Which right holds sway?

Jerry said:

What's next? I don't know, curly-Q light-bulbs, maybe.

Oh wait they already did that one....

If you folks are so worried about your rights, then stop banning firearms. It's crazy, all you have to do is *choose* to allow firearms and all this legal action goes away. You wouldn't have to worry about future legal action or infringements if you weren't already infringing on others. So if you lose more rights in the long run, poetic justice imo. You got what was coming to you.

A prudent and reasonable person would cut their losses and allow firearms so as to avoid these long-term ramification you speak of, but I guess since you aren't changing you mind that you don't truly care.

Click to expand...

I have no sign banning anything from my place of business. Well I do have a no smoking sign on gate. And I do choose to let certain people have guns on my property. But the key here is that I have the right choose. You do not have the right to choose what is allowed on my property period. End of story unless you show up and try to use laws to force me to go along woith your wants. Then we have a battle that I intend to win to save mine and your Constitutional right to own private property.

Jerry said:

You just invalidated your own claims for needing a gun-free property since you just claimed that I already have tools that could be just as deadly.

Click to expand...

Bwahaha that does not work, trying to copy me without being logical.

Jerry said:

Smoking is not comparable to lawful possession of a firearm. I don't know why you would even think to make the comparison. There is no amendment protecting smoking. Smoking can't be used as a form of self defense. I have no idea how I would stop the couple rabid dogs I'v had to shoot in the past, with a cigarette. I have no idea how a tobacco pipe could be used to thwart off an assault from the ex-wife's angry gang-banger boyfriend.

As I said, if I'm there as a social guest, I would leave. If I'm there as an employee, then the trick is to not get caught.

So if you want to keep going down the 'it's my house' bumper-sticker sloganeering, fine, it's your house, so just don't ever open it to employees or the public. No problem.

Click to expand...

Jerry the comparison as I see it...a persons home is their castle...you either respect their requests or stay out of it....

FreedomFromAll said:

I have no sign banning anything from my place of business. Well I do have a no smoking sign on gate. And I do choose to let certain people have guns on my property. But the key here is that I have the right choose. You do not have the right to choose what is allowed on my property period. End of story unless you show up and try to use laws to force me to go along woith your wants. Then we have a battle that I intend to win to save mine and your Constitutional right to own private property.

Click to expand...

Fine, accepted, now please answer my questions. They were posed in good-faith and I would appreciate honest answers.

lpast said:

Jerry the comparison as I see it...a persons home is their castle...you either respect their requests or stay out of it....

Click to expand...

More sloganeering. I was hoping you would have something of substance to add. I would like to explore the logic under the slogan. Reiterating the slogan doesn't help clarify the slogan.

Jerry said:

I've been on this and a couple other forums recently, trying to wrap my mind around the idea that a snub .38 is a threat, but all the other tools I bring into someone's house is ok. I mean, if I wanted to harm a family, I wouldn't need a firearm. Just with the tools in my trunk I could subdue a family of 4 and make an armature SAW film. A snub .38 is....nothing. A homeowner wouldn't think twice if they saw me assemble an air-powered nail gun. they might give me a weird look when I duct-tape the barrel safety down, but will certainly bleed when I hold down the trigger and nails come flying out with the speed of a machine gun.

Click to expand...

The difference is range. While you could hypothetically subdue a family of four and take a skill saw to them, you have to get in close for it. You can't kill someone from a distance with a ramset or a nailgun. That ****'s limited to the movies. Hell, I pulled back the safety on a hitachi nailgun once and shot a full clip of 16 pennies at a giant friggin' rat that was in the basement of a job I was doing and didn't even pierce it's skin from only about 10 feet away. Scared it away, at least. The problem is that the nails start flipping immediately after they leave the gun. There's no rifling, see.

Hell, I took a nail straight through my hand once. Stupid carelessness on my part, but a direct hit to the part between my left thumb and forefinger. The end came out near the base of my ring finger. Didn't even break the bone. Instead it ricocheted off of the bone and slid across my palm instead. Severed the nerve to my index finger, which required surgery, but I could have gotten away with not even going to the doctor if I was willing to live without any feeling at all in my finger for the rest of my life (I have partial feeling now).

If you taped down the safety, you probably wouldn't do much damage at all. Actually, with some guns you don't even need to tape it down. The hitachi's that I used to use could have been shot with one hand if you knew how to hold the part of the safety that allows the trigger to work while operating the trigger. It was easy to do, and I could show you in two seconds if we had the gun in front of us, but I don't know how to explain it easily in words. For ****s and giggles sometimes we'd have shooting competitions with them during coffee break, shooting cans and ****. You'd be surprised how hard it was to even pierce an empty aluminum can with one of them from any distance. Like I said, they flip. You'd have to get lucky by having it flip to the point right as it reached the can in order to pierce it.

Anyway, my point is at any distance over 10-15 feet, you'd probably sting anyone you shot at more than wound them, and you probably wouldn't draw blood more often than not. That's provided you even hit them from that distance, because, again, they are far from accurate.

Whereas a .38 snub will do a ****ton of damage from 10-15 feet. Overall, it's pretty damned easy to see why people would be more nervous of a gun in their home than carpentry tools, IMO. Frankly, I find it odd that you are a carpenter and a gun owner who cannot see why people might think that way. If someone was completely clueless about the realistic amount of damage a nailgun could inflict from 10 feet away (which ain't all that much different from the damage a bb gun could inflict from that distance) compared to a realistic amount of damage a .38 could inflict from 10 feet away, I could see thinking they are comparable, buit not someone who has experience with both tools.

You could kill a family of four in less than a minute with a .38 from about 10 feet away. You'd have extreme difficulty killing just one person from that distance with a nail gun if you shot at them for hours, if not days.

On top of that, if you are coming into a person's home to perform a specific task, you are assumed to be competent in that field. You do not deserve the assumption of competence in any other realm, though, and that includes the realm of firearms safety. Nor should anyone be expected to simply accept your word that you are competent in that regard.

Tucker Case said:

On top of that, if you are coming into a person's home to perform a specific task, you are assumed to be competent in that field. You do not deserve the assumption of competence in any other realm, though, and that includes the realm of firearms safety. Nor should anyone be expected to simply accept your word that you are competent in that regard.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't have a problem showing my CCW and military ID on-demand to any homeowner.

Jerry said:

More sloganeering. I was hoping you would have something of substance to add. I would like to explore the logic under the slogan. Reiterating the slogan doesn't help clarify the slogan.

Click to expand...

Jerry Im sorry you think its a slogan...but let me try and make this clearer....You try to come in my home with something I dont want you to bring...and you will be confronted with one or more of my guns.....Is that a slogan ?....I think not...its my DEMAND for anyone wanting to come in my house....I cant get any clearer and unsloganed than that for ya

Jerry said:

I wouldn't have a problem showing my CCW and military ID on-demand to any homeowner.

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that that's enough to warrant an assumption of competence. Wasn't there a story just a few months ago about a cop carelessly leaving a loaded gun within reach of a child who then shot another kid with that gun? And around the same time, a dude with a CCW (I'm not sure if he had military experience) left his loaded gun within reach of a toddler who then shot himself.

Tools that are carelessly left about are dangerous, and plenty of contractors are capable of doing that, but they are less dangerous than a loaded gun which is carelessly left about for a few reasons. First, they just aren't nearly as lethal. They aren't designed to be, and often they are designed with safety (as in preventing harm to self and others) as a primary concern. Next, tools are typically way heavier than a gun, meaning it's less likely that a child can do serious damage with them than they could with a gun (but obviously not impossible, far from it in fact. Anyone who leaves any construction tool around carelessly is still being negligent).

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with some people carrying in my home. My best friend carries in my house all the time. I know he's not an idiot. I know some other people who are equally qualified legally to carry that I'd never want inside of my house with a gun because I know they are idiots. The fact that they happen to be cops doesn't matter to me, because I know they are idiots and I don't want any idiot in my house with a gun. It also means that I know that even idiots can be legally qualified to carry, so I don't really see a legal qualification to carry as a reason to assume competence.

lpast said:

Jerry Im sorry you think its a slogan...but let me try and make this clearer....You try to come in my home with something I dont want you to bring...and you will be confronted with one or more of my guns.....Is that a slogan ?....I think not...its my DEMAND for anyone wanting to come in my house....I cant get any clearer and unsloganed than that for ya

Click to expand...

Really? So you're gona pull your gun on me if you don't like my droid? If you tell me "no DeWalt" and I don't know what else to do, so I work on the project with my DeWalt tools, you're going to threaten my life?

Wow.

If you pull a gun on an otherwise peaceful visitor (which the typical contractor is) just because they have a holstered pistol, even if you are in a Castle Doctrine state, you are going to prison.

So no, you haven't clarified anything.

Jerry said:

Really? So you're gona pull your gun on me if you don't like my droid? If you tell me "no DeWalt" and I don't know what else to do, so I work on the project with my DeWalt tools, you're going to threaten my life?

Wow.

If you pull a gun on an otherwise peaceful visitor (which the typical contractor is) just because they have a holstered pistol, even if you are in a Castle Doctrine state, you are going to prison.

So no, you haven't clarified anything.

Click to expand...

No jerry were talking about you bringing guns in my house if I ask you not too....why do you keep trying to put all extraneous nonesense into it buddy....To me this is pretty simplified...dont come in my fricken house If I dont want you too...

Tucker Case said:

I'm not convinced that that's enough to warrant an assumption of competence. Wasn't there a story just a few months ago about a cop carelessly leaving a loaded gun within reach of a child who then shot another kid with that gun? And around the same time, a dude with a CCW (I'm not sure if he had military experience) left his loaded gun within reach of a toddler who then shot himself.

Tools that are carelessly left about are dangerous, and plenty of contractors are capable of doing that, but they are less dangerous than a loaded gun which is carelessly left about for a few reasons. First, they just aren't nearly as lethal. They aren't designed to be, and often they are designed with safety (as in preventing harm to self and others) as a primary concern. Next, tools are typically way heavier than a gun, meaning it's less likely that a child can do serious damage with them than they could with a gun (but obviously not impossible, far from it in fact. Anyone who leaves any construction tool around carelessly is still being negligent).

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with some people carrying in my home. My best friend carries in my house all the time. I know he's not an idiot. I know some other people who are equally qualified legally to carry that I'd never want inside of my house with a gun because I know they are idiots. The fact that they happen to be cops doesn't matter to me, because I know they are idiots and I don't want any idiot in my house with a gun. It also means that I know that even idiots can be legally qualified to carry, so I don't really see a legal qualification to carry as a reason to assume competence.

Click to expand...

I feel what you're saying about some legal carriers being idiots. I have to enter their homes to work. If anything that's just more reason for me to carry. However, you're making a general argument about what's required to get a CCW, not carrying while on the job specifically.

So, this is where I start to get frustrated. No one is talking about a "left about" loaded gun. I'm advocating concealed carry. Not walking into someone's house and leaving a gun on the bench. I'm talking about a pistol which stays in it's holster, on my person, at all times, unless the gravest extreme arises. That's what "concealed carry" means.

The pistol is not being used, the tools are. Therefore the homeowner has more to worry about from the tools, supplies, etc, then a gun.

