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Have you every received some form government assistance?

Have you ever received governmrnt assistance?

  • Yes

    Votes: 43 65.2%

  • No

    Votes: 19 28.8%

  • My parents did on my behalf when I was a kid

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • Total voters
    66
Hare said:
I'm simply stating the evident and undeniable fact that not all who find themselves among the lower end of the income spectrum are there due to their own incompetence or lack of motivation. Nuance is a rather important concept to grasp when discussing matters of the sort.
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Not all, but most, in my opinion. Perhaps they don't have an education. Maybe they've made bad decisions and got started out wrong. Maybe they cared about nothing much more than making enough money to pay the bills. Or maybe they didn't care if they were late with some. Maybe they resisted change. Perhaps they didn't like responsibility -- wanted to punch out and be done for the day. Could be they have a poor work ethic. An attitude problem. Maybe they lacked self-confidence and never asked for a raise. Some of them are quite happy where they are except when it comes to complaining about how others are holding them back. Many don't recognize the value of ambition. It's not a four-letter word, after all. Or the value of mentors. Some people can't take orders. They can't fit into a company's culture and could care less.

If someone is at the bottom of the income ladder for years, aside from health reasons, they have only themselves to blame.
 
Cephus said:
Not semantics at all. A freebie is something that you are given with no strings attached, it's a gift. An incentive is something you are given in order to extract even more money and intangible benefits for the person giving you the incentive in the first place. You get that incentive because you're worth more to the city/state as a homeowner than you are as a renter.
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Yes, semantics. Your description confirmed it. The home buyer gets the freebie/incentive, then has to do nothing else in return beyond purchasing the home. You may be worth more to someone else, which is nothing more than a parallel benefit. Bottom line: You're still getting something given to you.

Have you ever taken a home mortgage deduction? I note that you have avoided saying one way or another.

If you have, you probably don't have enough intellectual honesty and backbone to admit that you have indeed taken a freebie from the government, and don't want to admit it now because you have painted yourself into a corner, but you know the real answer... as inconvenient to you and your "I'm 100% independent!" rhetoric as it may be.
 
Cephus said:
These were people who apparently didn't do much research into their chosen field. They didn't know that upwards mobility was difficult? Seriously?
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As if one can foresee all tenure based promotions, personal bias, budget shortfalls, and other unforeseen circumstances that may hinder promotions, pay raises and the like. Pie in the sky nonsense as a whole.
 
radcen said:
Yes, semantics. Your description confirmed it. The home buyer gets the freebie/incentive, then has to do nothing else in return beyond purchasing the home. You may be worth more to someone else, which is nothing more than a parallel benefit. Bottom line: You're still getting something given to you.
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What do you mean you have to do nothing else? Then you start paying property taxes, which goes into the city's larders. Then you start paying sales taxes in the city, which goes to the government. Then you start contributing to the city's community and stability, which reduces costs for city services like police. The more houses they fill, the higher property values rise and the more money they make off the next guys who move in down the street! You buying a house makes the city and state you live in a ton of money, they're offering incentives to get you in the door!

What, you thought they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?

It's like those stupid As-Seen-On-TV things. But wait! Act today and they'll double your order! Just pay separate shipping and handling, which costs you more than the item they're giving you "free". But maybe you think they're giving you freebies too!
 
Pell Grant, and wife's pregnancy. We were in between insurances, and Medicaid saved our lives.
 
Cephus said:
What do you mean you have to do nothing else? Then you start paying property taxes, which goes into the city's larders. Then you start paying sales taxes in the city, which goes to the government. Then you start contributing to the city's community and stability, which reduces costs for city services like police. The more houses they fill, the higher property values rise and the more money they make off the next guys who move in down the street! You buying a house makes the city and state you live in a ton of money, they're offering incentives to get you in the door!

What, you thought they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?

It's like those stupid As-Seen-On-TV things. But wait! Act today and they'll double your order! Just pay separate shipping and handling, which costs you more than the item they're giving you "free". But maybe you think they're giving you freebies too!
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Landlords don't pay property taxes? :shrug: Oh, wait, yes, they do. Whomever owns the property pays property taxes.

Mortgage deductions are federal/national. People will pay sales taxes regardless which area they live, and regardless whether they own, rent, or squat. Not even remotely associated.

If a home buyer buys according to property tax rates, that is a local decision based on local tax rates, and has nothing to do with the national/federal aspect of the mortgage deduction directly.

And yes, as I have said... twice... there are some parallel benefits. Community stability is a nice one. I'm a big believer in that one. Still doesn't lessen the fact that you're getting a freebie in the form of a handout, parallel motivations notwithstanding.

Since you're deftly avoiding the specific question, I'll presume that you have indeed taken said home mortgage deduction at some point in your life. In fact, and I'm projecting here I know, I'd bet you bought your home primarily because it was a good financial move, and that you didn't *need* the deduction, but took it anyway because that was a good financial move as well... which makes it even more of a handout. But... that would be an inconvenient thing to admit. :doh
 
Cephus said:
There's a difference between a freebie and an incentive.
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The mortgage interest deduction is absolutely a freebie to homeowners. And it is only an "incentive" in the same sense that any other government assistance to encourage/discourage a specific type of behavior is an incentive. Just like you don't get money for food stamps if you don't buy groceries, and you don't get subsidized student loans if you aren't in school, you don't get a mortgage interest deduction if you don't have a home mortgage.
 
Boo Radley said:
Those who can and will do those, sure. But I had a friend at WS (another site) who was a conservative and argued for that often. During our crash here, he lost much, next to all of it. Being at the retirement age, he was shocked at how much it cost him to have done it that way. He was thankful to have the government aid. In other words, he changed his mind. I noted it.
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I've run the math on this about a dozen times for the various threads we've run on this topic. You would have to take a lower growth rate than we've seen for private accounts, produce two back-to-back 2008/2009 style meltdowns, and then have the individual involved make the worst possible set of decisions regarding withdrawal in order to knock the returns of a private account down to what they would get from Social Security.

The fact is, few are good at finances.
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For my examples, I use index funds. It's not exactly that difficult to purchase an index fund. And the reason that so few are good at finances is because A) we don't teach it and B) we do not (by and large) teach the values that go with it. If we never teach our children to be frugal, and we never show them how to live on less than they make, how can we expect them to be any good at finance?


Some will slip through and be unable to liveonce they reach that age. As a people, we have to decide how we handle that.
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:shrug: guarantee the same return as one would have received from SS. for those whose accounts fall below that level, we make up the difference. my bet would be that we very rarely have to pay out.
 
cpwill said:
I've run the math on this about a dozen times for the various threads we've run on this topic. You would have to take a lower growth rate than we've seen for private accounts, produce two back-to-back 2008/2009 style meltdowns, and then have the individual involved make the worst possible set of decisions regarding withdrawal in order to knock the returns of a private account down to what they would get from Social Security.



For my examples, I use index funds. It's not exactly that difficult to purchase an index fund. And the reason that so few are good at finances is because A) we don't teach it and B) we do not (by and large) teach the values that go with it. If we never teach our children to be frugal, and we never show them how to live on less than they make, how can we expect them to be any good at finance?




:shrug: guarantee the same return as one would have received from SS. for those whose accounts fall below that level, we make up the difference. my bet would be that we very rarely have to pay out.
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Your numbers, for whatever they are worth don't change what he reported.

And what you would do, if left to others, doesn't equal what everyone would do.
 
radcen said:
Is this relatively new? I have never heard of this.

To be honest, I'm not sure I like it. The kids can get their own GI BIll when they serve.
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I don't know how "new" it is. I know it's part of post-9/11, but not sure if it was part of Montgomery as well. The deal is that you can't pass on your benefits to someone else until you have already served 10 years. Since the GI Bill is really designed for young bucks who do a single 4/5-year hitch and then get out, it's not really that good a fit for those who stay in longer. Once you've been in 10 years, in all likelihood you have a family. You can't support a family on the BAH that you get from the GI Bill, however awesome a set-up it is for the younger guys. Allowing the career guys to pass on their GI Bill to an immediate family member (spouses also rate) is seen as a way of letting them keep the benefit they have already earned, which their further service made more difficult to receive.
 
Boo Radley said:
Your numbers, for whatever they are worth don't change what he reported.
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I am sure that he reported that he lost alot, and that he was glad SS was there. That doesn't change the math.

And what you would do, if left to others, doesn't equal what everyone would do.
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privatized accounts within government programs can pretty easily be restricted in the kinds of investments they accept.
 
cpwill said:
I am sure that he reported that he lost alot, and that he was glad SS was there. That doesn't change the math.



privatized accounts within government programs can pretty easily be restricted in the kinds of investments they accept.
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I'm not sure I trust your math. I would like to see it from someone without a dog in the fight.

And what we're were talking about is us handling it ourselves, not the government handling anything.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm not sure I trust your math. I would like to see it from someone without a dog in the fight.
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Ah yes, the ole "cpwill has something that is inconvenient, so he must be lying" defense. :( You have turned to it more and more since the days of WS. Fortunately for you, I have laid out my math in detail; so please feel free to peruse and check where necessary. :)

And what we're were talking about is us handling it ourselves, not the government handling anything.
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we were talking (as I understood it) about privatized Social Security accounts.
 
Smeagol said:
-Welfare
-AFDC
-Medicaid
-Food stamps/EBT cards
-Government cheese/government peanut butter
-Free or reduced school lunches
-WIC
-Pell grant
-Cash for clunkers
-Electric vehicle tax credit
-Federal Tax Credits for Energy Efficiency for solar, wind or geothermal upgrades
-Unemployment compensation
-Free or discounted digital TV converter box
-Free Government Cell Phone
-Section 8 housing tenant or landlord
-HUD project resident
-First time home buyer down payment assistance
-Any other government hand out for which you or your parents when you were a minor had to request or otherwise apply


Academic and athletic scholarships and GI Bill excluded as those are earned. Social Security and Medicare excluded as well as we are all required to pay into it.
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I have been on unemployment (80's). First time home buyer (low down payment, but strenuous qualifications and mortgage/earthquake insurance required). Federal tax credit for energy (windows, water heater and furnace).

Without going through the thread, what's your point?
 
I've never been on any kind of government assistance.

I am, however, looking forward to government assisted retirement ..

.. Assuming, of course, such won't be the myth everyone keeps telling me it's gonna be.
 
cpwill said:
Ah yes, the ole "cpwill has something that is inconvenient, so he must be lying" defense. :( You have turned to it more and more since the days of WS. Fortunately for you, I have laid out my math in detail; so please feel free to peruse and check where necessary. :)



we were talking (as I understood it) about privatized Social Security accounts.
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Lying is your word not mine. But, there is no reason for anyone to accept either mine nor your math, or that we say so. And linking yourself isn't all that convincing.

And I understood it to be about moving it to private individuals, meaning no government involvment:

post97 said:
A great argument for private investment accounts.
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Smeagol said:
-Welfare
-AFDC
-Medicaid
-Food stamps/EBT cards
-Government cheese/government peanut butter
-Free or reduced school lunches
-WIC
-Pell grant
-Cash for clunkers
-Electric vehicle tax credit
-Federal Tax Credits for Energy Efficiency for solar, wind or geothermal upgrades
-Unemployment compensation
-Free or discounted digital TV converter box
-Free Government Cell Phone
-Section 8 housing tenant or landlord
-HUD project resident
-First time home buyer down payment assistance
-Any other government hand out for which you or your parents when you were a minor had to request or otherwise apply


Academic and athletic scholarships and GI Bill excluded as those are earned. Social Security and Medicare excluded as well as we are all required to pay into it.
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I include public schools and roads... police and fire departments.
 
