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Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime? [W:636]

Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Muhammed a Crime?

  • Total voters
    186
iguanaman said:
Come down off the pedestal for a moment and tell me what will we do if one of these films or cartoons or whatever start coming out every month? Nothing?
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Nothing, absolutely nothing. Principle always comes before anything else.
 
mbig said:
This is the most common PC Mantra and Fallacy.
"We all have a few bad apples"...
and one f the biggest current events blunder/lie.

Islam has Exponentially More bad apples, so many more in fact, Inherent in their religion.
This was just an extra bad week, but people die EVERY DAY in the name of Islam. That is, not just crimes committed by Muslims, but Crimes committed in the Name of Islam against other religions or other sects.

Someone is counting, at least the ones we even know about:
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

There simply is nothng even close by any other religion. We do NOT all have a similar problem.
Not remotely.

Simply, A Christian Fundamentalist is a missionary, a Muslim Fundamentalist Kills him. (ie, the Philippines)
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1.4 million dead Iraqi Civilians and much of their land contaminated with Depleted Uranium

Are you aware that the cancerrate in Falluja has increased by 700% since the USA attacked it in 2003>? Why is that?

If you wish to link war crimes with religious domination, you dont need to go much further than the great Adolf Hitler - a devout Christian!

Was he Christian misionary chased by fundamentalist muslims?
 
Klown said:
1.4 million dead Iraqi Civilians and much of their land contaminated with Depleted Uranium
Are you aware that the cancerrate in Falluja has increased by 700% since the USA attacked it in 2003>? Why is that?
If you wish to link war crimes with religious domination, you dont need to go much further than the great Adolf Hitler - a devout Christian!
Was he Christian misionary chased by fundamentalist muslims?
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NOT Comparable, and you neglected to use the word "Fascist"!, though you did, similarly, degrade to Godwin's Law.
Nor, note the string topic, are YOU prohibited from YOUR daily anti-USA Hate speech.

Planet Chomsky.
 
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Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

DiAnna said:
Actually, not true. The State of California has many rules and regulations regarding the kind of speech, activities, etc., are allowed on state campuses. They've chosen to ban military recruitment of any kind, ban anti-semetic activities in the classroom and on campus, ban hate groups and hate speech in the classroom and on campus, etc.
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But, what does this say about the free speech movement of 1963?

And I don't see recruitment as free speech, but rather solicitation.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

nota bene said:
Maybe you should look at the location she has listed under her avatar.
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Are you speaking of my avatar?
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Gardener said:
The lack of intelligence applied to this matter really amazes me, sometimes.

I recall a few years ago when there was a bit of an issue over the "PissChrist" idiot Dada photographic "art" where a person actually received a government endowment for this "art" which consisted of nothing more than a crucifix in a jar of Urine. Unlike the issue today, which consisted of a lone individual doing something with no government support and precious little from anybody else, this was actually a product of a national endowment for the arts, the "artist", himself actually earning 15000 dollars for it. Was this offensive to Christians? Of course. Was it intentionally offensive? Beyond any shadow of a doubt. Did Christians go on a rampage? No -- the worst thing that happened was that the "art", itself was vandalized. Was there a hue and cry from any of these extreme hypocrites currently getting their panties in a little knot over this film? You and I both know there wasn't.

THis isn't about having consistant values , applying those values to an issue and forming a rational reaction. It is about placating violent people because of their intimidation and saying the politically correct thing to say because of this intimidation. How else do you explain these incredible double standards peoppel support viv a vis Islam and any other religion?
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You know what's interesting, G? Nobody seem interested at all in understanding why the guy who made the film did it, or why he holds those "vile" opinions he does. If he's truly a Coptic Christian, that might just be a clue.

Thousands of Coptic Christians took to the streets in Cairo to protest the burning of a church in Marinab and were headed towards Maspiro, where they were met with armoured personnel carrier, APCs, and hundreds of riot police and special forces. Army vehicles charged at the protesters and reports of at least 6 protesters being crushed under APCs, including one with a crushed skull, has emerged. In addition, witnesses have confirmed that military personnel were seen firing live ammunition into the protesters, while the Health Ministry confirmed that at least 20 protesters have undergone surgery for bullet wounds.[44] In total, an estimated 24 persons were killed most of whom are Copts, while numbers as high as 36 and 50 were reported, including unconfirmed reports of the death of three army soldiers. The number of wounded protesters was estimated to be 322, of whom about 250 were transported to hospitals.[45]
Inciting more unrest, messages were broadcasted on Egyptian national television urging "honest Egyptians" to take to the streets to "protect the military" from Christian protesters. As a result, hundreds of people, presumably Muslim extremists, were seen wielding clubs and machetes alongside riot police chanting "the people want to bring down the Christians", and later "Islamic, Islamic".[44]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts

Why is it, a large mob of people can storm an embassy, damage property and kill people over a film (supposedly) and some people will go out of their way to understand their motives, and suggest punishment for those who dare insult them, yet those same people are often completely content to just vilify the maker of the film (whose done nothing more than make a film) without so much as a passing curiosity as to his reasons?
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

X Factor said:
You know what's interesting, G? Nobody seem interested at all in understanding why the guy who made the film did it, or why he holds those "vile" opinions he does. If he's truly a Coptic Christian, that might just be a clue.



Persecution of Copts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why is it, a large mob of people can storm an embassy, damage property and kill people over a film and some people will go out of their way to understand their motives, and suggest punishment for those who dare insult them, yet those same people are often completely content to just vilify the maker of the film (whose done nothing more than make a film) without so much as a passing curiosity as to his reasons?
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Here's my take, the person who made the movie at least deserves to be heard out. I'm not as interested in his message though as his rights, if I were interested in his movie I would seek it out, but realistically it doesn't compel me to find it. What I find disturbing is that people are willing to trade his rights so easily to appease people of one faith, but other faiths are not only attacked, but at will.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Dragonfly said:
American citizens have been murdered. I think it's important to try to prevent that kind of thing.

I think it's important to look at the root causes and see what's behind them.

Yes - it's damn silly for anyone to get that worked up over a worse-than-pathetic piece of youtube trash.
To kill anyone over a religious difference of opinion is asinine, ignorant, and extremely wrong.

However, we also know that certain things will trigger those kinds of reactions.

We should not be purposefully trying to ignite the powder keg simply because we want to show others how stupidly animalistic some people can behave.

Again, I said I'm on the fence. Torn over this. I can see both sides.

When you do something well within your rights to do, but you also know damn fvcking well innocent people might/will get killed over it, what's your responsibility?
And at what point should legal charges be pressed?

It's well worth looking into I think.

It's one thing to put your own life at risk. It's quite another to put the lives of many others at risk.

Being held accountable for your actions. Don't we all support that ideology?

I am not saying the rioters and murderers over there are not accountable.

But how can you say the film makers don't bear some level of accountability as well?
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The only thing the film makers MIGHT be guilty of, is being twits. I didnt see thee film so I reserve judgement on that particular asspect. They are NOT guilty of anything other than that, I sure as hell dont need to examine anything about the filmakers accountabilities. There should be NO legal ramifications at all.

The people that should be held to account are the ones rioted and murdered people. There are NO reasons to murder someone not even involved with the film.

The responsibility for the deaths of the of the embassy staff lie squarely on those who killed them. I dont care if someone actually came up to them in person, and deficated on the quaran and then burned it. Quite frankly we need to get medieval with the sorry bastards.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Nothing, absolutely nothing. Principle always comes before anything else.
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Amen brother. Words and pictures dont kill people, people kill people.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Thrilla said:
yes, inciting violence is a crime.

however, being offensive is not incitement.
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Incitement is a very strict test. SCOTUS basically said, to paraphrase: Fighting words, criminal syndicalism, and other charged words are those that would compel the average person to violence. Just as yelling "fire" is a Time/Place/Manner issue, language inciting violence has a compelling public interest, if christians don't have a right to violence over attacks upon them, then neither do alternate religions, no matter how deeply held the faith. It's much like racist language, just calling someone the N-word does not pass the incitement test, but "I'll beat you down you ****ing N-word" sure as hell does, and frankly in either case the issuer deserves a beating.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Amen brother. Words and pictures dont kill people, people kill people.
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Absolutely, I would encourage people to read the things I had to learn in Comm. Law and Ethics, the court cases of the twentieth century basically. Those cases had the very heart of necessary and proper, the public interest, and where the scope of rigths are and those decisions made quite a bit of sense. The difference between justified violence and unjustified based on language is pretty much based on the normative human response to the issuance.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

ashurbanipal said:
I voted no, but I think a few reasonable caveats should apply. For instance, speech that's clearly intended to stir up violence either by muslims or against muslims, when it's also either misleading or downright false, ought to be illegal. Ditto speech that does so to any other group or entity.

