Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

Blackdog said:

You have got to remember I am a social liberal for the most part

Click to expand...

As am I. Libertarianism is essentially left-leaning in social issues.

I don't disagree because you are necessarily wrong (the fiscal conservative in me, lol) I disagree because we should provide a good education no matter where you live or what economic group you are part of.

Click to expand...

Whoa whoa whoa. I never said that economically depressed schools and districts should get bad education. I'm just saying that rich districts should get more luxuries which may have ancillary benefits in education. I think you're seeing this as zero-sum, where rich districts get all the education and the ghetto/inner city/slum districts get the leftovers. That's not what I'm saying at all. I favor all schools, regardless of median incomes within any particular district, to get as quality of an education as feasibly allowable.

If your school has no money for new computers or up to date history books etc. This should never be an issue for k-12.

Click to expand...

And I disagree. Are students really that crippled if they have to use computers with Windows XP instead of Windows 7/8? If they have to use Word/Excel 2003 over 2007 and newer? I don't think they are. Is the life story of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Napoleon Bonaparte, or Winston Churchill any different now than it was in 2008? Negative. Sorry if I don't believe in giving the poor all the "bells and whistles".

It's to important. To deny a good education because they were born impoverished is no excuse. Under your plan the person who could cure cancer being poor would never get the chance because of circumstance out of his/her control.

Click to expand...

They'd get the chance. It just wouldn't be as easy.

Fluffyninja said:

Blackdog raises some good points, as many schools lack the resources to even adequately enforce their own attendance policies........and simply allowing the students to stop attending won't work either as part of the "mystery formula" for measuring a school's effectiveness involves tracking those students who originally enroll all the way through to graduation. Essentially the school is penalized for students who drop out or just stop attending on a regular basis. Is this fair?

Click to expand...

It absolutely is. Nobody can bitch about quality of education in the poorer schools when the kids themselves refuse to go.

Discipline is also a major issue. Try penalizing a student for using his/her I-phone during class to text or to play games and more often than not, you get angry parents who bitch and whine that they "spent hard-earned money to buy their precious that phone and WANT their kid to have it simply for the sake of convenience."

Click to expand...

Then you don't do it. There is a massive difference between having the ability to educate and recipients having the desire to be educated. If students want to skip school, text in class, and generally refuse to learn, they should have that right - but I'd be adamantly against a complete waste of money being used for that purpose. Just let the school suffer, along with the students in it, who don't seem to give a damn anyway (nor do the parents). That's the rub about education - it has to be achieved under one's own volition. You can lead a horse to water, after all...

Gipper said:

As am I. Libertarianism is essentially left-leaning in social issues.



Whoa whoa whoa. I never said that economically depressed schools and districts should get bad education. I'm just saying that rich districts should get more luxuries which may have ancillary benefits in education. I think you're seeing this as zero-sum, where rich districts get all the education and the ghetto/inner city/slum districts get the leftovers. That's not what I'm saying at all. I favor all schools, regardless of median incomes within any particular district, to get as quality of an education as feasibly allowable.



And I disagree. Are students really that crippled if they have to use computers with Windows XP instead of Windows 7/8? If they have to use Word/Excel 2003 over 2007 and newer? I don't think they are. Is the life story of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Napoleon Bonaparte, or Winston Churchill any different now than it was in 2008? Negative. Sorry if I don't believe in giving the poor all the "bells and whistles".



They'd get the chance. It just wouldn't be as easy.



It absolutely is. Nobody can bitch about quality of education in the poorer schools when the kids themselves refuse to go.



Then you don't do it. There is a massive difference between having the ability to educate and recipients having the desire to be educated. If students want to skip school, text in class, and generally refuse to learn, they should have that right - but I'd be adamantly against a complete waste of money being used for that purpose. Just let the school suffer, along with the students in it, who don't seem to give a damn anyway (nor do the parents). That's the rub about education - it has to be achieved under one's own volition. You can lead a horse to water, after all...

Click to expand...

Gipper I luv you man but your argument is just so unrealistic in so many ways. Libertarians just don't have a real connection to the reality's of certain things, never have and never will. That's why they will never really get anyplace politically. I think this is a good thing.

I will just agree to disagree and leave it at that..

Blackdog said:

Gipper I luv you man but your argument is just so unrealistic in so many ways. Libertarians just don't have a real connection to the reality's of certain things, never have and never will. That's why they will never really get anyplace politically. I think this is a good thing.

I will just agree to disagree and leave it at that..

Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that. There are many libertarian-like policies and social experiments that never have and, probably, will never see the light of day. They're too much of a system shock to what's in place.

