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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?


  • Total voters
    128
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

This just simply is not true. There are dozens of ways to die that are much more painful than drowning.


The sad part is what have gotten a lot of good intelligence by using waterboarding...
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

The sad part is what have gotten a lot of good intelligence by using waterboarding...

Bull ****....you are completely talking out of your ass here.....Even the biggest Bush fans have never even claimed this......there is ZERO evidence that we have gained ANY intelligence from the use of torture methods.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Bull ****....you are completely talking out of your ass here.....Even the biggest Bush fans have never even claimed this......there is ZERO evidence that we have gained ANY intelligence from the use of torture methods.

Sure we did. Torture for verifiable information works and it was a ticking time bomb scenario. It was only 3 people (the abolute 'highest/most informed' terrorists in custody).

Three top people in a ticking time bomb scenario for verifiable information? No problem. I hope we'd do it again.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Sure we did. Torture for verifiable information works and it was a ticking time bomb scenario. It was only 3 people (the abolute 'highest/most informed' terrorists in custody).

Three top people in a ticking time bomb scenario for verifiable information? No problem. I hope we'd do it again.

Personally I would not go with torture it too hit and miss. I would go with the threat of the total annialation of their people and cause and back it up with a VERY vivid demonstration of resolve. Basically out mean them. i am a big fan of mutually assurred destruction. It makes things much safer. For instance if its a muslim terrorist in custody I would find a madrass and bomb it to obilivion and then find a couple mosques and hit them timed for maximum carnage and destruction. If you had a couple of his buddies I shoot them with bullets dipped in pigs blood and them have corpses burned with the pigs carcuss and blood after they sit a couple of days while our boy gets a nice long look at em. Would even burn a Koran in front of him. The object would be to break their will, and for them to see that you are as willing as they are to go to ANY lengths to stop them. Get them to see the futility of their struggle.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Personally I would not go with torture it too hit and miss.

Not really. Ticking time bomb scenario... the person gives info, the info is verified, if the info is a lie, things get worse. When the info is verifiable, torture works every time.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Not really. Ticking time bomb scenario... the person gives info, the info is verified, if the info is a lie, things get worse. When the info is verifiable, torture works every time.
Depends on the person and their comittmet to their cause. The head hanchoes of these terrorist opperations are rarely as commited as their people. We have been lucky so far. Wait till we get one that wont break. Then what?
Besides not all info is immeadiatly verifiable. Then what do you do? You have to break the terrorists before they come gunning for you by detering them from gunning for you in the first place. You make the price so confiscatory and so barbaric as to give even the most hardended bastards pause. They have to understand you WILL be a bastard that will stop at nothing to get them. That means you do so very bad and nasty deeds and make sure the word gets spread far and wide you did them and will do them again.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Depends on the person and their comittmet to their cause. The head hanchoes of these terrorist opperations are rarely as commited as their people. We have been lucky so far. Wait till we get one that wont break. Then what?

Everyone breaks. The orcs have no greater intestinal fortitude than anyone else, and they don't generally have important verifiable info anyway. You might be surprised how many of their beliefs people will give up to save their ass.

At any rate, I'm only ok with it when we know (beyond any doubt) the person is a mass murderer, we have a ticking time bomb and they have the code.

Besides not all info is immeadiatly verifiable. Then what do you do?

Seek only information that is critical to save lives and is verifiable, if not immediately.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Everyone breaks. The orcs have no greater intestinal fortitude than anyone else, and they don't generally have important verifiable info anyway. You might be surprised how many of their beliefs people will give up to save their ass.

At any rate, I'm only ok with it when we know (beyond any doubt) the person is a mass murderer, we have a ticking time bomb and they have the code.



Seek only information that is critical to save lives and is verifiable, if not immediately.

I guess I come at it from a diffrent perspective. Anyway there are stubborn men out there, Ive met them, and definately wouldnt bet against them, they have a very specific mentality that is awe inspiring. I suppose if you could potentialy stop something you could try, but I wonder nontheless.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Every super-elite soldier the US has done it to in training has broken.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Every super-elite soldier the US has done it to in training has broken.

If you're talking about US soilders in SERE, well, they only got a taste. If you're talking about those we've tortured for real, largely all we know that we got from them was misinformation, or nonsense information (think Brooklin Bridge with a blow torch), or information we largely already had. Not to mention, we may have gotten it faster and more accurately with other methods.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

If you're talking about US soilders in SERE, well, they only got a taste.

And they've all broke.

If you're talking about those we've tortured for real, largely all we know that we got from them was misinformation, or nonsense information (think Brooklin Bridge with a blow torch), or information we largely already had. Not to mention, we may have gotten it faster and more accurately with other methods.

It works for verifiable information and should be employed in a ticking time bomb scenario against a known mass murderer with the code.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Bull ****....you are completely talking out of your ass here.....Even the biggest Bush fans have never even claimed this......there is ZERO evidence that we have gained ANY intelligence from the use of torture methods.


There are documented cases where waterboarding was used and valuable intelligence was gained that saved American Lives...The one terrorist Kahliff (not sure of the spelling chirped like a bird when he was water boarded..........
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

And they've all broke.

With just a taste. And would have told them anything, true or not. Which makes it not very reliable.


It works for verifiable information and should be employed in a ticking time bomb scenario against a known mass murderer with the code.

Outside of television, there is really no such thing as a ticking bomb. To believe we'd have the right person, with the right information, with enough time requires a lot of willing suspension of disbelief. Not only that, verification takes time. So, lying will not only buy time, but cause us to waste time.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

You are exactly right......The old saying "War is Hell" is applicable.....I am so tired of people whinning on the left that we are so mean. Do whatever it takes, the hell with the bleeding heart Liberals.

I nominate this for "Scariest Post of the Week."
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

There are documented cases where waterboarding was used and valuable intelligence was gained that saved American Lives...The one terrorist Kahliff (not sure of the spelling chirped like a bird when he was water boarded..........

Really? Can you provide the documents? You said "cases" (plural). Please provide the documentation.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

There are documented cases where waterboarding was used and valuable intelligence was gained that saved American Lives...The one terrorist Kahliff (not sure of the spelling chirped like a bird when he was water boarded..........

As noted above, don't just talk ****, back up your claim. I bet you can find anything but someone saying it. Nothing verifiable.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

With just a taste. And would have told them anything, true or not. Which makes it not very reliable.

Torture only works for verifiable information and should only be employed in the absolutely most dire circumstances. If it's a lie, that is discovered and it gets worse. When the truth comes out, that is verified, lives are saved and it's over.

Outside of television, there is really no such thing as a ticking bomb. To believe we'd have the right person, with the right information, with enough time requires a lot of willing suspension of disbelief. Not only that, verification takes time. So, lying will not only buy time, but cause us to waste time.

In the immediate aftermath of 911, I feel that the 3 top terrorists in custody did have information the equivalent of a ticking time bomb. Those 3 people were definately mass murdering terrorists and they definately had verifiable info about on-going terrorist operations. We didn't know what was next, we didn't have a grasp on the situation - and they did. I feel it was justified and even necessary.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Torture only works for verifiable information and should only be employed in the absolutely most dire circumstances. If it's a lie, that is discovered and it gets worse. When the truth comes out, that is verified, lives are saved and it's over.

As i noted, verification takes time. So a lie is as good as not saying anything. And we know they have lied (look up al Libi). And the lie won the day. Andf I have seen not one shread of verifiable evidience that any lives have been saved. Feel free to present any, but I do hope you do better than what has been presented in the past and shown flawed.

In the immediate aftermath of 911, I feel that the 3 top terrorists in custody did have information the equivalent of a ticking time bomb. Those 3 people were definately mass murdering terrorists and they definately had verifiable info about on-going terrorist operations. We didn't know what was next, we didn't have a grasp on the situation - and they did. I feel it was justified and even necessary.

There was nothing we could have tortured them for. In fact, all we needed to stop them was the FBI and CIA saring information. Torture wasn't required. I think some over react out of fear. I also think Bush used that fear to do some pretty stupid ****. I think better of us, and believe we have the courage to keep our heads and do what is not only moral, but more effective.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

There are documented cases where waterboarding was used and valuable intelligence was gained that saved American Lives...The one terrorist Kahliff (not sure of the spelling chirped like a bird when he was water boarded..........

