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Which right holds sway?

Which right holds sway?

  • 2nd Amendment

    Votes: 15 21.7%
  • Property Rights

    Votes: 54 78.3%

  • Total voters
    69
Jerry heres the thing...we dont smoke in someones home that asks us not too...If someone tells me no guns allowed in their house...at that point my choice is...dont bring a gun in their house or dont go into their house. A persons home is their castle as I see it..
Smoking is not comparable to lawful possession of a firearm. I don't know why you would even think to make the comparison. There is no amendment protecting smoking. Smoking can't be used as a form of self defense. I have no idea how I would stop the couple rabid dogs I'v had to shoot in the past, with a cigarette. I have no idea how a tobacco pipe could be used to thwart off an assault from the ex-wife's angry gang-banger boyfriend.

As I said, if I'm there as a social guest, I would leave. If I'm there as an employee, then the trick is to not get caught.

So if you want to keep going down the 'it's my house' bumper-sticker sloganeering, fine, it's your house, so just don't ever open it to employees or the public. No problem.
 
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So far we have been discussing property-rights of businesses. What about homes? Would the same remain true for homes in your opinion, Jerry? If I invite a neighbor to my house, shouldn't I be able to tell him to not bring a concealed weapon with him? I'm not trying to build a strawman, but rather trying to understand why you think business owners don't have the right to decide who can be on their property... Is it because it is a 'public' storefront?
 
I have always understood carrying concealed to be just that. No one knows you're packing, so no harm, no foul. Business owners aren't going to frisk you when you enter their property, neither are home owners.

If you get asked to leave because of your gun, you're not concealing the gun properly, and you need to find a different way of carrying it on your person.

That said, you should think twice about packing in a Bank, Bar, Jewelry store, or Courthouse. Some of those places might have a metal detector.
 
If I'm there as a social guest I would leave entirely. I have real credible threats against my self and family and there's nothing going on at your place which would justify my letting down my guard to those threats.

Please understand that this is not meant to be personal to you in any way, nor is it unique to firearms. I would no sooner leave my cell phone in the car, either, because my child or elderly parents might have an emergency.

My need to have the item is so great that I would be willing to cause tension in our friendship to keep it. I don't make the decision lightly, and I'd rather not have to make it at all, but if I'm forced into the corner have have to make it, I choose the item. Your gun-free house can't protect me from the very real gang members my ex-wife riled up. Your gun-free house can't protect me from the rabid wild dogs I've had to shoot in the past (which are the reason I started carrying in the first place).

If I'm there as a contractor, I would put it in my car and look for an opportunity to retrieve it while you weren't paying attention. I need the job, so I'll make nice with the client, but I also need to be ready.



I have a hard time conveying to people how nieve that statement is. I didn't ask for my ex to turn bat-**** crazy and stir up some gang members. Chances are I didn't specifically request to be sent to you house, either. I just take whatever jobs I'm handed, employers tend to like that quality.

From where I'm coming from, I have bills to pay just like everyone else. I have to have a job, and carpentry is what I'm trained in. It takes to much time and money to completely re-train to another profession just to roll the dice and see if that employer/client allows firearms. If they don't, then folks like yourself would expect me to take a few more years and another $10,000 to re-train yet again. I end up in an endless cycle of training, never actually having a career, all because I want nothing more than to exorsize a specifically enumerated constitutionally protected right. Also, there are credible threats I need to be ready for. I feel, and this is just how I view my situation, that I'm in a survival scenario. I have to avoid detection by the employer and client while remaining ready for the ex-wife's angry gang boyfriend.

The way I see it, non of this has anything to do with respect in any way. It has nothing to do with respecting you or my employer. Braking the rules has nothing to do with disrespect, either. To me, the entire topic of respect is completely besides the point.

To me, it's about survival.

You come with too much baggage as a contractor. For safety reasons I would just not let you on my property period. But most likely I would not know about those things like gang members and your dishonesty and willingness to go behind my back and carry a gun anyways. Which is why someone may create a gun free zone in the first place to keep people like you that are dishonest and pose a risk to the safety of everyone else out of harms way.
 
I'm so sick of these whiney victim ****s pretending their rights are infringed upon. Quit your ****ing job if you don't like the rules that they have, you whiny no-personal-responsibility-having ****. People shouldn't beg the nanny state to protect them, instead they need slap on a pair of ****ing balls and bear their arms to their heart's content. Nobody's stopping them form doing that, they're just too much of a ****ing coward to step up and take a stand.

This is why our country is in the crapper. People are too ****ing cowardly to take a stand on their own. They always need the government to step in and protect them from uncomfortable choices. Big government bitches. And they infest both sides of the political divide.
 
