Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?

Gipper said:

If money allows me freedom to not live stressed out by paycheck-to-paycheck status, so be it. If having a brand new Lexus allows me freedom to go wherever I want to go while someone else is stuck at home with a broken-down hoopty, so be it. Money, in general, shouldn't be allowed to buy yourself out of trouble, but if it can ease a mind from work-a-day worries, that's wonderful for them.

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I am not talking about work a day worries only. I am talking about our disappearing working class. In the long run it will hurt this country badly. Nothing wrong with being rich at all. The problem is the trickle down theory is not working and never did.

Gipper said:

Being legal doesn't make it right. Some of the antitrust laws around these days are intrusive, overextending, and borderline criminal.

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Some are, most aren't. Protecting the environment, and our workers etc seems like common sense. To bad corporations and other "entity's" were given "personhood." is just one more weight dragging down the middle-class. Eventually it will be nothing but rich and poor. And since the poor make up the majority of the military and police etc, what do you think it will eventually lead to? But why should you care? You have a Lexus, lol.

Buy the way Guy, I drive a Mustang convertible. It was between that the Audi TT and at the time new Camero. The Audi just cost to much for having no convertible option. and the Camero was not convertible (at the time) and the interior was cramped. Mustangs rule, lol.

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Got pics of your Lexus?

PS Sorry not trying to derail thread or go off topics. He mentioned a car, my weakness.

I don't have a Lexus. I was using it as a statement (just like I'm not rich).

I'm just middle class. Got a Jeep not long ago though. It's fun.

I'm not disappearing, and the rich don't really affect me that much.

Gipper said:

I don't have a Lexus. I was using it as a statement (just like I'm not rich).

I'm just middle class. Got a Jeep not long ago though. It's fun.

I'm not disappearing, and the rich don't really affect me that much.

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Jeep's are good. They hold value well.

You may not be, but it is happening. The divide is growing wider between rich and poor every year, and not by a little. I would not expect it to affect you or I, maybe not even in my daughters lifetime. My granddaughter however will have to deal with it.

No they're not they work hard. IMagine dealing with a whole bunch of others peoples kids all day. You ever seen how much paperwork they bring home? Yikes

PrometheusBound said:

That's another brainwashed misconception about education. It is estimated that the average college graduate contributes half a million dollars to the economy (it would be much more if college graduates weren't so average). Plus their employers make all their excess wealth off their most talented employees. Flying in the face of reality, people keep insisting that education merely benefits the invidual and he must sacrifice for what is only his reward, as if he were majoriing in casino gambling (see the movie "21").

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It is his education and regardless of secondary benefits to the rest of us the fact remains the education is for HIM.

lpast said:

That does not answer my question.....Your trying to tell me that all states will pay the total price for private schools for those that cant afford it...

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I'm saying that government schools will still be open and accepting students, just as they are in Indiana, where there are vouchers. I'm also saying that private schools aren't going to walk away from free money, and will open up to accept students at the government rate, again, just as we have seen elsewhere.

Republican Govs wont even cover their citizens that dont have health insurance

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that is because we already have a program that does that. It is called "Medicaid".

Blackdog said:

You may not be, but it is happening. The divide is growing wider between rich and poor every year, and not by a little. I would not expect it to affect you or I, maybe not even in my daughters lifetime. My granddaughter however will have to deal with it.

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deal with what?

"Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?"

No, a teacher's compensation and work-load are definitely not the problem_

They're overprotected and unaccountable which destroys the incentive to perform their job productively_

This is due to a politically connected union which makes it impossible to weed out the bad teachers_

There are good teachers but unfortunately when you mix dirty water with clean water you get dirty water_

All Public Sector Unions should be outlawed and educators compensated by private sector standards_

Merit based pay is not necessary because without a union, meritless teachers would no longer be tolerated_

And all educators, whether they teach in The Hamptons or Harlem, should be held to the same standards_

Of course without parental support there will always be those students who will continue to fail as always_

Look everyone, I just solved the education problem in the United States, and it was easy__Common Sense_

cpwill said:

deal with what?