The topical homeowner undergoing a construction project has a hell of a lot more to fear from a car accident on the way home from Lowe's, falling objects or worn electrical cords, then any firearm. Applying your concern to that, a homeowner might want some kind of credential that I'm a safe worker. I keep my OSHA-10Hr card and a couple industry club memberships in my wallet for that reason. (for those who don't know, industry clubs love holding regular safety and awareness classes and certification os all sorts, and workers love to sport stickers and other flair on their hardhats or, occasionally, on their tool belt showing achievement).

You want some proof? I can give you proof. No problem. I'm proud of it so why would I pass up an opportunity to show off?

Jerry said:

Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? You so much as notice a weapon on me, and you imedialty pull yours? And you want to lecture me on respect? HA!

Click to expand...

In that scenario; you are doing some work in MY house. I don’t know you, I don’t fully trust you, and I was not made aware of you carrying a weapon before you entered MY property. I would have no way of knowing what your intentions are.

To protect myself and all others that are under my protection on my property; OH YES I would take you down fast and hog tie you until the police took you away. Being fully within my rights to do so.

lpast said:

No jerry were talking about you bringing guns in my house if I ask you not too.

Click to expand...

That's not at all what you said. You gave no qualifiers, no context. You said if I brought anything you didn't want into your house, you would just draw a gun on me. That's what you said. If that's not what you meant, own it, because you lost control of your keyboard when you had an emotional spike.

If you can't even control what you say on a discussion forum, maybe you shouldn't have a firearm, either.

Jerry said:

So, this is where I start to get frustrated. No one is talking about a "left about" loaded gun. I'm advocating concealed carry. Not walking into someone's house and leaving a gun on the bench. I'm talking about a pistol which stays in it's holster, on my person, at all times, unless the gravest extreme arises. That's what "concealed carry" means.

Click to expand...

Based on what I know about you, I'd personally have no problems letting you into my house carrying. But that's because I've interacted with you enough to reach the conclusion that you would not be irresponsible with your weapon.

Some random Joe? Who knows? How can I be certain that they don't unholster the weapon and put it down when they are moving some lumber around because it's jamming them in the side? I've seen plenty of guys remove their toolbags when moving equipment, so it's certainly possible that someone could do something similar with a gun. I've also seen people leave **** on a job site. Hell, I've done it.

Random people shouldn't be trusted to be responsible. If anything, evidence tells us that random people should be expected to be irresponsible until they show otherwise.

comedy4all said:

In that scenario; you are doing some work in MY house. I don’t know you, I don’t fully trust you...

Click to expand...

How can you trust the work we're doing, then?

comedy4all said:

and I was not made aware of you carrying a weapon before you entered MY property.

Click to expand...

Isn't that the entire point of carrying concealed?

comedy4all said:

I would have no way of knowing what your intentions are.

Click to expand...

Me: "Hi, my name is Jerry, this is Bob, we're with Zombie Fortress General Contractors here to work on your secret underground Nazi-super-science genetic lab and massage parlor."

You: "Would you mind if I see your IDs, please?"

Me: "Absolutely" *hands you driver's license* "Please feel free to contact my boss and verify our work permit. Would you mind if we set up in your drive way meanwhile?"

comedy4all said:

To protect myself and all others that are under my protection on my property; OH YES I would take you down fast and hog tie you until the police took you away. Being fully within my rights to do so.

Click to expand...

Even in castle doctrine states, you can't just pull a gun like that. I would have to be trespassing, which I wouldn't be, and I would have to be committing a felony while trespassing, which I wouldn't be. If you aren't in a castle doctrine state, then I would have to be committing a "forcible felony" and/or immediately threatening someone's life, which I wouldn't be.

Tucker Case said:

Based on what I know about you, I'd personally have no problems letting you into my house carrying. But that's because I've interacted with you enough to reach the conclusion that you would not be irresponsible with your weapon.

Some random Joe? Who knows? How can I be certain that they don't unholster the weapon and put it down when they are moving some lumber around because it's jamming them in the side? I've seen plenty of guys remove their toolbags when moving equipment, so it's certainly possible that someone could do something similar with a gun. I've also seen people leave **** on a job site. Hell, I've done it.

Random people shouldn't be trusted to be responsible. If anything, evidence tells us that random people should be expected to be irresponsible until they show otherwise.

Click to expand...

Let me shift gears on you here:

Let's say you don't know me, never seen or heard from me before, we're perfect strangers. Let's assume that for some ungodly reason you ordered a new cabinet set from Lowe's, wanted it installed by someone else (since I know you're in the field, let's say your injured) and Lowe's in turn taped my employer to install it. When we go on a Lowe's-install, we wear a Lowe's t-shirt.

What could an installer do to establish a good enough repore(sp) with you, so that if you noticed them wearing a concealed pistol a few hours later, you would be ok with it?

This is open ended, anything at all, answer any way you wish. The question is open to everyone. I would really like to know because I do care.

Jerry said:

That's not at all what you said. You gave no qualifiers, no context. You said if I brought anything you didn't want into your house, you would just draw a gun on me. That's what you said. If that's not what you meant, own it, because you lost control of your keyboard when you had an emotional spike.

If you can't even control what you say on a discussion forum, maybe you shouldn't have a firearm, either.

Click to expand...

ROFL.....go about your business in lieing bliss...you just want to be right at all costs...and your talking to the wrong guy for that...and I was carrying guns before you were born...loool.....
I said from the first POST>....MY HOUSE MY HOUSE...I said if someone requests I do not being a firearm in thier..house..I either DONT BRING IT IN or I stay out of their house...now you can swish and dance and sing all the lullabyes you want...thats all the CLARIFICATION and qualifiers your going to get...LMAO....your a trip dude

lpast said:

ROFL.....go about your business in lieing bliss...you just want to be right at all costs...and your talking to the wrong guy for that...and I was carrying guns before you were born...loool.....
I said from the first POST>....MY HOUSE MY HOUSE...I said if someone requests I do not being a firearm in thier..house..I either DONT BRING IT IN or I stay out of their house...now you can swish and dance and sing all the lullabyes you want...thats all the CLARIFICATION and qualifiers your going to get...LMAO....your a trip dude

Click to expand...

Do you have an answer to my previous question? I would love to hear it.

Jerry said:

Let me shift gears on you here:

Let's say you don't know me, never seen or heard from me before, we're perfect strangers. Let's assume that for some ungodly reason you ordered a new cabinet set from Lowe's, wanted it installed by someone else (since I know you're in the field, let's say your injured) and Lowe's in turn taped my employer to install it. When we go on a Lowe's-install, we wear a Lowe's t-shirt.

What could an installer do to establish a good enough repore(sp) with you, so that if you noticed them wearing a concealed pistol a few hours later, you would be ok with it?

This is open ended, anything at all, answer any way you wish. The question is open to everyone. I would really like to know because I do care.

Click to expand...

The hypothetical is almost to strange for me because even if I was injured (and I'd have to be severely injured in a damned near permanent way in order to get someone else to hang cabinets for me) I would never go through Lowe's or Home Depot for the work. I know way too many people in the trades personally to go with strangers. So it's actually a bit difficult for me to imagine myself in that scenario.

But I think I'd be pissed off that some random dude came into my home carrying without making it known to me. I'd probably ask him to leave then and there because he didn't tell me first because he's already shown himself to be untrustworthy by virtue of keeping it a secret while he was in my home, IMO. Had he said from the start, "I'm carrying concealed, I just want to let you know that before I do any work here" I'd be much more inclined to let him in and just tell him to keep it well hidden since my wife might freak out if she saw it.

Right now in my internship, I am working with foster children who are often in very, very bad neighborhoods here in the Chicagoland area (everyone has been hearing about the crime and murders here lately and I'm talking about the neighborhoods where that is going on).

Even though I'm going out there to help troubled kids, I am an intruder in these people's homes. They are trusting me by letting me in there. I'm there as a mental health professional working with children who are often the relatives of the foster parents, so you might think that they are already trusting me with more than enough to feel comfortable with me carrying in their home, but it's a different animal entirely because being a competent mental health professional is a very different thing than being competent with a gun.

I would never violate their trust in such a manner, even though I am very much putting myself at great risk of becoming the victim of a crime by going into those neighborhoods without any protection. That's a risk I have chosen to take. If I do become a statistic because of my choice, then that's on me for making that choice. That's my stance on things.

Granted, it's flat-out illegal for me or anyone else to carry concealed due to the laws in Illinois (laws I firmly disagree with, btw) but the point I am making remains. I'm saying what I am saying as someone who is probably at a much degree of risk than most people, when you consider the crime rates in the neighborhoods I am going into alone, unarmed, and at night. I do something where carrying concealed for protection purposes not only makes sense, but I would guess that most people wouldn't even consider doing it unless they could carry concealed. Yet I would never consider carrying in these people's homes because it would be a violation of their trust.

Jerry said:

Do you have an answer to my previous question? I would love to hear it.

Click to expand...

You have all the answers your going to get after you emotional loss of reason...

I'm having a hard time understanding how not telling someone I'm carrying, is a violation of trust.

I'm trying to add to this post but I'm just drawing a blank. I don't get it.

Are there other things which could be considered a violation of trust, if I don't tell you about them before hand? If there are, then that would help me associate a concealed gun relative to these other things and get a better sense of where you're coming from.

A footnote: the most likely, if not only reason I wouldn't tell a client before-hand that I was carrying, is that I don't want to make waves with my employer. My employer doesn't know either. Chances are, even if they don't care, friction between client and employer = small pay check. My point is, I'm trying to be discrete, not secretive. I don't think many people make the same distinction, though.

There's a lot of things I don't tell my employer about because they're private. I don't tell him when I have jock-itch, I don't air my dirty laundry about my divorce (he has the basic idea but I don't give the gory details), if I were a woman I wouldn't announce to a client that I was on my period before working in his home. To me, that's the same thing.

I know we have a difference of opinion here, but I'm trying to avoid fighting as much as I can. From where I'm sitting, requiring me to tell you that I'm carrying is exactly like requiring me to give you access to my Facebook and e-mail before hand. To me, it's not about trust, it's just my privacy, so I view a 'duty to announce' as a breach in trust.

It's just a difference I'm trying to explore, because I have to deal with people of all different views on this. The more information I have, the better I can navigate.

Jerry said:

I'm having a hard time understanding how not telling someone I'm carrying, is a violation of trust.

Click to expand...

Going into someone else's house armed has long been considered a sign of disrespect. Since medieval times, at least. Sneaking the weapon into someone's home is the height of disrespectful, and it's also extremely cowardly.

If they are wiling to be honest about being armed, they are at least showing that they respect your home and your rules.

Tucker Case said:

Going into someone else's house armed has long been considered a sign of disrespect. Since medieval times, at least. Sneaking the weapon into someone's home is the height of disrespectful, and it's also extremely cowardly.

If they are wiling to be honest about being armed, they are at least showing that they respect your home and your rules.

Click to expand...

It's new to me, I guess I'll have to do some research on it for context. I appreciate your feed back, it's been very helpful.

If it would be ok to pry at this topic a little more: When I get home I'll be working on my black-belt, would you also consider it a breach of trust if I did not announce my combative's training before working on your home?

I mean, that's not something I can leave in the car....

Jerry said:

It's new to me, I guess I'll have to do some research on it for context. I appreciate your feed back, it's been very helpful.

If it would be ok to pry at this topic a little more: When I get home I'll be working on my black-belt, would you also consider it a breach of trust if I did not announce my combative's training before working on your home?

I mean, that's not something I can leave in the car....

Click to expand...

No, there'd be no expectation to reveal your martial arts training for exactly the reason you give at the end of your post. You can't leave it in your car.