Does this mean that the 18 yr old public high school senior can keep a firearm in their vehicle while parked in the school parking lot?
No.

You have to be 21 years old to buy, own or posses a pistol, so we're automatically not suggesting that highschool students be armed.... unless you know of 21 year-olds who are still in highschool.

You will see pro-gun folks use the term "an otherwise lawfully possessed firearm" for this exact reason. An 18 y/o is not otherwise lawfully possessing a pistol when they then bring it onto school grounds, so they are excluded from our advocacy.
 
My point was to correct your claim that I was trying to regulate firearms.

If you want to categorically remove laws which regulate firearms, then I trust you oppose giving 'no-firearms' signs legal backing? I'm talking about states which make it a separate crime of criminal trespass, not someone who is asked to leave and refuses.
I am opposed to new laws in general. You can already press charges against someone that refuse to leave your property if there is a legal reason to do so.

Carrying a licensed concealed gun into a store or other public places of business is one thing, but carrying that weapon into area that are not used by the public is an entirely different situation. My home is not a public area by no means, nor is the building where I work out of. The only people that go in either are invited guests. The same goes for businesses that manufacture items, the employees are guests invited for the sole purpose of working. Most states require the business owner to provide a safe work space. That includes reasonable safety of the workers from other people coming onto the property. In fact most manufacturing plants will not allow visitors to enter the property. And if you do they may call the police and charge you with trespassing.



I gave justification should the state choose to require a class. I don't have a strong opinion on this one. I can go either way. If the state wants me to take a class, fine, not the end of the world. If they don't, that's one less thing I have to worry about. One of the reasons I chose to live in SD is because we're moving away from requiring a permit at all. The existing permit doesn't require any kind of class. $10 and your permit arrives in the mail within 2 weeks. IMO we should make basic gun safety a mandatory part of the HS curriculum, that way everyone has the class by default even if they never own a gun.
Either the 2nd Amendment has power or it doesnt. if you keep giving up that power soon it will have no power.

Gun safety is the job of the parents. If they feel that their children need lessons in gun safety they can personally teach it to their children or pay someone to do it.


IMO every citizen should have to do a 2-year term of military service. Couple that with the total elimination of CCWs and everyone is happy.
Forced military service does not make a good soldier.

the red countries in this map are countries with conscription. Notice anything obvious about which countries those are and what countries do not have conscription? Hint: the majority of the red countries do not represent the free world.

500px-Conscription_map_of_the_world.svg.png
 
So far we have been discussing property-rights of businesses. What about homes? Would the same remain true for homes in your opinion, Jerry? If I invite a neighbor to my house, shouldn't I be able to tell him to not bring a concealed weapon with him? I'm not trying to build a strawman, but rather trying to understand why you think business owners don't have the right to decide who can be on their property... Is it because it is a 'public' storefront?
My core tenant is this: The right of every citizen who can otherwise lawfully posses a firearm, to have their right to carry into all places open to the public, protected (non-subjective, un-arbitrary exceptions do exist).

So, have you opened your home to the public? Are you holding an open-house to sell your home? Do you run a business out of your home where you invite clients into your home; day-care or physical therapy, for example? Are you holding an in-house garage sale (aka 'house sale')? Have you hired employees or contractors to do work in your home?

If your answer to these questions is 'no', then my answer to you is also 'no'. If you answered any of these questions with 'yes', then my answer to you is also 'yes'.

No part of my advocacy regards what's called "social guests", which is what you neighbor would be if you just invited them over for dinner. My focus is on places open to the public and places of employment.

I also apply conditions, which include but are not limited to:
  • The firearm must remain on the employee's or regular citizen's person at all times; never left in a bag or an office or desk, etc. The person must maintain 100% "positive control" at all times.
  • An employee's right to carry is only protected while they are there to work. If they just stop by for non business related reasons, they are "social guests" and the employer may ban their firearm.
  • An employee or regular citizen must have their CCW card on their person and allow the property owner to inspect it on-demand.
  • An employer has the right to make a photo copy of the CCW for their records.
  • The method of carry must not interfere with the wear and appearance of the employer's dress-code or uniform.
 
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I'm so sick of these whiney victim ****s pretending their rights are infringed upon. Quit your ****ing job if you don't like the rules that they have, you whiny no-personal-responsibility-having ****. People shouldn't beg the nanny state to protect them, instead they need slap on a pair of ****ing balls and bear their arms to their heart's content. Nobody's stopping them form doing that, they're just too much of a ****ing coward to step up and take a stand.