However, the voucher system is not one of them. There are microcosms of this theory and experiment already put in place out in the real world. In time, we'll see...instead of the old "agree to disagree" walkaway when two people can't meet common ground because one's argument will never be put into effect.

Gipper said:

I'm not sure about that. There are many libertarian-like policies and social experiments that never have and, probably, will never see the light of day. They're too much of a system shock to what's in place.

However, the voucher system is not one of them. There are microcosms of this theory and experiment already put in place out in the real world. In time, we'll see...instead of the old "agree to disagree" walkaway when two people can't meet common ground because one's argument will never be put into effect.

Click to expand...

My argument is not about putting anything into affect and yours has yet to be implemented and may never be. So what?

zstep18 said:

In your opinon, do you believe teachers as a whole are overpaid and underworked? If so, why do you believe that? And where would you rate the teaching profession in terms of it being a respectful and appreciated profession?

Click to expand...

I don't know. How much do they get paid and what is their work week like?

Blackdog said:

My argument is not about putting anything into affect and yours has yet to be implemented and may never be. So what?

Click to expand...

Yours is the establishment argument, and mine actually has been implemented small-scale. That is why I said "wait and see" when enough time has passed to compare results, even if mine are from a very small sample pool.

My OL is a teacher and she gets paid decently. She is also Tenured, which it has taken time to do. Moreover she she does far more in the school. All I can say is I have seen Kids From Grade School to High School all respect and like her. Different generations. Even after they have graduated and have seen her out and about. Parents and even the other staff.

Ikari said:

I don't know. How much do they get paid and what is their work week like?

Click to expand...

In my state the teachers starting salary is $30,000. And they put in about 45-50 hrs/week plus the work and planning they do at home.

zstep18 said:

In my state the teachers starting salary is $30,000. And they put in about 45-50 hrs/week plus the work and planning they do at home.

Click to expand...

Know the feeling. In my state a starting teacher with zero experience can earn a little more than a Wal-Mart Greeter............I really don't know what they do with all that money................but then again, with all the "free time" we teachers have......I guess it's just a win-win situation! :roll:

Gipper said:

Yours is the establishment argument, and mine actually has been implemented small-scale. That is why I said "wait and see" when enough time has passed to compare results, even if mine are from a very small sample pool.

Click to expand...

You are operating under a misconception. I am not arguing establishment. I am arguing on a large scale vouchers will only benefit those who can afford it while the rest (as usual) are stuck wanting. This has little to do with arguing "establishment." What I AM arguing is that until we address the disparity of the cost of education, the idea of vouchers is ridicules. Small scale will prove nothing.

zstep18 said:

In my state the teachers starting salary is $30,000. And they put in about 45-50 hrs/week plus the work and planning they do at home.

Click to expand...

So grading, course planning, etc. we're really looking at maybe at the low side 60 hours a week. Let's say 9 months for easy calculation. That's 13.88 dollars an hour. So off that rough calculation, I would say that teacher salary mean should be 45000-50000/yr

Ikari said:

So grading, course planning, etc. we're really looking at maybe at the low side 60 hours a week. Let's say 9 months for easy calculation. That's 13.88 dollars an hour. So off that rough calculation, I would say that teacher salary mean should be 45000-50000/yr

Click to expand...

Instead of $30,000

OnWisconsin said:

Teachers take care of you children while you are away at work. Have you ever tried taking care of and educating 5+ children at a time, how about 20+ children at a time? For the salary they make they are highly underrated and demonized for very stupid ****. Talk about the right wing finding a scapegoat for the real issues at hand.

Click to expand...

The right wing blame the teachers unions not the teachers themselves.

Phys251 said:

Blatant falsehood. Teachers have been given due process when the school district attempts to fire them, to protect against corrupt administrators.

Fewer things will demotivate teachers more than their sensing a major lack of support from their administration, and these protections help to guard against some of that.

Click to expand...

I believe in getting rid of the teachers unions and the administrators. We get problems from both.

Ikari said:

So grading, course planning, etc. we're really looking at maybe at the low side 60 hours a week. Let's say 9 months for easy calculation. That's 13.88 dollars an hour. So off that rough calculation, I would say that teacher salary mean should be 45000-50000/yr

Click to expand...

That's the average teacher salary in the US right now.

zstep18 said:

Instead of $30,000

Click to expand...

That's not the average teacher's salary. Starting salary, maybe. I started at about $30K. You might be a little surprised at how much I make 9 years later....

Josie said:

That's the average teacher salary in the US right now.

Click to expand...

Oh, that's not so bad then. It's like 20-25 dollars/hr. Maybe should be a bit higher, but you're also talking to someone who thinks we should be on a trimester system and have classes during summer.