In other words: "Mohammed was a big fat doodiehead," while obviously ignorant and absurd, shouldn't be illegal. But, "Mohammed was a big fat doodiehead, and all you Bible-believing Christians ought to get your guns and kill your Muslim neighbors because they're going to blow the planet up with a huge nuclear bomb vest" should be illegal.
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What part of free speach dont you understand? The free or the speach. The constitution is VERY clear on it.
 
mbig said:
NOT Comparable, and you neglected to use the word "Fascist"!, though you did, similarly, degrade to Godwin's Law.
Nor, note the string topic, are YOU prohibited from YOUR daily anti-USA Hate speech.

Planet Chomsky.
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You are of course correct in the emphasis contained in my posts

But as you may agree, the major problems on the planet stem from US militarism and imperialism dating back to the end of WW2.

If you look at the history of the USA, it was once a nation that was one of the most respected and admired nations.

Have you noticed that my emphasis is on US foreign policy and corporate corruption globally. I have worked in the USA and travelled through most its regions - I have no issues with American people generally - just as I dont have any issues with people from Chile or Italy.

Perhaps you are taking my comments personally?

Being Australian, I direct the same criticisms towards my own nation when it has commited identical crimes and engages in similar corrupt pratices on the world stage

My own feelings on what is happening in the USA is that many citizens are beginning to wake up to what their government is doing and who it is on behalf of.

You have a long road ahead to regain your freedom and great US constitution which has been trashed without the peoples permission
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Once you starting banning speech, then no speech is free, then we would have failed our Founding Fathers and Founding Principles.

 
LaMidRighter said:
Absolutely, I would encourage people to read the things I had to learn in Comm. Law and Ethics, the court cases of the twentieth century basically. Those cases had the very heart of necessary and proper, the public interest, and where the scope of rigths are and those decisions made quite a bit of sense. The difference between justified violence and unjustified based on language is pretty much based on the normative human response to the issuance.
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Excellent call LMR.....this is what I try to explain to people about the Freedom of Speech call-outs. Also such would entail being able to deal with the whatever the situation might be. For example the Not to Bright individual that may the film. Sure any of those into following that Religions tenets and beliefs have the Right to be offended. If they were into or around the knuckleheads space. Then they might not have the Right to deal with the individual. But they could at least try. Which then that is the other part of the Equation.

Being ABLE to deal with the individual or individuals in question.
 
Klown said:
You are of course correct in the emphasis contained in my posts
But as you may agree, the major problems on the planet stem from US militarism and imperialism dating back to the end of WW2.
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It was called the Cold War.
Alas, alot of people's rights got trampled on, but it did, and still does, protect the planet in general. NOT the place for a longer explanation.

klown said:
If you look at the history of the USA, it was once a nation that was one of the most respected and admired nations.
Have you noticed that my emphasis is on US foreign policy and corporate corruption globally. I have worked in the USA and travelled through most its regions - I have no issues with American people generally - just as I dont have any issues with people from Chile or Italy.
Being Australian, I direct the same criticisms towards my own nation when it has commited identical crimes and engages in similar corrupt pratices on the world stage
My own feelings on what is happening in the USA is that many citizens are beginning to wake up to what their government is doing and who it is on behalf of.
You have a long road ahead to regain your freedom and great US constitution which has been trashed without the peoples permission
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What I've noticed is that your posts are typical but out-of-control Leftism and you can't discuss any topic whatsoever without Gratuitously (and Off Topc) dragging in USA "Fascism", or overblown Iraq War numbers (most of which are Muslims killing other-sect Muslims btw, re-enforcing My point), etc.
Which has Nothing do with this string.. or others.
 
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Klown said:
Have you noticed that my emphasis is on US foreign policy
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What I have noticed is that you toss around extraordinarily stupid and childish buzz phrases without even an inkling of understanding as to what they mean.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Maybe not focused on one certain religion, but anything disparaging on any religion to be punishable.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

X Factor said:
You know what's interesting, G? Nobody seem interested at all in understanding why the guy who made the film did it, or why he holds those "vile" opinions he does. If he's truly a Coptic Christian, that might just be a clue.



Persecution of Copts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why is it, a large mob of people can storm an embassy, damage property and kill people over a film (supposedly) and some people will go out of their way to understand their motives, and suggest punishment for those who dare insult them, yet those same people are often completely content to just vilify the maker of the film (whose done nothing more than make a film) without so much as a passing curiosity as to his reasons?
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I have a couple of customers with whom I chat quite often, and they left Egypt for that very reason. They were persecuted by the Muslim majority quite ruthlessly.

It's funny, but when I was a teenager, liberals understood the need to protect the minority from persecute the tyranny of the majority. Today's illiberal leftists, however, do little but defend the huge majority as it persecutes any minority that gets in its path -- as long as they perceive this majority as non white, mind you.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

iacardsfan said:
Maybe not focused on one certain religion, but anything disparaging on any religion to be punishable.
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Then would this also include those Religions that have come and gone? Moreover if you cannot have disparaging remarks. Then there should be no Glorifying Remarks either.....just as you cannot grow an Apple without it's Core.....Right?
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Klown said:
It could create a legal precedence

Perhaps a new law making it illegal to criticize anything Iceland does as a nation - punishable by death.

Anti-Icelandic hatred cannot be tolerated in a functioning fascist corpocracy such as the USA.

(good luck with the supreme court overturning, I have it from a very secure source in the USA that the media, congress, banks and legal system are all controlled by you know who)
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Jeez, I'd picked up that you are a radical, but I didn't have you down as a hypocrite until now. You talk about the USA being a fascist corporatocracy then go a trot out stuff like I've highlighted that could be a straight quote from Mein Kampf. You're either mindless, misguided or malign, or would you like to take this opportunity to apologise?
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Andalublue said:
You're either mindless, misguided or malign
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Would I be out of line were I to point out your potential misuse of mutually exclusive trichotomies?
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Gardener said:
Would I be out of line were I to point out your potential misuse of mutually exclusive trichotomies?
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Knock yourself out, beat yourself up or get the f**k out.
 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Paschendale said:
Let me comment on the hate speech bit that was brought up earlier. The point about hate speech or fighting words is that they are calculated to bring about a violent reaction. That was the intent. From what I understand, this film was not meant as real academic critique. It was instead an insult, founded mainly in the religious bigotry of the creator. If he created a benign film, and the reaction was surprising and not at all what he intended to happen, then he has done nothing wrong. If instead he intentionally crafted an inflammatory and insulting piece, with no purpose other than to degrade and hurt people, then he is responsible for the current situation, and should be held accountable. Intent matters. No extra laws are necessary in this situation. We already hold people accountable for their calculated acts (including speech) that were intended to provoke a violent reaction.
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No, what's prohibited are "fighting words", not "hate speech", whatever the hell that might be. You can't scream insults at a mob on the verge of violence because there's a legitimate public interest in averting violence. It's never been suggested that you couldn't speak if somehow, your words would get back to a person on the other side of the planet and incite that person to violence.

Prohibiting fighting words is entirely different from prohibiting speech because apprehension exists that someone on Planet Earth may be offended and act out violently. I'd like to remind you that while the film that incited this week's riots may have no artistic value to you, Salmon Rhusdie's novel, "Midnight's Children", for which he was sentenced to death by the Ayatollah, went on to win the Pulitzer in the US and the Booker in Great Britain.

I don't think the US should stop being the US to give comfort to people who are severely repressed, live in a theocracy and fail to satisfy most Americans' ideas of fundamental human rights. I don't think we should surrender our freedoms to buy a temporary pause in violence that has been going on all my life.

What I think should happen instead is, more nations should embrace real freedom and just so they know it when they see it, I say we continue to serve as the best example of that.

 
Re: Should The US Make Speech That's Critical or Disparaging of Mohammed a Crime?

Andalublue said:
Knock yourself out, beat yourself up or get the f**k out.
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Can't I just repeat the out, up, and out until my rhetoric finds its proper release?
 
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