This is why our country is in the crapper. People are too ****ing cowardly to take a stand on their own. They always need the government to step in and protect them from uncomfortable choices. Big government bitches. And they infest both sides of the political divide.
Oh grow up already.
 
You come with too much baggage as a contractor. For safety reasons I would just not let you on my property period. But most likely I would not know about those things like gang members and your dishonesty and willingness to go behind my back and carry a gun anyways. Which is why someone may create a gun free zone in the first place to keep people like you that are dishonest and pose a risk to the safety of everyone else out of harms way.
I don't ask clients about their baggage, either, and for the same reason: It's non of my business. How do I know you don't have a crazy X with a pissed off gang-banger friend who's gona show up while I'm installing your new cabinets? I don't, and I shouldn't ask, either, because that's not within the scope of my job and is thus unprofessional.
 
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when you start taking personal responsibility for your choices, I'll be a grown up. Deal?
At least you admit you're acting immature. Kindly take it elsewhere, though, some of us are actually trying to explore the issue.
 
I have always understood carrying concealed to be just that. No one knows you're packing, so no harm, no foul. Business owners aren't going to frisk you when you enter their property, neither are home owners.

If you get asked to leave because of your gun, you're not concealing the gun properly, and you need to find a different way of carrying it on your person.

That said, you should think twice about packing in a Bank, Bar, Jewelry store, or Courthouse. Some of those places might have a metal detector.
When I get home I'm going to finish my degree. While at class I'll be sporting the rubber training version of my .38 snub to see if anyone notices.
 
At least you admit you're acting immature. Kindly take it elsewhere, though, some of us are actually trying to explore the issue.

And at least you admit that you don't take personal responsibility for your choices.
 
No.

You have to be 21 years old to buy, own or posses a pistol, so we're automatically not suggesting that highschool students be armed.... unless you know of 21 year-olds who are still in highschool.

You will see pro-gun folks use the term "an otherwise lawfully possessed firearm" for this exact reason. An 18 y/o is not otherwise lawfully possessing a pistol when they then bring it onto school grounds, so they are excluded from our advocacy.
Who said it was a pistol?
 
I don't ask clients about their baggage, either, and for the same reason: It's non of my business. How do I know you don't have a crazy X with a pissed off gang-banger friend who's gona show up while I'm installing your new cabinets? I don't, and I shouldn't ask, either, because that's not within the scope of my job and is thus unprofessional.

Back when I was working for a contractor servicing homes on warranty, my boss occasionally refused to service houses where there was high crime. He simply said that it was not worth it to risk our lives to service those homes. He also instructed me to leave any property where the owner was being an asshole.

Honestly, I have turned clients away based on assumptions that I have made about them. By now it comes natural for me to determine if there is going to be any trouble with the client. And since they all come onto my property and enter my shop, I have to make observations not only for my safety but for the security of my property and the occasional employee that is working there.

BTW in just about all of the states that have the parking lot laws there is an exception for very small businesses i.e. people working from their homes or a small shop. In other words even with the laws that the NRA are getting passed I can still tell you to take your gun off of my property. And further if the property owner that is affected by these parking lot laws feels that there is a threat to safety they can still tell you to leave. I am sure at this point you will say what is the problem then? Well that would be that the NRA pushed for unnecessary laws that by case law allows further hedging of liberties by the government. It is the classic if this allowed then so is this example. What used to not be regulated by the Government is now by case law being regulated by the Government. What it does is give the Government power to dictate further what a property owner can and cannot do on their own property.

If the Government can dictate to a property owner on their Constitutional rights, then whats next? Will other groups take this example and want their own laws? Freedom of speech is protected by the Constitution. Should there be a law that allows people to come into a business and let tell people anything they want, including stuff that would be bad for business? If the owner looses their right to make these people leave it could ruin their business.
 
Who said it was a pistol?
In states like Oregon which allow firearms on highschool property, the bearer of the firearm must have a concealed weapons permit. The only type of firearm these permits regard, are firearms which are made to be concealable, ie pistols. Not rifles. Federal law requires a citizen to, among other requirements, be 21 in order to buy, own or posses a pistol.

Therefore, the only firearm an 18 year old could lawfully own and posses on their own, is a rifle, and since rifles aren't covered under CCW permits, no 18 yo could legally bring a rifle onto school property.
 
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Back when I was working for a contractor servicing homes on warranty, my boss occasionally refused to service houses where there was high crime. He simply said that it was not worth it to risk our lives to service those homes. He also instructed me to leave any property where the owner was being an asshole.

Honestly, I have turned clients away based on assumptions that I have made about them. By now it comes natural for me to determine if there is going to be any trouble with the client. And since they all come onto my property and enter my shop, I have to make observations not only for my safety but for the security of my property and the occasional employee that is working there.

BTW in just about all of the states that have the parking lot laws there is an exception for very small businesses i.e. people working from their homes or a small shop. In other words even with the laws that the NRA are getting passed I can still tell you to take your gun off of my property. And further if the property owner that is affected by these parking lot laws feels that there is a threat to safety they can still tell you to leave. I am sure at this point you will say what is the problem then? Well that would be that the NRA pushed for unnecessary laws that by case law allows further hedging of liberties by the government. It is the classic if this allowed then so is this example. What used to not be regulated by the Government is now by case law being regulated by the Government. What it does is give the Government power to dictate further what a property owner can and cannot do on their own property.

If the Government can dictate to a property owner on their Constitutional rights, then whats next? Will other groups take this example and want their own laws? Freedom of speech is protected by the Constitution. Should there be a law that allows people to come into a business and let tell people anything they want, including stuff that would be bad for business? If the owner looses their right to make these people leave it could ruin their business.
What's next? I don't know, curly-Q light-bulbs, maybe.

Oh wait they already did that one....

If you folks are so worried about your rights, then stop banning firearms. It's crazy, all you have to do is *choose* to allow firearms and all this legal action goes away. You wouldn't have to worry about future legal action or infringements if you weren't already infringing on others. So if you lose more rights in the long run, poetic justice imo. You got what was coming to you.

A prudent and reasonable person would cut their losses and allow firearms so as to avoid these long-term ramification you speak of, but I guess since you aren't changing you mind that you don't truly care.
 
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If I'm there as a social guest I would leave entirely. I have real credible threats against my self and family and there's nothing going on at your place which would justify my letting down my guard to those threats.

Please understand that this is not meant to be personal to you in any way, nor is it unique to firearms. I would no sooner leave my cell phone in the car, either, because my child or elderly parents might have an emergency.

My need to have the item is so great that I would be willing to cause tension in our friendship to keep it. I don't make the decision lightly, and I'd rather not have to make it at all, but if I'm forced into the corner have have to make it, I choose the item. Your gun-free house can't protect me from the very real gang members my ex-wife riled up. Your gun-free house can't protect me from the rabid wild dogs I've had to shoot in the past (which are the reason I started carrying in the first place).

If I'm there as a contractor, I would put it in my car and look for an opportunity to retrieve it while you weren't paying attention. I need the job, so I'll make nice with the client, but I also need to be ready.



I have a hard time conveying to people how nieve that statement is. I didn't ask for my ex to turn bat-**** crazy and stir up some gang members. Chances are I didn't specifically request to be sent to you house, either. I just take whatever jobs I'm handed, employers tend to like that quality.

From where I'm coming from, I have bills to pay just like everyone else. I have to have a job, and carpentry is what I'm trained in. It takes to much time and money to completely re-train to another profession just to roll the dice and see if that employer/client allows firearms. If they don't, then folks like yourself would expect me to take a few more years and another $10,000 to re-train yet again. I end up in an endless cycle of training, never actually having a career, all because I want nothing more than to exorsize a specifically enumerated constitutionally protected right. Also, there are credible threats I need to be ready for. I feel, and this is just how I view my situation, that I'm in a survival scenario. I have to avoid detection by the employer and client while remaining ready for the ex-wife's angry gang boyfriend.

The way I see it, non of this has anything to do with respect in any way. It has nothing to do with respecting you or my employer. Braking the rules has nothing to do with disrespect, either. To me, the entire topic of respect is completely besides the point.

To me, it's about survival.
I agree with your ability to choose to not go anywhere that would disallow you to carry your weapon.
Personally I would not care if you carried a gun in my house if I was aware of it; my previous post was a hypothetical.

If you came into my house as a contractor I would be fine with you carrying a gun if I was aware of it at the start and I trusted your company. If I had no foreknowledge of your gun, and then became aware of it I would at the very least discontinue your services (it would be a breach of trust). If I did not know or trust you well, I would use my weapon to hold you until the police can come to remove you from my property (after all I don’t know how you might react to my confronting you about your gun).

Your situation seems to be rather rare. You should do all that needs to be done to secure your safety.

Showing respect will gain you allies, and showing disrespect will lose you allies. If you break the rules on my property than I would see that as a personal insult; this will make me less likely to care if someone comes after you. If you follow the rules on my property I will consider you my protected guest; if you are my protected guest than no one will harm you wile I am around.

Respect will save your life!
 
I agree with your ability to choose to not go anywhere that would disallow you to carry your weapon.
Personally I would not care if you carried a gun in my house if I was aware of it; my previous post was a hypothetical.

If you came into my house as a contractor I would be fine with you carrying a gun if I was aware of it at the start and I trusted your company. If I had no foreknowledge of your gun, and then became aware of it I would at the very least discontinue your services (it would be a breach of trust). If I did not know or trust you well, I would use my weapon to hold you until the police can come to remove you from my property (after all I don’t know how you might react to my confronting you about your gun).

Your situation seems to be rather rare. You should do all that needs to be done to secure your safety.

Showing respect will gain you allies, and showing disrespect will lose you allies. If you break the rules on my property than I would see that as a personal insult; this will make me less likely to care if someone comes after you. If you follow the rules on my property I will consider you my protected guest; if you are my protected guest than no one will harm you wile I am around.

Respect will save your life!

Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? You so much as notice a weapon on me, and you imedialty pull yours? And you want to lecture me on respect? HA!
 
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Makes me wonder what this guy is going to do if I have to bring a nail or powder-actuated gun into his house.
 
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It'd be pretty damned funny if someone said you couldn't bring the ramset into their house.
I acknowledge the fact that there is a lot of emotion on both sides of this issue, and I'm making a genuine effort to give room for knee-jerk reactions.

I've been on this and a couple other forums recently, trying to wrap my mind around the idea that a snub .38 is a threat, but all the other tools I bring into someone's house is ok. I mean, if I wanted to harm a family, I wouldn't need a firearm. Just with the tools in my trunk I could subdue a family of 4 and make an armature SAW film. A snub .38 is....nothing. A homeowner wouldn't think twice if they saw me assemble an air-powered nail gun. they might give me a weird look when I duct-tape the barrel safety down, but will certainly bleed when I hold down the trigger and nails come flying out with the speed of a machine gun.

I just don't get it. You can't trust me to have a snub .38, but your'e going to trust me to make your stair case, your balcony, your new roof? If you can't trust a CCW, law-abiding citizen who's in the military, to properly carry a concealed pistol, how can you trust that you won't get electricuted the first time you turn on the water in your new shower I built? (pretty damn easy to do, for those not familiar)

It just doesn't follow. I don't understand. I don't get it. It just sounds like paranoia.

I've asked folks before....ok, I'll except "your house, your rules". No problem. So, what happens when you say "no DeWalt, I hate the color yellow"? Does an animal activist homeowner feel entitled to cancel a contract without penalty when workers show up with leather tool belts?
 
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I acknowledge the fact that there is a lot of emotion on both sides of this issue, and I'm making a genuine effort to give room for knee-jerk reactions.

I've been on this and a couple other forums recently, trying to wrap my mind around the idea that a snub .38 is a threat, but all the other tools I bring into someone's house is ok. I mean, if I wanted to harm a family, I wouldn't need a firearm. Just with the tools in my trunk I could subdue a family of 4 and make an armature SAW film. A snub .38 is....nothing. A homeowner wouldn't think twice if they saw me assemble an air-powered nail gun. they might give me a weird look when I duct-tape the barrel safety down, but will certainly bleed when I hold down the trigger and nails come flying out with the speed of a machine gun.

I just don't get it. You can't trust me to have a snub .38, but your'e going to trust me to make your stair case, your balcony, your new roof? If you can't trust a CCW, law-abiding citizen who's in the military, to properly carry a concealed pistol, how can you trust that you won't get electricuted the first time you turn on the water in your new shower I built? (pretty damn easy to do, for those not familiar)

It just doesn't follow. I don't understand. I don't get it. It just sounds like paranoia.

I've asked folks before....ok, I'll except "your house, your rules". No problem. So, what happens when you say "no DeWalt, I hate the color yellow"? Does an animal activist homeowner feel entitled to cancel a contract without penalty when workers show up with leather tool belts?

The intended use of tools is not to kill or maim, the relevancy being that a firearm is intentionally designed to do harm. A nail gun or any tools was never intended to be a weapon. Which brings up what exactly are you so afraid of that you need a gun to protect yourself from that any of those tools cant save you from? Seriously you just invalidated your own claims for needing a gun on my property since you just claimed to already have tools that could be just as deadly.
 
The intended use of tools is not to kill or maim, the relevancy being that a firearm is intentionally designed to do harm. A nail gun or any tools was never intended to be a weapon. Which brings up what exactly are you so afraid of that you need a gun to protect yourself from that any of those tools cant save you from? Seriously you just invalidated your own claims for needing a gun on my property since you just claimed to already have tools that could be just as deadly.
You just invalidated your own claims for needing a gun-free property since you just claimed that I already have tools that could be just as deadly.
 
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