the reason one would think Biden didn’t win was simply because the person watches “Faux News” and that “most of the rest of the country” felt Biden “wiped the floor” with Ryan.
 
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disneydude said:
Seems like the majority of the country disagree with you. Remember all those people who couldn't wait to see Ryan destroy Biden.....Ooops. Looks like they were dead wrong. Biden cleaned Ryan's clock and left him sitting there like a school boy caught with his pants down. Nice try trying to rehabilitate your VP pile of crap. Ryan just destroyed any chances he had of being a front running in 2016.
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204-118 in favor of RYan...How do you tap dance out of that one DD?
 
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