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End of the financial crisis?

When would the financial crisis end?

  • In a few years

    Votes: 8 24.2%

  • 21 December, 2012

    Votes: 5 15.2%

  • Up to 5 years

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • Up to 10 years

    Votes: 7 21.2%

  • When we blow ourselves to kingdom come

    Votes: 1 3.0%

  • Not in our lifetime

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • Somewhere over the rainbow

    Votes: 4 12.1%
  • Total voters
    33
Home loans just protect bank equity and the bankers holding the paper. Efforts to repair our economy must create new areas of employment, labor, and local endeavors. The last two administrations have just put cash on the bankers and the wealthy while mouthing platitudes about them being job creators. Bullcrap! Redistribution of the wealth to the top 1%. The top 1% re-invest the Nations patrimony overseas where profits are easier to generate because of low labor rates. That would be the Bain Capital modus operandi and they are not alone because it has become standard operating procedure. Nothing that is designed to protect the interests of the status quo is going to help us. Suggestion: fix our real problems. Global Warming. Local generation of energy. End the Centralized Distribution of Energy Network and it large and multiplying losses and build local jobs and economies while mitigating Global Warming before it mitigates us.
 
Smeagol said:
I was speaking not so much of NAFTA but the general job killer of businesses exporting any job possible from manufacturing to customer service overseas including the Caribbean, Eastern Europe, the Pacific Rim and Asia.
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And the primary cause of that was NAFTA.
 
OnWisconsin said:
And the primary cause of that was NAFTA.
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Do you even know what NAFTA is? NAFTA is a free trade zone between US, Canada and Mexico. How is Caribbean, Eastern Europe, the Pacific Rim and Asia going to be affected by such treaty?

Japan got massive tariffs, you want to swap place with them? Their export industry is in massive trouble right now, and their debt level is out of control. In fact their exports since 1992 has only increased by 50%, in America exports has increased by 80% adjusting for population increase and inflation. A lot of the industry that died in America, died due to inefficiency and not due to low wages in competitive countries. Cars who damaged the american car industry after 1994 was produced in Japan and Europe, not in China.

If US artificially kept those companies alive, how expensive would American cars be?
 
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Canell said:
Now, we entered the 5-th year of the financial crisis, if not more. Imho, no light in tunnel so far.

So, how long would it take?
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It depends on who you are and what your wealth and assets are in.

If your wealth is in the stock market and you kept your money in, you're doing pretty well.

If your wealth is in your house then chances are you won't do well at all since the value of your home pre-crisis was inflated by easy access to credit and we won't reach a comparative level for demands of home prices like that for many years to come.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Ya, but so what.
Government debt isn't the same as household debt and while it doesn't need to get out of control, we can inflate some of it away.
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Really. Do tell me the difference. Inflation, ie devalueing your money is theft.
 
Camlon said:
Do you even know what NAFTA is? NAFTA is a free trade zone between US, Canada and Mexico. How is Caribbean, Eastern Europe, the Pacific Rim and Asia going to be affected by such treaty?

Japan got massive tariffs, you want to swap place with them? Their export industry is in massive trouble right now, and their debt level is out of control. In fact their exports since 1992 has only increased by 50%, in America exports has increased by 80% adjusting for population increase and inflation. A lot of the industry that died in America, died due to inefficiency and not due to low wages in competitive countries. Cars who damaged the american car industry after 1994 was produced in Japan and Europe, not in China.

If US artificially kept those companies alive, how expensive would American cars be?
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Haha if you wanna just generalize then yeah that is what its about. However like many pieces of legislation, once one is passed it opens the door for many others. Nafta is used because it was the largest of its kind, however, there are other free trade agreements we have made since then that are virtually identical to nafta and do essentially the same damage as nafta does.


Companies that shipped jobs overseas did so because it was cheaper. Thats it. Cost of wages and cost of insurance for the employees. Everyone wants to stay so competitive with every other country, yet fail to realize that by doing so we are going to pay our employees dirt wages with no benefits. Race to the bottom...
 
OnWisconsin said:
Haha if you wanna just generalize then yeah that is what its about. However like many pieces of legislation, once one is passed it opens the door for many others. Nafta is used because it was the largest of its kind, however, there are other free trade agreements we have made since then that are virtually identical to nafta and do essentially the same damage as nafta does.
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Japan with a lot of tariffs and subsidies are not doing well either. Companies in Japan has become very focused on exporting to their own country and is failing to innovate and compete abroad.