Ikari said:

but you're also talking to someone who thinks we should be on a trimester system and have classes during summer.

Click to expand...

I'm so with you on that one. It's dumb to take off 3 months. The kids get lazy and forget a lot of what they've learned. It's just stupid.

My OL started teaching in a Catholic School in which she had so many years there. Yet when she switched over to Public Schools they did not give count all the time she taught in a private School the same as a Public School. Then she went thru the hassle of getting Riffed every time she was about to make Tenure. Which those schools would evaluate her at Excellent on her performance. But still would riff her as they didnt want to pay otu more money.

One thing is for certain. Administrators Shouldnt be making over 70k. Also they don't need all kinds of Superintendants and Assistant ones. Some of these have secretaries who have their own secretary.

JohnWOlin said:

"Hey Im going to send you to a building with a stranger that i trust to help make you a functioning member of society, I am entrusting this person with the most precious thing in my life. Let's give them even less money." As for private school teachers getting paid more or less, my experience is that typically the pay is dependent on the kind of private school. Besides that what do people propose we do to let lower income families afford a private system? Vouchers? That wouldnt likely save money at all.

Click to expand...

The issue of the OP is whether teachers are overpaid and underworked or underpaid and overworked. With respect to Vouchers is not the cost but the attempt to get a better quality education for children by their parents and yes less money is spent because the goverment schools do not want to allow the parent to have all of the money as a voucher.

Ikari said:

Oh, that's not so bad then. It's like 20-25 dollars/hr. Maybe should be a bit higher, but you're also talking to someone who thinks we should be on a trimester system and have classes during summer.

Click to expand...

I agree with this and especially in major Urban cities. Also I think they should gear high school to more of a vocational standard. While teaching Kids about Checking, credit cards, service to Country. Including into Government.

Luna Tick said:

Because the employees have EARNED them. Because the labor is what creates the value. Because without labor there is nothing. Because the rich fat cats don't get rich without that labor. Because without the bargaining power the workers don't get a fair share of the pie. Because 15 cents an hour is not fair compensation. Because a rich fat cat who hasn't created the wealth doesn't deserve a luxury yacht in the Mediterranean while the person who has created the actual wealth has his life destroyed in poverty. Need I go on?

Click to expand...

We're talking about teachers not assembly line workers. One of the big problems in education is we do treat the education of children thru an assembly line model. Each child has strengths and weaknesses and the education methods for that child needs to address those. Your argument treats all teachers the same and that is not the case any compensation should be based on outcomes on how they improve each child from the start of their care to the end.

lpast said:

The results of the thread speaks for itself. What I find peculiar is that Conservatives harp on personal responsibility, when you have teachers that many if not most have masters degrees and do work everyday to be successful, the vilify them and have audacity to say they are paid to much. When their buddies the CEOS make millions for less education many times and get more millions in bonus for FAILING their companies and investors and the conservatives dont mind that one bit....talk about hypocrisy and as this cop puts it..and BS

Click to expand...

I believe Conservatives believe that there are teachers who are not doing the job they are being paid for and they do complain about that. And with reference to CEOs while some neo-cons would back them a true Conservative would use the same reasoning to a CEO.

I personally believe that CEOs should be just for the stock holder getting a good return or increasing value of the stock (that is his job) and I believe that a mechanism should be in place for the stock holders to pay the CEO and not the board of directors of the company. But we have this method where they rub each others backs instead.

Mine puts in a lot of time with the school. She is the Music Teacher. Puts on all the schools plays. Does lunchroom duty. Does an afterschool program with Special Ed kids and is a Rainbow Facilitator.....working with kids from Divorced Families. Also has Bus Duty in getting the kids into the school. Course now she works Elementary from Kindergarden to 6th grade. So from 8 am to 5-30pm she is with students all day.

Oh and she is not a Chicago Public school teacher. As they are a group all on their own in Illinois. Who is about to go on strike not accepting a 2% increase in salary despite the times.

So over 13 years of teaching and she only makes around 65k.

Josie said:

That's not the average teacher's salary. Starting salary, maybe. I started at about $30K. You might be a little surprised at how much I make 9 years later....

Click to expand...

Josie..........how did I not know you were a teacher? :thinking

And, BTW, I agree. I've got 18 years experience and with my coaching supplement, I really can't complain. Even teaching in a "poor state" my income really isn't that bad. Plus, my wife is a teacher as well. It's great that we get all the same vacations that our two children get.........and they're paid vacations(in a manner of speaking).

That being said, I do believe that starting salaries are a bit too low......especially for the required level of education, certification, licensure, etc. which is required to teach. Anyone who can stick it out 20+ (or heck, 9 years even) in this profession, more than deserves a decent raise in compensation. :shrug: