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Are we better off than the prehistoric man?

I think that if I was homeless, I would want to die and disappear. I guess this is the same as those prehistoric clansmen who lost their place and were pushed out for something like breaking a taboo. What on Earth makes a homeless guy want to get back on his feet?


The desire to survive and the will to do what is necessary to achieve that goal. In this case, all he had to do was show up for a job interview, pass a drug screening and driving report, and show up for work and do the job. Then save money until he could get a cheap vehicle and rent a place to live. Does that really sound so hard, so impossible? Many do it.
 
Okay, with this kind of differentiated comparison, I can agree with. It looks like a bunch of modern work styles are easy compared to the pre-historic guy's, but not all. But even with the background maintenance works of clothing etc. I think the prehistoric ones worked less hours than we do, timewise.

I think that they did not, their entire lives were dependent on their work, on their hunt on their preparedness. Waking at the brink of dawn.. hunting until you go t dinner on the table (if you were successful), often coming home in the evening or staying out overnight Getting home with the kill, having to dress the kill, skin it, portion it, tan the hides, whittle needles from the bones, smoke some of the meat, and cook dinner. Then perhaps take some time around the campfire making those spearpoints for the next hunt, maybe telling a few tales in the meantime, perhaps a few hours fornicating, and then another day of work ahead. Packing up all your belongings roaming for miles to follow the herds, setting up camp, unsetting up camp, more following the herd, another kill, another huge batch of work processing the carcass for materials essential to your survival.

I don't know, I just don't seem to spend a lot of my evenings cutting down trees and processing toilet paper to wipe my ass, or having to carve a toothbrush and affix boars hair into it, or carving a turkey bone into a sewing needle all that much. My evenings are spent doing what I want to do (my days are as well at times), not what I HAVE to do just to survive.
 
How do you know? You've never lived in a nursing home or a prison, nor been an Eskimo or a tribesman... all you have to go on is second and thirdhand info and the theoretical musings of the "we never should have invented agriculture" crowd.

Ever been dehydrated? It's horrible. I'd hate to die of thirst or hunger, it would suck.

My parents lived at home until they died in their 80's. We, their children and grandchildren and kin, took care of them. My Dad did spend a few weeks in a nursing home, once when he was in bad shape, but we didn't like it so we brought him home to pass his final months.

In his last few months my father could no longer walk without help, and he had trouble concentrating and remembering things a lot. I spoke with him on the day he died though, and he had a big smile for me, his son, and he looked happy to see me and glad I was there to spend some time talking with him.

My mother lived at home until she passed away. She spent her last couple days in Hospice, where they gave her meds to make her as comfortable as possible. She died with her family around her and passed peacefully.

Read about someone dying of tetanus before the invention of tetanus vaccine. It is a horrific and ugly thing, and could happen to you regardless of age. All it takes is a tiny little infected wound and a lack of modern medicine.


Prisons are a bad place to be, but then again if you act as a predator towards members of you own society you shouldn't expect to be coddled. Even so, prisons are typically not as bad as fiction and movies make them out to be. Every prison I've visited in the course of my duties appeared to be reasonably well-run and pretty orderly, and while violence occurred it was not an everyday thing.

As for the homeless, well yeah a lot of them need to be in mental institutions or drug rehab... but there are limits to what society is willing to pay for. Just because modern society isn't perfect is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water, and assuming you are halfway sound of body and mind you don't HAVE to be homeless, or remain homeless for very long. There are many charities that will be glad to help you get back on your feet if you're willing to work.

I agree that dehydration sucks a lot. But hunger is not that bad, I heard.

And, from what you are saying, doesn't it look like that modern society has greatly boosted our addiction to our own lives?
 
How do you know? You've never lived in a nursing home or a prison, nor been an Eskimo or a tribesman... all you have to go on is second and thirdhand info and the theoretical musings of the "we never should have invented agriculture" crowd.

Ever been dehydrated? It's horrible. I'd hate to die of thirst or hunger, it would suck.

My parents lived at home until they died in their 80's. We, their children and grandchildren and kin, took care of them. My Dad did spend a few weeks in a nursing home, once when he was in bad shape, but we didn't like it so we brought him home to pass his final months.

In his last few months my father could no longer walk without help, and he had trouble concentrating and remembering things a lot. I spoke with him on the day he died though, and he had a big smile for me, his son, and he looked happy to see me and glad I was there to spend some time talking with him.

My mother lived at home until she passed away. She spent her last couple days in Hospice, where they gave her meds to make her as comfortable as possible. She died with her family around her and passed peacefully.

Read about someone dying of tetanus before the invention of tetanus vaccine. It is a horrific and ugly thing, and could happen to you regardless of age. All it takes is a tiny little infected wound and a lack of modern medicine.


Prisons are a bad place to be, but then again if you act as a predator towards members of you own society you shouldn't expect to be coddled. Even so, prisons are typically not as bad as fiction and movies make them out to be. Every prison I've visited in the course of my duties appeared to be reasonably well-run and pretty orderly, and while violence occurred it was not an everyday thing.

As for the homeless, well yeah a lot of them need to be in mental institutions or drug rehab... but there are limits to what society is willing to pay for. Just because modern society isn't perfect is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water, and assuming you are halfway sound of body and mind you don't HAVE to be homeless, or remain homeless for very long. There are many charities that will be glad to help you get back on your feet if you're willing to work.

Primitive people were all homeless, weren't they?
 
I think that they did not, their entire lives were dependent on their work, on their hunt on their preparedness. Waking at the brink of dawn.. hunting until you go t dinner on the table (if you were successful), often coming home in the evening or staying out overnight Getting home with the kill, having to dress the kill, skin it, portion it, tan the hides, whittle needles from the bones, smoke some of the meat, and cook dinner. Then perhaps take some time around the campfire making those spearpoints for the next hunt, maybe telling a few tales in the meantime, perhaps a few hours fornicating, and then another day of work ahead. Packing up all your belongings roaming for miles to follow the herds, setting up camp, unsetting up camp, more following the herd, another kill, another huge batch of work processing the carcass for materials essential to your survival.

I don't know, I just don't seem to spend a lot of my evenings cutting down trees and processing toilet paper to wipe my ass, or having to carve a toothbrush and affix boars hair into it, or carving a turkey bone into a sewing needle all that much. My evenings are spent doing what I want to do (my days are as well at times), not what I HAVE to do just to survive.


Exactly right. I don't buy into this nonsense that primitive HG's had more leisure time than modern people.

There was a time when I was out of work for about three months and atypically had trouble finding another job. Unemployment scarcely paid the bills and there was almost nothing left for groceries. We had some bagged bulk rice and grits and a few canned goods, and for meat I went hunting in the woods every couple of days.... alternating job hunting with animal hunting you see. :)

Let me stress that we were NOT totally dependent on what I killed for food, just for the meat portion of our daily rations. Let me further point out that I had a modern firearm and ammunition, steel blades, metal cookpots and an electric range to cook on.

It was still quite a lot of bother to hunt, kill, clean and dress and butcher animals, and to cook them, even though I had modern tools and it was to SUPPLEMENT our food supply, not act as our only supply. There were days I came back empty-handed and that would have sucked if we hadn't had the bagged rice and grits... which are agricultural products...
 
I believe that life today is on average less nasty, brutish, and short than it was back then.
 
I agree that dehydration sucks a lot. But hunger is not that bad, I heard.

Tell that to the starving toddlers in Somalia.

starving-children.jpg


And, from what you are saying, doesn't it look like that modern society has greatly boosted our addiction to our own lives?


Bud, you're going to have to explain that one to me. I'm pretty sure I do not get what you mean, or why you seem to view this as a negative.
 
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We evolved to be the way we are now. Well...technically speaking we self domesticated ourselves to be the way we are now. Genetically speaking, our genes have been evolving at an accelerated rate over the last 50,000 years. We are more of a socially cohesive species than prehistoric man ever was, hence why we can now form nations rather than just tribes. Of course, we have lost a bit of our individuality in that transition but as long as we maintain enough to keep totalitarian leaders out of power then we generally do well to keep our competing group disagreements civil if not always rational.

As far as violence is concerned, even with the great atrocities of the 20th century, we are far, far less violent than we were in the past.
 
Tell that to the starving toddlers in Somalia.

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Bud, you're going to have to explain that one to me. I'm pretty sure I do not get what you mean, or why you seem to view this as a negative.

Well everyone's age seems to be 20+ here and I know that they think differently. But I would like to stay truthful to reality. Forever, in all historic ages, losing one's life was everyone's greatest fear as well as the greatest legal punishment too. So, we all carry our lives as a great package that is easily hurt, like some pair of balls. This is like an addiction. However reality doesn't care about any of this, there is nobody who would have a "job" of accounting for our lives. So the best practice is then to distance ourselves from it, that way we can go ahead and we will not feel the loss of our lives as something destructive or punishing to us. The prehistoric man naturally understood this. (I guess for the high mortality rate around him.) But modern comfort does the opposite and leads us into the delusion that our life is something bigger, hence we now have a very big addiction (to it).
 
We evolved to be the way we are now. Well...technically speaking we self domesticated ourselves to be the way we are now. Genetically speaking, our genes have been evolving at an accelerated rate over the last 50,000 years. We are more of a socially cohesive species than prehistoric man ever was, hence why we can now form nations rather than just tribes. Of course, we have lost a bit of our individuality in that transition but as long as we maintain enough to keep totalitarian leaders out of power then we generally do well to keep our competing group disagreements civil if not always rational.

As far as violence is concerned, even with the great atrocities of the 20th century, we are far, far less violent than we were in the past.

Can this be only because 20th century populations grew faster than the kill rate of generally deployed weapons?
 
Can this be only because 20th century populations grew faster than the kill rate of generally deployed weapons?

Unlikely. Weapons have gotten considerably better to the point that we could literally kill off every human on the planet in a matter of hours. If we were as violent as our prehistoric cousins...well...the cockroaches would have a lot more room.
 
Well everyone's age seems to be 20+ here and I know that they think differently. But I would like to stay truthful to reality. Forever, in all historic ages, losing one's life was everyone's greatest fear as well as the greatest legal punishment too. So, we all carry our lives as a great package that is easily hurt, like some pair of balls. This is like an addiction. However reality doesn't care about any of this, there is nobody who would have a "job" of accounting for our lives. So the best practice is then to distance ourselves from it, that way we can go ahead and we will not feel the loss of our lives as something destructive or punishing to us. The prehistoric man naturally understood this. (I guess for the high mortality rate around him.) But modern comfort does the opposite and leads us into the delusion that our life is something bigger, hence we now have a very big addiction (to it).


Ah, okay. I sort of thought it was something like that, but I wasn't sure and wanted to be clear.

Humans fear death. All animals respond to the threat of death with a reaction that, if it isn't fear, certainly resembles it. It is instinctive to avoid death. I'm quite sure primitive man was no exception.

Now, I'm reasonably sure that isn't exactly what you meant. You're talking about the value we place on our lives, and I would add "on life in general".

Yes, in the days when 1/3rd of children died before reaching 20... when a lot of 20-somethings died of simple infections or small wounds or by violence or accident or any of a host of other reasons... when living to be 40 was quite an accomplishment, and death was a pervasive thing that you saw a lot of... yes, I'm sure it had a profound affect on how people thought about life.

The thing is, I'm not so sure it was a positive effect.

In studying historical texts and records and the written accounts of people who lived in such times (which basically means most of human existence prior to the 19th or 20th centuries), yes they were perhaps more accepting of death as a part of life. They were more inclined to be risk-takers than modern man, in many cases... after all, if you know that the odds are iffy that you'll even live another ten years, you have less to risk than someone who expects to live another 50 years.

Risk-acceptance isn't necessarily a positive, however. It can result in destructive behaviors.

There's also a downside to putting less value on your life.... in many cases you will tend to value the lives of OTHERS less as well. Clearly, if you study history and historical figures, many people seemed far more willing to harm and kill others for short-term gain than is the case in most of the civilized modern world.

Short lifespans would also tend to make long-term planning and goals somewhat less attractive to many people. There would be more orphaned children, who might or might not be taken care of by the tribe... this can vary in different primitive cultures, some will and some won't (take care of orphans). Retaining knowlege and skills long-term would be tricky... anyone with a valued rare skill would need to try to pass it on to apprentices as fast as possible, lest the tribe lose it entirely via the skilled man's early demise.


There is no reason to assume that living in a society where early death was common would produce anything like serenity and peaceful acceptance. History and anthropology do not support such a hypothesis. It would be just as likely to produce a grim and doomful mind as a serene one.

Read about Gilgamesh the King. He was a legendary warrior king of Babylon, reputedly a incredibly brave fighting man... yet he was also said to fear death greatly and spent great effort trying to find a way to avoid eventual demise. This ancient chronicle is an excellent view on the dichotomy of the human condition in an era when a short life was commonplace, and a legendary character who was a brave risk-taker yet still feared death and sought to avoid it.

You don't have to de-value life in order to be brave.


So tell me why exactly is valuing life such a negative to you? Or under-valuing it such a positive?

You're undoubtably young, and probably have little worry about dying of natural causes anytime soon. You don't seem to know much about the scuzzy underbelly of society, so I'm guessing that you don't live in a dangerous high-crime area. Why do you think you NEED to put aside an attachment to life? There's no indication that your environment requires such a detachment. Has someone you care for died recently?

How you choose to view life, and the inevitability of death, is a very personal matter which may involve philosophy, religion, environment, family influences, social influences, and many other factors... but it will ultimately be YOU who chooses how you will view it and cope with it.

To me, a short life is often tragic, because there is so much you would miss. Accomplishments, children, grandchildren.... WISDOM, which rarely begins to set in before 30, is another thing missing.... there's a reason why many primitive tribes had a council of elders... which often meant anyone over 28... because time and experience gives you perspective in a way that cannot be matched.

You are young and have barely scratched the surface of the potential of your life. I advise you to value it and treasure it, despite knowing that one day you will lose it... given time, you will understand why I say this.
 
Tell that to the starving toddlers in Somalia.

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Bud, you're going to have to explain that one to me. I'm pretty sure I do not get what you mean, or why you seem to view this as a negative.

So really - for a lot of people in the world - life just isn't much different. Maybe they're even worse off.
 
So really - for a lot of people in the world - life just isn't much different. Maybe they're even worse off.


It is a complicated issue, involving many things.

Politics... some groups get pushed out in to the desert...

Lack of development, government corruption.

Lack of knowlege, lack of equipment to farm properly.

Too much population for the land to support in some areas, whether agrarian or HG.

Cultural and social issues...

Big complicated mess that isn't going to be solved with any quick fixes.
 
Okay, for example, in a prehistoric society, everyone in the horde/group had a role. It was never the role of getting fat whilst idle or wondering about one's own usefulness. Every member was accepted unconditionally, and they understood their roles and worked it.

In modern society, every acceptance is conditional, every role is questionable, and every value is only a consequence of erratic market volatilities.

So, the prehistoric guy had mental security, and from that, he could bid for physical security. The modern guy can have neither.


What a bunch of absurd assumptions. In primitive societies the only law was no law and power ruled. Your hippy Woodstock view has no realistic basic.
 
I think that they did not, their entire lives were dependent on their work, on their hunt on their preparedness. Waking at the brink of dawn.. hunting until you go t dinner on the table (if you were successful), often coming home in the evening or staying out overnight Getting home with the kill, having to dress the kill, skin it, portion it, tan the hides, whittle needles from the bones, smoke some of the meat, and cook dinner. Then perhaps take some time around the campfire making those spearpoints for the next hunt, maybe telling a few tales in the meantime, perhaps a few hours fornicating, and then another day of work ahead. Packing up all your belongings roaming for miles to follow the herds, setting up camp, unsetting up camp, more following the herd, another kill, another huge batch of work processing the carcass for materials essential to your survival.

I don't know, I just don't seem to spend a lot of my evenings cutting down trees and processing toilet paper to wipe my ass, or having to carve a toothbrush and affix boars hair into it, or carving a turkey bone into a sewing needle all that much. My evenings are spent doing what I want to do (my days are as well at times), not what I HAVE to do just to survive.

Actually more like farm life not too long ago in the winter.

They sat around and made/did things while interacting with each other.

Remember, they weren't manufacturing disposable crap. They were crafting things, processing food. No storage to speak of, no profit taking. When the taro is pounded for the week you do something else. You dont pound taro all day for the rest of your life.

Its a very different lifestyle, and while bereft of most of our creature comforts, probably wasnt as terrible as many think.

Stone tools and fire took us out of the foodchain, made us too dangerous to hunt eyond opportunistically.

We're excellent eating machines, with thumbs. Highly adaptable.

So while not luxurious, not horrid either.
 
Stone tools and fire took us out of the foodchain, made us too dangerous to hunt eyond opportunistically.

There is still a short list of animals that will attack humans without provocation. Among those are the tiger, the grizzly bear, the polar bear, the crocodile, and the cape buffalo.

Which of these would you like to confront with fire and stone tools?
 
With the severe medical issues I had as an infant, I would say I am better off in the modern world since I am actually alive.
 
With the severe medical issues I had as an infant, I would say I am better off in the modern world since I am actually alive.

You and at least half of the population of the modern world.

Infant mortality in primitive society had to have been well over 50%.
 
There is still a short list of animals that will attack humans without provocation. Among those are the tiger, the grizzly bear, the polar bear, the crocodile, and the cape buffalo.



Which of these would you like to confront with fire and stone tools?

Even with a gun youre not safe from these animals alone.

My point was we stopped being prey animals when fire and stone tools made us too dangerous.

A 40 pound wolverine can run a bear or mountain lion off a kill. Would the larger animal win? Of course. Its just not worth it.

Wolves were our last "enemies". Because they are cooperative hunters like us.
 
I don't mean to be rude, but really?

There was no electricity, refrigeration, or medicine back then. Unlike today if you wanted to garden you had to worry about getting EATEN. Got an infection? Well, good luck with that. The only fast food out there was either you or your prey. Bored? There's some rocks over there you can play with, or maybe some of your grandfather's bones in the back of the cave.
 
Are We Better Off . . .

(chuckle)

All you have to do is look back to Oct - Dec 2008 and ask that question. What do you think the answer is . . .
 
There is still a short list of animals that will attack humans without provocation. Among those are the tiger, the grizzly bear, the polar bear, the crocodile, and the cape buffalo.

Which of these would you like to confront with fire and stone tools?

To quote a guy I know who wrote this in an archery magazine

In the cave man era, bowstrings were made of fish guts. They were good for a few shots at a Mastadon, then the string broke and the caveman died.

ever see a Masai warrior kill a lion with a spear. ITs effective but dangerous. 5-6 masai warriors carry cowhide shields and a masai spear. I have a few-the are made of a piece of iron rod, a wood handle in the middle and a long double edged blade that sort of looks like a roman gladiator's short sword that was stretched several feet.

well what the Masai do is they sneak up on a lion and try to surround it. The lion will generally charge one of the warriors. HE plants the butt of his spear in the ground and falls back covering his vitals with the shield. Hopefully the lion will impale itself on the spear and the other guys will quickly stab it too

yet have a few hundred pounds of mortally wounded lion on you is no picnic

and these are sharp steel blades. not flint or obsidian.
 
We're obviously better off then the prehistoric man.

Prehistoria includes dinosaurs. Dinosaurs include velociraptors. Velociraptors include having one's stomach slashed open whilst being eaten alive.

Modern era > Prehistoria
 
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