Companies that shipped jobs overseas did so because it was cheaper. Thats it. Cost of wages and cost of insurance for the employees. Everyone wants to stay so competitive with every other country, yet fail to realize that by doing so we are going to pay our employees dirt wages with no benefits. Race to the bottom...
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So why aren't all companies leaving to India? They got dirt poor wages. Their average monthly wage is 60 USD per month. That is way below China who has an average salary of about 300 USD per month. US is about 3400 USD per month. Still a lot of manufacturing companies prefer China in front of India.

That is because there are other factors that are more important than wage. Wages are not 100% of your costs. As shown US has seen exports grow faster than Japan, even when adjusting for factors like population increase and inflation. Reality is, most of the companies who died were horribly inefficient. There is no such thing as 40 USD per hour manufacturing jobs anymore. Even in America people are willing to work for 15 USD per hour doing a manufacturing job.

If we actually did prevent US from any competition, then unions would probably push manufacturing wages up to 40 USD per hour or even more. First off it would destroy American exports, and create a deficit because of the oil dependence, but it would also lead to much higher costs for the American consumers. How is that better?
 
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Camlon said:
Japan with a lot of tariffs and subsidies are not doing well either. Companies in Japan has become very focused on exporting to their own country and is failing to innovate and compete abroad.



So why aren't all companies leaving to India? They got dirt poor wages. Their average monthly wage is 60 USD per month. That is way below China who has an average salary of about 300 USD per month. US is about 3400 USD per month. Still a lot of manufacturing companies prefer China in front of India.

That is because there are other factors that are more important than wage. Wages are not 100% of your costs. As shown US has seen exports grow faster than Japan, even when adjusting for factors like population increase and inflation. Reality is, most of the companies who died were horribly inefficient. There is no such thing as 40 USD per hour manufacturing jobs anymore. Even in America people are willing to work for 15 USD per hour doing a manufacturing job.

If we actually did prevent US from any competition, then unions would probably push manufacturing wages up to 40 USD per hour or even more. First off it would destroy American exports, and create a deficit because of the oil dependence, but it would also lead to much higher costs for the American consumers. How is that better?
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Because India is a **** hole. The infrastructure is virtually non-existent. China has an excellent setup to invite business in.

If people made 40/hr there would be more money in peoples pockets and they would have more money to spend on consumer products, therefor stimulating the economy. Works a lot better then having a bunch of people with 5/hr jobs who cant afford to to anything but eat.
 
OnWisconsin said:
Because India is a **** hole. The infrastructure is virtually non-existent. China has an excellent setup to invite business in.
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There are problems investing in China too. The biggest concern is the government who will do everything in their power to help domestic companies. If it will benefit China, they will probably nationalize your business. Another problem is the corruption, plagarization and to deal with the bureaucracy. Due to problems like those, many companies choose to invest in countries like Brazil instead.

If people made 40/hr there would be more money in peoples pockets and they would have more money to spend on consumer products, therefor stimulating the economy. Works a lot better then having a bunch of people with 5/hr jobs who cant afford to to anything but eat.
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Nope, it doesn't work that way. Higher wages in one profession without an equivilant reduction in profit or increase in efficiency leads to more expensive goods.

If we decide to ban car imports from other countries and car companies increase their wage to $50 per hour, then I can assure you cars will become much more expensive. if everyone earn $5 per hour, then everything would be much cheaper. Think about going to a lawyer. Would they charge $150 per hour if they earn $5 per hour? What is causing problems in America is that everyone wants a little bit more of the pie, they find ways to push their wage up, and they are transfering the cost on everyone else.
 
Guy Incognito said:
If you think about this as a short- of medium-term crisis you are thinking about it all wrong. This is the decline and fall of the American Empire.
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that is one outcome, certainly.
 
Guy Incognito said:
If you think about this as a short- of medium-term crisis you are thinking about it all wrong. This is the decline and fall of the American Empire.
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Everyone is having similar problems, so not sure how you can draw that conclusion. If it was just us? Yeah maybe. But since great depression didn't do it, not sure why people would think this one will.
 
Camlon said:
There are problems investing in China too. The biggest concern is the government who will do everything in their power to help domestic companies. If it will benefit China, they will probably nationalize your business. Another problem is the corruption, plagarization and to deal with the bureaucracy. Due to problems like those, many companies choose to invest in countries like Brazil instead.


