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Should we bomb Iran to prevent their getting nuclear weapons

Should we bomb Iran to prevent their getting nukes?

  • yes

    Votes: 9 18.8%
  • no

    Votes: 39 81.3%

  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .
Iraq no longer funds al-Qaida terrorists.

Iraq was Baathist.. AQ follows Sayeed Qubt.

Some blurb from ejits at the State Dept is not helpful.. But, the excuse for the protracted war in Iraq was to blame AQ.

Remember.. they said the war would be over in weeks, we would be welcomed as liberators and would pay for the war with Iraqi oil.

Guess nobody bothered to look at the British experience in Iraq and no one consulted with oil men. So... it was easy to shift the blame to AQ.
 
That's one of the main differences between conservatives and liberals, conservatives place a higher priority on spending for world hegemony than they do for their fellow citizens.

Hegemony can be accomplished in more than one way.. Didn't your grandaddy tell you there is more than one way to skin the cat?

The British model failed.. The neocon model was grossly counterproductive... but IMO its not a artisan issue... Its an information issue.. if you are playing to win.
 
The CIA and the Pentagon determined there was no al Qaeda/Saddam link.

Oh bravo.. Quick excuses for failed policies never hold up to serious scrutiny.
 
Not that I completely disagree with you, but do you think it would be a good idea to allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons?

I think we should continue diplomatic efforts towards keep them from developing nuclear weapons, and that may mean negotiating with Israel to disarm their nukes and for us to live up to our end of the NPT.


The do as I say, not as I do, approach has never been an effective negotiating position, with anyone.
 
I voted no because there was no option for F no.
 
Oh bravo.. Quick excuses for failed policies never hold up to serious scrutiny.

Yet it's absolutely true, there was never a single demonstrated link between Saddam's government and Al Qaeda. That didn't stop Bush from attempting to invent one, he asked his advisers to find a link between Saddam and bin Laden just days after the 9/11 attack, long before Iraq was even on the table. They couldn't find one, Bush wanted to go anyway.
 
How exactly has the world benefited from killing Saddam and a ten year war in Iraq?

Iraq now has re-entered the global world. It's people and it's resources are now again welcomed throughout the world. There is no longer a terrorist sponsoring regime that tortured, killed and used weapons of mass destruction against it's own people and was a threat to it's neighbors in charge of the country. Sodamned Insane, during his reign of terror sponsored, funded, trained and provide basing for PLO and other Palestinian terrorist which target Israel, it's civilians, not it's military. Organizations which also carried out attacks throughout Europe. Iraq is no longer a threat to commerce in the region and the world no longer has to expend resources to contain him.

How exactly does taking out a terror sponsoring state, that at least previously had weapons of mass destruction, not a good thing for the world? Heck, if the dumb ass would of let the inspectors in and allowed them to do their jobs properly, Bush never would of been able to justify the invasion in the first place. Of course, had he simply not tried to murder his own people in large quantity and acted civilly in the first place, there would of been no sanctions, no no-fly zones and no subsequent invasion.

Had we done the job properly and with a working plan, it would not have lead to 10 years of war. They got the invasion right, but Bush/Rumsfeld pretty much screwed the pooch afterwards. No good deed goes unpunished if don't follow through to the end.
 
You see the spending on welfare and medicaid as more useless than spending money on a war overseas, against a country that didn't pose any grave threat to us? I think we should protect our own people first before we try and protect others.

Welfare and other socialist like programs are a grave threat to our country. Look at what socialist like things have done to our economy. Jobs outsourced and companies abandoning our country. Medical cost and medical insurance has gone through the roof since the government started tinkering with it. Since Kennedy and his crowd first introduced modern Welfare and other socialist changes in the US and throughout all the changes after that, take a look at our economy, except for one fairly short period which was sustained by credit and doomed to failure, it has been constantly suppressed. Take a look at our crime rate and gang problems, centered mostly around welfare neighborhoods. Take a look at our soaring prison population since the start of welfare.

The welfare state costs us more annually than the two wars in the mideast ever did and if we actually got two barrels of oil from Iraq, that is more than welfare has ever given back to our society.

So how is spending money on the war less useless than spending on welfare, simple, the war actually helped someone, provided jobs and we got something back out of it, none of which can be said about welfare and the medicaid system which provides healthcare to welfare. Welfare and other socialistic institutions are a black hole sucking us dry and will eventually kill us if we don't start getting control of it.
 
So we go after Iran, which if you think Iraq caused us trouble, it will be nothing like the trouble that would be caused by Iran. Then we go after North Korea, which has nuclear weapons. Then we move onto other countries. And by that time, we will have more and more enemies.

No, this wouldn't be "simple".

A very large part of our trouble in Iraq was Iran. Without someone shipping them weapons and supporting an insurgency, which is what Iran was doing in Iraq, then it will be a lot less troublesome. Also, we developed new tactics. The smart move would of been to take Iran out first then Iraq. Iran is the last bastion of terror sponsorship in the region, now that Syria is in trouble and unable to do anything.

And NK having nukes is only a problem if we don't strike first, otherwise, they won't have them to use after the initial attack. Start with some B-2 bombers along with F-117s taking down their launch capability and key air defense systems, and it's not a big deal anymore. Assuming of course that some idiot at the pentagon trying to save money has actually left us some F-117s to use.
 
Why do people keep debating whatever the current excuse for war is? This plan was set in motion a long time ago and Obama the "Peace Prize" winner is continuing the plan. Remember Chavez handing a book to Obama? The title of that book was "Hegemony or Survival" and I think the government has made it's choice.



this thread has quite a few posts so if someone has already posted this apologies.
BTW it was an interesting book
 
Why do people keep debating whatever the current excuse for war is? This plan was set in motion a long time ago and Obama the "Peace Prize" winner is continuing the plan. Remember Chavez handing a book to Obama? The title of that book was "Hegemony or Survival" and I think the government has made it's choice.



this thread has quite a few posts so if someone has already posted this apologies.
BTW it was an interesting book


Sorry, cannot take you seriously. Anyone attempting to use Wesley Clark in a discussion of military operations and wars demonstrates from the start that they don't know jack about the subject. As a Military leader Wesley Clark was a contemptible joke.
 
I think we should continue diplomatic efforts towards keep them from developing nuclear weapons, and that may mean negotiating with Israel to disarm their nukes and for us to live up to our end of the NPT.

So, you don't want us to do it but it's ok if isreal does?


The do as I say, not as I do, approach has never been an effective negotiating position, with anyone.

You know what, wag your finger after they launch a nuke.
 
Sorry, cannot take you seriously. Anyone attempting to use Wesley Clark in a discussion of military operations and wars demonstrates from the start that they don't know jack about the subject. As a Military leader Wesley Clark was a contemptible joke.

What a great point dismiss the messenger

Wesley Kanne Clark, Sr. (born December 23, 1944) is a retired general of the United States Army. Graduating as valedictorian of the class of 1966 at West Point, he was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship to the University of Oxford where he obtained a degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics, and later graduated from the Command and General Staff College with a master's degree in military science. He spent 34 years in the Army and the Department of Defense, receiving many military decorations, several honorary knighthoods, and a Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Clark commanded Operation Allied Force in the Kosovo War during his term as the Supreme Allied Commander Europe of NATO from 1997 to 2000.

wiki

I don't know what I was thinking it's not like he has any credentials
 
What a great point dismiss the messenger



I don't know what I was thinking it's not like he has any credentials

He wasn't "the messenger" he was the originator of what he expressed. Personally I don't find that we had such a plan so surprising. We knew long before 9/11 who the primary sponsors of terrorism around the world were. If we plan to end terrorism and the states sponsoring it, then yeah, we had to have a plan. Of course, no plan ever survives contact with the enemy, so any time table was just pure speculation. Further,

"Today we focus on Afghanistan, but the battle is broader. Every nation has a choice to make. In this conflict, there is no neutral ground. If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents, they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril."--George W. Bush

The war on terror was never only about Al Queda, it was about all sponsors of terror and terrorist groups. Perhaps you and others may think that he was referring to only Al Queda, but in fact, it is not what he said. Nor was that the policy of his Administration.

As to his credentials, yeah, he has them, duh, he was a general. Just not a very good one. What you don't know and don't take in consideration is how he actually performed as a leader. He was a manager not a leader and a micro-manger at that. His leadership during the war on terror was almost identical to that of Major General Lloyd Fredendall during the battle of Kasserine Pass in Tunisia during WW II. The big difference is that Fredendall faced an enemy that could actually defeat him. Wesley Clark was a Clinton General, at the start of the Clinton regime, he wanted to cut the military in half in only 1 or 2 years vs a timed step down that G.H.Bush had initiated. When the Generals told him it was impossible to do that level of cuts and still maintain readiness and meet the specified wartime requirements, Clinton bypassed the normal promotion process in order to find Generals that would tell him it could be done. Following that time, Clinton always promoted and appointed Generals primarily based upon their political agreement with him and the ability to actually lead and anyone who placed actual military needs above Clinton's political wants were not promoted. Since a large part of officer promotions are sponsorship based, with this new focus, only those junior officers that expressed agreement were promoted up. This has been a problem since then and is still a problem today because other than Petraeus, Bush did not interfere with the officer promotion system. Petraeus had a working tactic that was effective in Iraq and so Rice brought him to the attention of Bush. Wesley Clark is the General who initiated the failed tactics in Iraq prior to Petraeus taking over. Unfortunately for us and the Army, Petraeus was never given a position worthy of his talents and allowed to "infect" the rest of the officer corps. As a protractor of Obama's policies, he of course was never allowed to have any more influence than was necessary and that only because he was actually effective and even then, he was effectively demoted and moved back to a lower command level after Obama took office.

Clark was in command in Kosovo, but due to the fact that Clinton wanted a zero casualty war, after all, he really didn't care about what happened, he only wanted people to focus on something other than Monica. Because of the zero casualty mentality, Clark did not effectively prosecute the war and many, many more refugees and ethnic Albanians died that did not need to. Of course there is a lot of controversy about the war and what our real objectives were.

Next he Commanded the US for Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan (From a Bunker in Tampa Fl). Him and his subordinate commanders used considerations of potential losses to limit which weapons systems were to be employed. As a result, the most affective airborne systems for supporting ground troops were not deployed. This was also due to some problems in the Air Force which was struggling to fund systems and deciding which to get rid of, however, Clark clearly knew of the systems and allowed it to happen. Undoubtedly, this caused greater casualties for US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, however just how many additional casualties were endured cannot be calculated and are only a matter of speculation.

For Operation Iraqi Freedom, he did move his bunker location to the middle east but still far out of danger. He only visited there after it was "secured".

Instead of employing decentralized Command and Control procedures he used centralized command and control with everything passing through his command post, thus cause timely delays in decisions. Previous US doctrine was for the commanders on the field of battle to make the decisions and report back when the could, not Clarks style of them having to ask permission before doing anything. Ironically, Clark was using the centralized command and control, the same as the Iraqi doctrine and cause of the collapse and disorganization of Iraqi forces when their command and control links were severed.
 
I think that we decided to invade seven countries based on speculation an astounding proclamation. However my original point was none of this is about Al Qeada, democracy or nukes it is to maintain hegemony over that part of the world period. Isn't Al Qeada leading the people trying to overun Syria now but we support them in this instance therefore who the bad guys are seems to change.
 
I think that we decided to invade seven countries based on speculation an astounding proclamation. However my original point was none of this is about Al Qeada, democracy or nukes it is to maintain hegemony over that part of the world period. Isn't Al Qeada leading the people trying to overun Syria now but we support them in this instance therefore who the bad guys are seems to change.

John: I wouldn't be surprised if there were some old AQ fighters in Syria, but I think for the mot part the rebels are disaffected Sunnis.

The real issue may be the Alawite and their total dominance in Syria.
 
I think that we decided to invade seven countries based on speculation an astounding proclamation. However my original point was none of this is about Al Qeada, democracy or nukes it is to maintain hegemony over that part of the world period. Isn't Al Qeada leading the people trying to overun Syria now but we support them in this instance therefore who the bad guys are seems to change.

That theory just might hold water if we actually had any hegemony in the region to begin with. Also, I pretty sure that Bush probably wouldn't even know what it means, much less how to employ it. No, he was fed up with terrorist and he wanted them gone. The same countries participating in state sponsored terrorism haven't changed in awhile. Wasn't real hard to come up with a list.

Syria was perhaps the most active of them at the time of Iraqi Freedom
Lebanon right behind them, but then, current gov there is pretty much an extension of Syria.
Iran would be the next active.
Libya was not very active at all, a little
Somalia, hard to take down a government that doesn't exists.
Sudan, yeah, should of been higher on the list.

The correct order should of been Iran, Syria, Sudan, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon (assuming taking out Syria didn't actually change things there first) and Somalia last. Maybe his priorities on which to do when was a bit screwed up, but cannot say that taking out any of them at the time would actually of been "wrong". That time line actually only works if all we do is invade and then pull out without any reconstruction. Rather a poor plan if that is what they actually thought we could do.

I also find it strange that he brings up the Al Queda link to Iraq. As a General that high up, he should of known what the Administrations policies/stance were. As pointed out, it was never Al Queda only, but any state sponsor of terrorism.
 
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Welfare and other socialist like programs are a grave threat to our country. Look at what socialist like things have done to our economy. Jobs outsourced and companies abandoning our country. Medical cost and medical insurance has gone through the roof since the government started tinkering with it. Since Kennedy and his crowd first introduced modern Welfare and other socialist changes in the US and throughout all the changes after that, take a look at our economy, except for one fairly short period which was sustained by credit and doomed to failure, it has been constantly suppressed. Take a look at our crime rate and gang problems, centered mostly around welfare neighborhoods. Take a look at our soaring prison population since the start of welfare.

The welfare state costs us more annually than the two wars in the mideast ever did and if we actually got two barrels of oil from Iraq, that is more than welfare has ever given back to our society.

So how is spending money on the war less useless than spending on welfare, simple, the war actually helped someone, provided jobs and we got something back out of it, none of which can be said about welfare and the medicaid system which provides healthcare to welfare. Welfare and other socialistic institutions are a black hole sucking us dry and will eventually kill us if we don't start getting control of it.

Welfare is a part of any mixed economy. Stating that it's socialist over and over again doesn't make it socialist. And you're blaming crime and overcrowded prisons on welfare? That's crazy. These "welfare neighborhoods" are places of POVERTY. If you want to blame anything, blame POVERTY for crime and overcrowded prison populations.

When you get old, don't collect any Social Security or any government assistance.
 
Welfare is a part of any mixed economy. Stating that it's socialist over and over again doesn't make it socialist. And you're blaming crime and overcrowded prisons on welfare? That's crazy. These "welfare neighborhoods" are places of POVERTY. If you want to blame anything, blame POVERTY for crime and overcrowded prison populations.

When you get old, don't collect any Social Security or any government assistance.

Actually I won't really ever collect Social Security. Since I have a government retirement, it is reduced by the amount that Social Security pays. To them it looks like I am getting paid it, to me it is transparent.

And yes, I am saying that welfare is part of the cause. Normal human behavior (in modern society) is to work at a job get paid to support yourself. Welfare allows people to not work, but still get paid to support themselves. In any society were you allow people receive pay without labor but require labor for others to earn their pay, the system will eventually fail, always. The correct and proper way would be for people who need government assistance, welfare, to have to also perform some labor to receive it. Otherwise, in system like ours, you start teaching people that they do not have to perform labor but can get paid anyways, a number of them will choose to perform no labor at all. As taxes and other factors needed to support those not performing labor increase, the number needing assistance will increase and eventually you run out of money for the system. Also, your bottom tier, undesirable labor will start having shortages being filled. This is evident today in some jobs already. Further, the children raised by parents who do not work but get paid by the government only learn to depend on the government and never learn good job habits, then they end up on the system themselves. It is not uncommon today to find families who are now on their 3-4th generation that has been on welfare. To make matters worse, we not only do not require labor to receive pay, but we increase pay if they have children. There are many, many welfare children who were born only so their mothers could get a larger check. These children are generally raised without discipline, without love and their parents don't care about their education or training. These are also the children that cause major disruptions in the education system. While Poverty does in general raise crime rates, we have a disproportionate amount of crime compared to our poverty. When you combine poverty with the lack of parental guidance and poor examples of fitting into society, then we get the gangs and the major crime problems we see in our inner cities. There are impoverished nations throughout the world that do not have our level of crime, gang violence and teen pregnancy rates. They also do not have our welfare system.
 
Paragraphs are our friend and make a post readable.
 
Paragraphs are our friend and make a post readable.

I max scored most everything on the achievement tests except for English. Pretty much a genius except that category, then the guy in the corner drooling on himself probably scored higher. Never really learned good grammar and never really cared enough to.
 
I max scored most everything on the achievement tests except for English. Pretty much a genius except that category, then the guy in the corner drooling on himself probably scored higher. Never really learned good grammar and never really cared enough to.

I am not criticizing your grammar.. just make paragraphs.. If you are going to the time and trouble to think this thru and write... make it readable.
 
That is how Bin Laden predicted the US would be defeated:

"In 2004, Bin Laden released a tape to Al-Jazeera where the former head of Al Qaeda laid out the purpose of the 9/11 attacks, and the organization’s goals. “We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah,” Bin Laden said."

Even in Death, Did Osama Bin Laden Win? - Forbes

When observing the decline and fall of a nation, it is more revealing to find out what is not talked about, because the opinions publicly expressed should have led to solutions, not decline and fall. As America slowly spirals into chaos and impotence, no one with a professional public forum is immune from the decadent thinking enough to point out that the jihadist economic destruction has been entirely from OPEC, which has drained trillions of dollars out of our economy by colluding to impose a price for oil that is a hundred times what it is worth. Our continual cowardice in not treating the growing and vicious threat from OPEC as an enemy attack that must be answered by total victory has eaten away at our drive to reverse our collapsing national condition.
 
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