Boo Radley said:
Lying is your word not mine. But, there is no reason for anyone to accept either mine nor your math, or that we say so. And linking yourself isn't all that convincing.
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I linked the post where I had laid out the math, and given you all of the inputs, if you want to check them, feel free to do so.

And I understood it to be about moving it to private individuals, meaning no government involvment:
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Not necessarily. No government involvement, for example, would basically be getting rid of SS all-together, rather than turning it into a forced-savings program.
 
SheWolf said:
I include public schools and roads... police and fire departments.
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Those are generally considered "public goods" rather than "private aid".
 
cpwill said:
I linked the post where I had laid out the math, and given you all of the inputs, if you want to check them, feel free to do so.



Not necessarily. No government involvement, for example, would basically be getting rid of SS all-together, rather than turning it into a forced-savings program.
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I'm not sure I could spot your errors. I prefer someone I know who understands this going over it. You may know enough to be dangerous as they say in medicine.

ANd yes, I took as getting rid of it altogether and having us handle this ourselves.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm not sure I could spot your errors. I prefer someone I know who understands this going over it. You may know enough to be dangerous as they say in medicine.
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It's basic compound interest followed by some multiplication and division. I did it on Excel. If you want, I'll describe to you how.

ANd yes, I took as getting rid of it altogether and having us handle this ourselves.
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Then I'm not sure you took it as it is meant, although maybe the poster did mean that, in which case he is indeed outside the norm even of the entitlement reform movement.
 
cpwill said:
It's basic compound interest followed by some multiplication and division. I did it on Excel. If you want, I'll describe to you how.



Then I'm not sure you took it as it is meant, although maybe the poster did mean that, in which case he is indeed outside the norm even of the entitlement reform movement.
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No, it is all only as good as what you put in. I would need to know what you missed. That requires someone else be involved.

Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Can't say. But I can say what I answered to.
 
Smeagol said:
-Welfare
-AFDC
-Medicaid
-Food stamps/EBT cards
-Government cheese/government peanut butter
-Free or reduced school lunches
-WIC
-Pell grant
-Cash for clunkers
-Electric vehicle tax credit
-Federal Tax Credits for Energy Efficiency for solar, wind or geothermal upgrades
-Unemployment compensation
-Free or discounted digital TV converter box
-Free Government Cell Phone
-Section 8 housing tenant or landlord
-HUD project resident
-First time home buyer down payment assistance
-Any other government hand out for which you or your parents when you were a minor had to request or otherwise apply


Academic and athletic scholarships and GI Bill excluded as those are earned. Social Security and Medicare excluded as well as we are all required to pay into it.
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Yeah, why?
 
Surtr said:
Yeah, why?
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Hoping to show some diehard anti-entiment folks that if they really thought hard about most of have needed the safety net or hand up help from uncle Sam at some point in our lives. Friends, family members and maybe even the guy or lady in the mirror. Even some pro-football teams get state and city government help with stadium subsidies.

I have a friend who is a passionate conservative but suppliments his income with section 8 rental property. I have another friend who deceided to get on a soap box with with on special interest groups getting the federal hook up. He's a mental health counselor who is ordained by his church. I asked him if he opposes the IRS Pastonage allowance and he turned as red as anybody I'd ever seen who wasnt sunburned.
 
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Smeagol said:
Hoping to show some diehard anti-entiment folks that if they really thought hard about most of have needed the safety net or hand up help from uncle Sam at some point in our lives. Friends, family members and maybe even the guy or lady in the mirror.

I have a friend who is a passionate conservative but suppliments his income with section 8 rental property. I have another friend who deceided to get on a soap box with with on special interest groups getting the federal hook up. He's a mental health counselor who is ordained by his church. I asked him if he opposes the IRS Pastonage allowance and he turned as red as anybody I'd ever seen who wasnt sunburned.
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Color hypocrisy red.
 
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