Nope, it doesn't work that way. Higher wages in one profession without an equivilant reduction in profit or increase in efficiency leads to more expensive goods.

If we decide to ban car imports from other countries and car companies increase their wage to $50 per hour, then I can assure you cars will become much more expensive. if everyone earn $5 per hour, then everything would be much cheaper. Think about going to a lawyer. Would they charge $150 per hour if they earn $5 per hour? What is causing problems in America is that everyone wants a little bit more of the pie, they find ways to push their wage up, and they are transfering the cost on everyone else.
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Driving everything up is what has improved our standard of living. We can look to many other countries who have not pushed up, and what they look like. They all are classified as "developing" nations.
 
Voted for 10 years. the great depression lasted for about 18 years... till WW2 ended.
 
Corporate Capitalism is always in a state of crisis

All fascist tyrannical totalitarian instruments of enslavement are unstable and immoral

The so called "crisis" that you refer to is the fascist crushing of workers rights, community institutions, democratic processes, the Constittution, bill of rights etc.,

Fascists love the crisis state - they do their best killing and theft then!

isnt that right cpwill?
 
Aberration said:
Driving everything up is what has improved our standard of living. We can look to many other countries who have not pushed up, and what they look like. They all are classified as "developing" nations.
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Greece has seen their wage increase by 47.7% in the period 2000 - 2009. Germany has seen its wages increase by 14.3% in the same period. Which country is doing better?

You don't get higher wages by pushing them up artifically high, you get higher wages by making your economy more efficient so costs can go down or employers need to increase wages to keep up the demand.
 
Camlon said:
You don't get higher wages by pushing them up artifically high, you get higher wages by making your economy more efficient so costs can go down or employers need to increase wages to keep up the demand.
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Don't forget that every 4-th Greek works for the state. :)
 
Camlon said:
Greece has seen their wage increase by 47.7% in the period 2000 - 2009. Germany has seen its wages increase by 14.3% in the same period. Which country is doing better?

You don't get higher wages by pushing them up artifically high, you get higher wages by making your economy more efficient so costs can go down or employers need to increase wages to keep up the demand.
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There are always exceptions. You can't take anyone's words as absolute in such context. As you pointed out, artificially high.
 
Aberration said:
There are always exceptions. You can't take anyone's words as absolute in such context. As you pointed out, artificially high.
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Actually in fact you can do both. You can choose to do like Japan and decrease wages, and it still results in net higher wages. Or you can do like other countries and increase wages. It has no relevance if you are not in a currency union, because the currency will eventually set itself at an appropriate level.

Hence, trying to increase wages of one profession do not lead to overall higher wages, but leads to everyone else who are not in the profession losing.
 
Canell said:
Hm, I can see a pattern here:

financial crisis in America (1929) -> several million unemployed and unhappy in Germany -> Comrade Hitler comes to power -> WW2

financial crisis in America (2008) -> hoards of unemployed in Europe -> ..............................
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Oh my, I forgot the "great panic of 1906" and the FED springing out of it. The FED, established in 1913... and next year we get... WW1. Interesting, huh?
 
Canell said:
Oh my, I forgot the "great panic of 1906" and the FED springing out of it. The FED, established in 1913... and next year we get... WW1. Interesting, huh?
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Sadly, the FED REV didn't have to do anything with the assasination of the archduke in Serbia which was the premise for war.

However, there is a connection between the federal reserve and ww2
 
Canell said:
Oh my, I forgot the "great panic of 1906" and the FED springing out of it. The FED, established in 1913... and next year we get... WW1. Interesting, huh?
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc :p


The government is what is prohibiting the economy from improving. It's not corporations. The government is supposed to prevent corporations from causing crony capitalism. The government has failed in its duty to keep corporate influence out of politics. Then there are a lot of stupid taxes on things that shouldn't be taxed (payroll...) because we have a major addiction to deficit spending.
 
cpwill said:
Crashes end when you find bottom and then start to rebuild. So far the things that have not hit (or been allowed to hit) bottom yet are:

1. The US Housing Market
2. The US Auto Industry
3. Southern Europe
4. China

I hope you don't intend on retiring any time soon.
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We bottomed out in 2010 and the Auto industry and housing market are improvng daily.
Looks like you and Romney were wrong and you won't get to buy up all our houses at pennies on the dollar so you can rent them back to us. What a shame.
 
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