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Failing America.

Blackdog said:

Buy the way Guy, I drive a Mustang convertible. It was between that the Audi TT and at the time new Camero. The Audi just cost to much for having no convertible option. and the Camero was not convertible (at the time) and the interior was cramped. Mustangs rule, lol.

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Cool dog, does it have a really big motor and lots of gears?__Hey, can I drive it?

Please-Please, I pinky-swear to be be a good girl and not to grind the clutch! :nails

Empirica said:

"Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?"

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This is part of the problem.

Empirica said:

No, a teacher's compensation and work-load are definitely not the problem_

They're overprotected and unaccountable which destroys the incentive to perform their job productively_

This is due to a politically connected union which makes it impossible to weed out the bad teachers_

There are good teachers but unfortunately when you mix dirty water with clean water you get dirty water_

All Public Sector Unions should be outlawed and educators compensated by private sector standards_

Merit based pay is not necessary because without a union, meritless teachers would no longer be tolerated_

And all educators, whether they teach in The Hamptons or Harlem, should be held to the same standards_

Of course without parental support there will always be those students who will continue to fail as always_

Look everyone, I just solved the education problem in the United States, and it was easy__Common Sense_

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This would not be bad except for one problem... The tax base. Property taxes are where most public schools get funding. So if you teach in Harlem vs the Hampton's, your performance means little. This is also why poorer states are being hurt by "No child left behind."

You solution sounds good on paper minus the "political correct nonsense," and in the end that's about all it would be worth without addressing that.

No easy fix here.

Empirica said:

Cool dog, does it have a really big motor and lots of gears?__Hey, can I drive it?

Please-Please, I pinky-swear to be be a good girl and not to grind the clutch! :nails

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Well at 305 HP, yea she can move, lol. It is an auto though. I constantly play with my 500Watt stereo and subs, no time to shift, lol.

It's a black thing, lol.

Blackdog said:

This is part of the problem.

This would not be bad except for one problem... The tax base. Property taxes are where most public schools get funding. So if you teach in Harlem vs the Hampton's, your performance means little. This is also why poorer states are being hurt by "No child left behind."

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I'm not sure you read my post correctly Blacky__School funding and pay were not my primary issues_

I said teachers should be held to the same standards regardless of whether they teach in The Hamptons or Harlem_

So if you teach in Harlem vs the Hampton's, your performance means little.

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And I made allowances for this when I stated;
"Of course without parental support there will always be those students who will continue to fail as always"_

You solution sounds good on paper minus the "political correct nonsense," and in the end that's about all it would be worth without addressing that.

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And I never mentioned political correctness__I think maybe you mis-read "politically connected"_

No easy fix here.

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Let me explain to you what really needs to be fixed Blacky_

If I remember correctly, you have a habit of misinterpreting my posts but I realize it's not intentional_

Regardless, having to re-explain these things to you is a bit frustrating so I do wish you would try harder_

Have a nice day_

Henrin said:

It is his education and regardless of secondary benefits to the rest of us the fact remains the education is for HIM.

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So the rest of us, especially the corporations, can freeload off HIS sacrifice? With their jealous and resentful attitude, parasites shouldn't whine about not getting the best and the brightest, who have a reason to be proud and have too much pride to sacrifice themselves for their insulting and ungrateful beneficiaries. Any benefits to the individual graduate are cancelled out by his sacrifice and debt.

Empirica said:

I'm not sure you read my post correctly Blacky__School funding and pay were not my primary issues_

I said teachers should be held to the same standards regardless of whether they teach in The Hamptons or Harlem_

And I made allowances for this when I stated;
"Of course without parental support there will always be those students who will continue to fail as always"_

And I never mentioned political correctness__I think maybe you mis-read "politically connected"_

Let me explain to you what really needs to be fixed Blacky_

If I remember correctly, you have a habit of misinterpreting my posts but I realize it's not intentional_

Regardless, having to re-explain these things to you is a bit frustrating so I do wish you would try harder_

Have a nice day_

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#1 Don't ever call me Blacky ever again.
#2 I know exactly what you said and you finished with...

Look everyone, I just solved the education problem in the United States, and it was easy__Common Sense_ - Empirica

So you did not solve anything for the reasons I explained.

Now that we are clear God bless.

Blackdog said:

#1 Don't ever call me Blacky ever again.
#2 I know exactly what you said and you finished with...

Look everyone, I just solved the education problem in the United States, and it was easy__Common Sense_ - Empirica

So you did not solve anything for the reasons I explained.

Now that we are clear God bless.

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It is quite common for me to simplify names, no disrespect intended_

I suppose this is PC issue leftover from the days of white oppression_

In the future I'll try to be more considerate of your racial sensitivities_

I certainly wouldn't want to be in violation of any local Hate Crime rules_

This won't be easy considering Political Correctness is totally alien to me_

Empirica said:

It is quite common for me to simplify names, no disrespect intended_

I suppose this is PC issue leftover from the days of white oppression_

In the future I'll try to be more considerate of your racial sensitivities_

I certainly wouldn't want to be in violation of any local Hate Crime rules_

This won't be easy considering Political Correctness is totally alien to me_

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Has nothing to do with being sensitive. I don't call you "Empy" I call you "Empirica." "Blacky" is a damn dog's name, and you meant it as an insult, period. I am Blackdog, which is the English translation of a native American name given to me by my aunt.

Huge difference between being "PC" and just being a socially inept ass.

Now can we please move on.

Blackdog said:

Failing America.

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ah. well then rejoice! the end is quite possibly sooner than you imagine!

cpwill said:

ah. well then rejoice! the end is quite possibly sooner than you imagine!

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Hehehe, oh don't say that. Make me feel even worse. Figured I would be dead before then. :mrgreen:

zstep18 said:

In your opinon, do you believe teachers as a whole are overpaid and underworked? If so, why do you believe that? And where would you rate the teaching profession in terms of it being a respectful and appreciated profession?

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Some seem to be a bit overpaid but I don't think any of them are underworked, especially if they work in a public school.

Blackdog said:

This would not be bad except for one problem... The tax base. Property taxes are where most public schools get funding. So if you teach in Harlem vs the Hampton's, your performance means little. This is also why poorer states are being hurt by "No child left behind."

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I don't see this as being an issue, and it's yet another example I was discussing a couple days ago about additional privileges of those with expendable wealth (can't remember if it was with you or someone else, but I think it's with you).

One of the advantages of living in an area with a higher standard of living and property tax is that the schools are better (and better schools are also a reason why some property values are higher, making it a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario). I have no qualms with parents who can afford a better school district to take advantage of such. Poor schools don't have to necessarily have all the fringe benefits of a "rich" school. So an inner city school may not have a pool. It may not have new computers. It may not have a kickass racquetball court. It may not have a high school equivalent to Cowboys Stadium in Dallas. All of these may assist in education, but only in a minor facet. There is nothing wrong with working hard and elevating yourself through the system, even when you're at the lower end of the system. It builds character. The people who succeed in these conditions are the true warriors of society, and they can also assist in future generations of their family and heritage.

I see using a school's endowment as a sole determinant on the potential success of the student as a cop-out.

Gipper said:

I don't see this as being an issue, and it's yet another example I was discussing a couple days ago about additional privileges of those with expendable wealth (can't remember if it was with you or someone else, but I think it's with you).

One of the advantages of living in an area with a higher standard of living and property tax is that the schools are better (and better schools are also a reason why some property values are higher, making it a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario). I have no qualms with parents who can afford a better school district to take advantage of such. Poor schools don't have to necessarily have all the fringe benefits of a "rich" school. So an inner city school may not have a pool. It may not have new computers. It may not have a kickass racquetball court. It may not have a high school equivalent to Cowboys Stadium in Dallas. All of these may assist in education, but only in a minor facet. There is nothing wrong with working hard and elevating yourself through the system, even when you're at the lower end of the system. It builds character. The people who succeed in these conditions are the true warriors of society, and they can also assist in future generations of their family and heritage.

I see using a school's endowment as a sole determinant on the potential success of the student as a cop-out.

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You have got to remember I am a social liberal for the most part, all the "I am my brothers keeper" I take literally. I don't disagree because you are necessarily wrong (the fiscal conservative in me, lol) I disagree because we should provide a good education no matter where you live or what economic group you are part of. Just because someone is poor does not mean they are not smart or want a good education. If your school has no money for new computers or up to date history books etc. This should never be an issue for k-12.

It's to important. To deny a good education because they were born impoverished is no excuse. Under your plan the person who could cure cancer being poor would never get the chance because of circumstance out of his/her control.

PrometheusBound said:

So the rest of us, especially the corporations, can freeload off HIS sacrifice? With their jealous and resentful attitude, parasites shouldn't whine about not getting the best and the brightest, who have a reason to be proud and have too much pride to sacrifice themselves for their insulting and ungrateful beneficiaries. Any benefits to the individual graduate are cancelled out by his sacrifice and debt.

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That is just a lot of garbage. No one is freeloading of anyone that has an education. He gets the education to better himself and he then goes out and gets a job to better himself doing the job he went to school for. The individuals that hire him are bringing him in to assist in their business and together they are better off because of this arrangement. Can the arrangement be better? Sure, I guess, but again, no one is freeloading off another here.

Perhaps some people are ungrateful for the people that work for them, and perhaps that is a problem of sorts, but that is not required here. He can in return not be grateful for the opportunities that were given to him and like the business owner he is not required to be grateful.

Empirica said:

"Are Teachers Overpaid and Underworked?"

No, a teacher's compensation and work-load are definitely not the problem_

They're overprotected and unaccountable which destroys the incentive to perform their job productively_

This is due to a politically connected union which makes it impossible to weed out the bad teachers_

There are good teachers but unfortunately when you mix dirty water with clean water you get dirty water_

All Public Sector Unions should be outlawed and educators compensated by private sector standards_

Merit based pay is not necessary because without a union, meritless teachers would no longer be tolerated_

And all educators, whether they teach in The Hamptons or Harlem, should be held to the same standards_

Of course without parental support there will always be those students who will continue to fail as always_

Look everyone, I just solved the education problem in the United States, and it was easy__Common Sense_

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You should really try interviewing some public school teachers. You sound like most establishment Repubs spouting one-liners straight from the GOP Think Tank. The reality is, since the implementation of NCLB, teachers are being held more accountable than ever for student performance (or lack thereof). This means that, inevitably, we are also being held "overly accountable" for the parents' lack of participation in their children's education as well as many parents' apparent unwillingness or inability to motivate their own children to study or even to attend school on a regular basis.

Blackdog raises some good points, as many schools lack the resources to even adequately enforce their own attendance policies........and simply allowing the students to stop attending won't work either as part of the "mystery formula" for measuring a school's effectiveness involves tracking those students who originally enroll all the way through to graduation. Essentially the school is penalized for students who drop out or just stop attending on a regular basis. Is this fair?

Discipline is also a major issue. Try penalizing a student for using his/her I-phone during class to text or to play games and more often than not, you get angry parents who bitch and whine that they "spent hard-earned money to buy their precious that phone and WANT their kid to have it simply for the sake of convenience."

In closing, I will say that I, personally know of at least eight teachers in our school district alone, whose contracts were "not renewed" in the past year, directly as a result of their students' standardized test scores. In many parts of this nation, teachers' unions simply do not have the "throttlehold" on education that many would have you believe. I think you may have watched "Waiting on Superman" one to many times and allowed this obviously biased look at public schools to paint you a stereotypical view of what may or may not be occuring in the majority of our public education system. There IS indeed a bigger picture. You should broaden your horizon a bit. :shrug: