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If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody[W:56]

If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody rights?


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Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Yes, I do, I have no reason to doubt her.

Why do you think she isn't believable?
Somebody in another forum gave me a heads up about her.

She's had a dog in the fight, child custody, so she had a motive to lie.

It was he said/she said case and we've only heard the accusers side of the story. But we do know that she persued a charge of rape but the accused was not convicted of the charge.

She doesn't ever name her alleged rapist in her highly publicized articles. Why not? Is she afraid of losing a civil suit for slander?

In her open letter to Congressman Akin, just before she threatens to "fight to extinguish your inflammatory statements" she makes this snide remark...

"After all, why pass a law restricting the parental rights of men who father through rape when too many legislators argue (without any reliance on science, fact, or experience) that “legitimately raped” woman never would decide to raise a child from that crime? Why pass a law when raped women cannot get pregnant from their rapes?"

And of course that's ridiculous. No legislators are arguing that women who are raped would never decide to raise the child and none are arguing that women cannot get pregnant from their rapes. Akin certainly never said that, implied that, or insinuated that in any way shape or form.

So she's not being truthful when she tries to misrepresent what Akin said in his allegedly "inflammitory statement" that she is expressing so much faux outrage about. That tells me that she has no moral compunction against lying to get what she wants. It says something about her character and credibility.

She exhudes the primary trait of a dishonest person. That is, she is willing to lie and decieve to get what she wants. Therefore in my judgement that gives me serious doubts about her credibility. And in a purely he said/she said case credibility means everything.

That's why I am very skeptical of her claim that she was raped.
 
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Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Somebody in another forum gave me a heads up about her.

She's had a dog in the fight, child custody, so she had a motive to lie.

It was he said/she said case and we've only heard the accusers side of the story. But we do know that she persued a charge of rape but the accused was not convicted of the charge.

She doesn't ever name her alleged rapist in her highly publicized articles. Why not? Is she afraid of losing a civil suit for slander?

In her open letter to Congressman Akin, just before she threatens to "fight to extinguish your inflammatory statements" she makes this snide remark...

"After all, why pass a law restricting the parental rights of men who father through rape when too many legislators argue (without any reliance on science, fact, or experience) that “legitimately raped” woman never would decide to raise a child from that crime? Why pass a law when raped women cannot get pregnant from their rapes?"

And of course that's ridiculous. No legislators are arguing that women who are raped would never decide to raise the child and none are arguing that women cannot get pregnant from their rapes. Akin certainly never said that, implied that, or insinuated that in any way shape or form.

So she's not being truthful when she tries to misrepresent what Akin said in his "inflammitory statement" that she is expressing so much faux outrage about. That tells me that she has no moral compunction against lying to get what she wants. It says something about her character and credibility.

She exhudes the primary trait of a dishonest person. That is, she is willing to lie and decieve to get what she wants. Therefore in my judgement that gives me serious doubts about her credibility. And in a purely he said/she said case credibility means everything.

That's why I am very skeptical of her claim that she was raped.

You're letting your partisanship cloud your judgment.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Stay and fight. Deal if she has too. Fight to change the law later so others will have a better chance. Running and living in fear is not a good environment for children to grow up either.

I was talking about reality, not idealism. We still have legislators who think marital rape is some made up "feminazi" nonsense ffs.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Which is besides the point. If that someone didn't commit the crime, then the punishment should not be lower but none, therefore in considering the punishment, we ought to consider what is fitting for the crime, not for the those who are wrongly convicted.

Except those who are wrong convicted must still face those punishments. Which is a great injustice to them.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

You're letting your partisanship cloud your judgment.
I think that because you cannot argue against any of the points I made, you are resorting to accusing me of partisanship.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Except those who are wrong convicted must still face those punishments. Which is a great injustice to them.

No justice system is perfect. There are always going to be those who are wrongly convicted. What would your suggestion be?
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

I think that because you cannot argue against any of the points I made, you are resorting to accusing me of partisanship.

You haven't made any points. Only assumptions. ;)
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Somebody in another forum gave me a heads up about her.

She's had a dog in the fight, child custody, so she had a motive to lie.

It was he said/she said case and we've only heard the accusers side of the story. But we do know that she persued a charge of rape but the accused was not convicted of the charge.

She doesn't ever name her alleged rapist in her highly publicized articles. Why not? Is she afraid of losing a civil suit for slander?

In her open letter to Congressman Akin, just before she threatens to "fight to extinguish your inflammatory statements" she makes this snide remark...

"After all, why pass a law restricting the parental rights of men who father through rape when too many legislators argue (without any reliance on science, fact, or experience) that “legitimately raped” woman never would decide to raise a child from that crime? Why pass a law when raped women cannot get pregnant from their rapes?"

And of course that's ridiculous. No legislators are arguing that women who are raped would never decide to raise the child and none are arguing that women cannot get pregnant from their rapes. Akin certainly never said that, implied that, or insinuated that in any way shape or form.

So she's not being truthful when she tries to misrepresent what Akin said in his allegedly "inflammitory statement" that she is expressing so much faux outrage about. That tells me that she has no moral compunction against lying to get what she wants. It says something about her character and credibility.

She exhudes the primary trait of a dishonest person. That is, she is willing to lie and decieve to get what she wants. Therefore in my judgement that gives me serious doubts about her credibility. And in a purely he said/she said case credibility means everything.

That's why I am very skeptical of her claim that she was raped.


Be skeptical if you wish. You present no evidence to me that she is lying, so I will take her at her word in the absence of proof.


I don't want to derail the thread discussing Akin's comments, so I'll stop there.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

No justice system is perfect. There are always going to be those who are wrongly convicted. What would your suggestion be?

I have several.

One is to make forensic units an agency totally independent from police departments or prosecutors' offices. That way evidence that way the collection and analysis of evidence won't be biased towards the government just to get a conviction.

Also, I think that prosecutors who convict someone who was later found innocent should automatically be investigated for potential wrongdoing and face criminal charges should that investigation merit it. After all, prosecutors seeking a wrongful conviction means that the criminal who did do it has gone free to continue those crimes, which is a danger to the safety of the public.

Also, in capital cases, I don't think potential jurors should be disqualified for their opinion on the death penalty. The Constitution guarantees a jury of one peers, and if some peers think that the death penalty is too harsh a penalty for a crime then they should be allowed to sit on a jury and say so.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

I have several. One is to make forensic units an agency totally independent from police departments or prosecutors' offices. That way evidence that way the collection and analysis of evidence won't be biased towards the government just to get a conviction.

I think this is an excellent idea! :) I'm sure there would be a few wrongful convictions still, but it would help!

Also, I think that prosecutors who convict someone who was later found innocent should automatically be investigated for potential wrongdoing and face criminal charges should that investigation merit it. After all, prosecutors seeking a wrongful conviction means that the criminal who did do it has gone free to continue those crimes, which is a danger to the safety of the public.

If the prosecutor is actively involved in a conspiracy, then I would totally agree.

Also, in capital cases, I don't think potential jurors should be disqualified for their opinion on the death penalty. The Constitution guarantees a jury of one peers, and if some peers think that the death penalty is too harsh a penalty for a crime then they should be allowed to sit on a jury and say so.

Although I personally don't agree with the DP, that is a separate trial. I believe the defendant is tried for guilt first, and the death penalty trial is a separate trial. I could be wrong in that it could vary from state to state which have the DP. Where the DP is legal though, it kind of doesn't make sense to have people on the jury who do not believe in it.
 
Now, I am thoroughly disgusted. I am disgusted because I don't think a woman should not be forced to interact with her rapist for the rest of her life.

How about statutory rape? Or are you of the opinion that "rape is rape"?
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Not just no but hell no...........I believe if a man rapes a woman he should be executed.............

There's a huge problem with this line of thinking.

Numerous times there have been men who were wrongly accused of rape. I don't think I need to continue for you get where I'm going with that.
 
if a man fathers a child through rape he should be castrated.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Be skeptical if you wish. You present no evidence to me that she is lying, so I will take her at her word in the absence of proof.
As I've already pointed out, this was a he said/she said case and he was not convicted.

Could you explain why are you so quick to take her word over his word?

Does he have any credibility issues that you know of? Or what?
 
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How about statutory rape? Or are you of the opinion that "rape is rape"?
Someone mentioned that earlier in the thread and it was something I hadn't considered when writing the OP. I think that the legal default in all states should be that rapists don't have any rights regarding their children, but that the woman can petition the courts to let the father have rights which she would do in cases of statutory rape, particularly if the it's an 19/16 year old dating type situation.
 
if a man fathers a child through rape he should be castrated.

Meh, bring back hard labor, and prison work programs. Force them to actually do something for society, instead of taking from it. Of course, with the general feelings prisoners have toward sex offenders, and all that heavy equipment...
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Although I personally don't agree with the DP, that is a separate trial. I believe the defendant is tried for guilt first, and the death penalty trial is a separate trial. I could be wrong in that it could vary from state to state which have the DP. Where the DP is legal though, it kind of doesn't make sense to have people on the jury who do not believe in it.

No, there's one trial.

What happens, though, is that the jurors who decide guilt can then recommend sentencing. That includes the death penalty.

And studies have shown that people who favor the death penalty are many more times likely to decide an accused person guilty than not.

Therefore, death penalty juries are inherently likely to decide that an accused person is guilty anyways. Which is wrong consider the finality of the death sentence.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

No, there's one trial.

What happens, though, is that the jurors who decide guilt can then recommend sentencing. That includes the death penalty.

And studies have shown that people who favor the death penalty are many more times likely to decide an accused person guilty than not.

Therefore, death penalty juries are inherently likely to decide that an accused person is guilty anyways. Which is wrong consider the finality of the death sentence.

Well, I found this which states there are two separate trials. I don't know about juror recommendations.


What makes a death penalty case different from other criminal cases? - Death Penalty - ProCon.org
Richard C. Dieter, MS, JD, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center, in Feb. 7, 2007 testimony to the Judiciary Committee of the Colorado State House of Representatives regarding "House Bill 1094 - Costs of the Death Penalty and Related Issues," stated:
"Everything that is needed for an ordinary trial is needed for a death penalty case, only more so:
• More pre-trial time will be needed to prepare: cases typically take a year to come to trial more pre-trial motions will be filed and answered.
• More experts will be hired.
• Twice as many attorneys will be appointed for the defense, and a comparable team for the prosecution.
• Jurors will have to be individually quizzed on their views about the death penalty, and they are more likely to be sequestered.
Two trials instead of one will be conducted: one for guilt and one for punishment.
• The trial will be longer: a cost study at Duke University (752KB) estimated that death penalty trials take 3 to 5 times longer than typical murder trials
• And then will come a series of appeals during which the inmates are held in the high security of death row."
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

This was a he said/she said case and he was not convicted.

So why do you take her word over his word?

Does he have any credibility issues that you know of?

I have no reason not to take her at her word. You have not presented any evidence that I should not.

Her article was published in the Georgetown Law Journal and therefore I think they believe her claims have credibility since it would not be good for them to tarnish their reputation by distributing work written by a woman making potentially false claims.
 
Re: If a man fathers a child through rape, should he have visitation or custody right

Well, I found this which states there are two separate trials. I don't know about juror recommendations.


What makes a death penalty case different from other criminal cases? - Death Penalty - ProCon.org
Richard C. Dieter, MS, JD, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center, in Feb. 7, 2007 testimony to the Judiciary Committee of the Colorado State House of Representatives regarding "House Bill 1094 - Costs of the Death Penalty and Related Issues," stated:
"Everything that is needed for an ordinary trial is needed for a death penalty case, only more so:
• More pre-trial time will be needed to prepare: cases typically take a year to come to trial more pre-trial motions will be filed and answered.
• More experts will be hired.
• Twice as many attorneys will be appointed for the defense, and a comparable team for the prosecution.
• Jurors will have to be individually quizzed on their views about the death penalty, and they are more likely to be sequestered.
Two trials instead of one will be conducted: one for guilt and one for punishment.
• The trial will be longer: a cost study at Duke University (752KB) estimated that death penalty trials take 3 to 5 times longer than typical murder trials
• And then will come a series of appeals during which the inmates are held in the high security of death row."

Ah, my bad thhen.

Even so, my point stands - jurors can be disqualified from capital cases if they don't believe in the death penalty, and jurors who favor the death penalty are more likely to push for it to be used in sentencing.
 
Someone mentioned that earlier in the thread and it was something I hadn't considered when writing the OP. I think that the legal default in all states should be that rapists don't have any rights regarding their children, but that the woman can petition the courts to let the father have rights which she would do in cases of statutory rape, particularly if the it's an 19/16 year old dating type situation.

A couple of problems with that. One is that the child is entitled to both parents, and it doesn't necessarily lose that right just because one parent is a criminal and that has nothing to do with the rights of the mother. Children are persons in their own right, not just accessories of the mother. Another problem is: Does "not having any rights regarding their children" as you put it absolve him of child support obligations? And again, if so, then what about the rights of the child whose best interest it is not to be raised in poverty if it can be avoided? Family law generally gives fathers who pay support certain rights to access unless there's a really good reason not to, granted that him being a violent sociopath would be a good reason not to.

If one focuses exclusively on the mother and her rights then it makes sense to have a one size fits all approach. Considering the rights of the child, though, suggests that these should be taken case by case.
 
A couple of problems with that. One is that the child is entitled to both parents, and it doesn't necessarily lose that right just because one parent is a criminal and that has nothing to do with the rights of the mother. Children are persons in their own right, not just accessories of the mother. Another problem is: Does "not having any rights regarding their children" as you put it absolve him of child support obligations? And again, if so, then what about the rights of the child whose best interest it is not to be raised in poverty if it can be avoided? Family law generally gives fathers who pay support certain rights to access unless there's a really good reason not to, granted that him being a violent sociopath would be a good reason not to.

If one focuses exclusively on the mother and her rights then it makes sense to have a one size fits all approach. Considering the rights of the child, though, suggests that these should be taken case by case.

If it was forcible rape, then I have to disagree. He impregnated a woman against her will and attacked her. In this situation, it should be left to the mother's discretion, especially since babies are not capable of making good decisions for themselves and the mother is responsible for the child. As far as child support, yeah, he should have to pay child support. Nobody asked him to go around raping women. That should be just another consequence for his actions. Perhaps he won't rape women anymore.
 
A couple of problems with that. One is that the child is entitled to both parents, and it doesn't necessarily lose that right just because one parent is a criminal and that has nothing to do with the rights of the mother. Children are persons in their own right, not just accessories of the mother.
I don't believe that a child is "entitled to both parents." I don't believe entitlement factors into the relationship a child has with their parents. A child either has both, one or none in their life and which, if either, parent they have is determined by either the parent or society depending on the circumstances and laws in place.

Another problem is: Does "not having any rights regarding their children" as you put it absolve him of child support obligations? And again, if so, then what about the rights of the child whose best interest it is not to be raised in poverty if it can be avoided? Family law generally gives fathers who pay support certain rights to access unless there's a really good reason not to, granted that him being a violent sociopath would be a good reason not to.
It wouldn't necessarily absolve him of child support. That would depend on the court's decision or whether or not a mother's petition for child support is accepted by the court. It could be argued that if the father can't see the kid, he shouldn't have to pay support, but I don't buy that argument.

If one focuses exclusively on the mother and her rights then it makes sense to have a one size fits all approach. Considering the rights of the child, though, suggests that these should be taken case by case.
Eh, I don't think the rights of the child factor into whether or not their rapist father should have access to them. Parents have to make decisions for their children because children, for the most part, can't make them for themselves. As far as I'm concerned, whether or not a kid has contact with their rapist father is a decision that should be left to the mother or guardian.
 
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