More Bull **** from you....why should we expect anything different....another day....more NP BS.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

More Bull **** from you....why should we expect anything different....another day....more NP BS.

THe truth hurts my left wing friend.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Andf I have seen not one shread of verifiable evidience that any lives have been saved...

Torture wasn't required. I think some over react out of fear. I also think Bush used that fear to do some pretty stupid ****. I think better of us, and believe we have the courage to keep our heads and do what is not only moral, but more effective.

I think you are operating from a premise of ignorance and using that to convict an established target. It will probably be decades before the classified information gained is released. But, we did have several senators (including the chair of the intelligence committee?) make such claims. I believe that your assessment is inaccurate.

I'll agree to disagree, and we'll see what happened in a couple/few decades. In the meantime, I'm ok with waterboarding 3 top people for verifiable information that likely saved lives (I mean, c'mon, they were terrorists, it's not like they had information about anything other than killing). You can continue to claim that it was pointless, etc, and it's not like any secret documents regarding it are coming out anytime soon. I think you're jumping to judgement, based on ignorance. I'll give a western liberal democracy the benefit of the doubt on something so limited (3 top people) and in the aftermath of 9/11.

Note, that does not mean that I advocate Iran's massive torture system. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to a western liberal democracy that only waterboarded 3 known top terrorists in the aftermath of the largest terrorist attack in history. I'm not advocating torture in general.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I think you are operating from a premise of ignorance and using that to convict an established target. It will probably be decades before the classified information gained is released. But, we did have several senators (including the chair of the intelligence committee?) make such claims. I believe that your assessment is inaccurate.

I'll agree to disagree, and we'll see what happened in a couple/few decades. In the meantime, I'm ok with waterboarding 3 top people for verifiable information that likely saved lives (I mean, c'mon, they were terrorists, it's not like they had information about anything other than killing). You can continue to claim that it was pointless, etc, and it's not like any secret documents regarding it are coming out anytime soon. I think you're jumping to judgement, based on ignorance. I'll give a western liberal democracy the benefit of the doubt on something so limited (3 top people) and in the aftermath of 9/11.

Note, that does not mean that I advocate Iran's massive torture system. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to a western liberal democracy that only waterboarded 3 known top terrorists in the aftermath of the largest terrorist attack in history. I'm not advocating torture in general.

No. Many governments use the we can't tell you to hide their sins. The fact is, it is easy enough to provide verifiable evidence where we got inaccurate information and acted on it. It is easy enough top show verifiable evidence that we tortured the wrong people. We should be able to produce some verifiable evidence of success if some exists. It is unlikely that any really exists, especially some that could not or did not come about through other means.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

THe truth hurts my left wing friend.

You wouldn't know truth if it walked up and kissed you on the face NP....truth is...there isn't one documented case that shows that we have ever gotten ANY useful information from torture methods....in fact, there are studies that show exactly the opposite.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

No. Many governments use the we can't tell you to hide their sins.

So? I already specified that I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in this specific situation. I didn't claim to give the benefit of the doubt to many governments or any other instances. It's not like I generally accept the 'secret' excuse from governments, so your comment serves only to obfuscate.

The fact is, it is easy enough to provide verifiable evidence where we got inaccurate information and acted on it.

I don't believe so.

It is easy enough top show verifiable evidence that we tortured the wrong people.

I don't believe so.

We should be able to produce some verifiable evidence of success if some exists.

Secret information is not readily released.

It is unlikely that any really exists, especially some that could not or did not come about through other means.

I disagree. Given the testimony by members of the Senate intelligence committee, I'd say the evidence is there but is not being released yet.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I don't believe so.

You'd be wrong. Look up al Libi.


I don't believe so.
Again, wrong. We have the from Canada with the wrong name, and the cab driver we killed in Afghanistan. verifiable, and not what we thought they were.



Secret information is not readily released.

Again, the other was easily released. And they tried hard to throw out stuff that was shown false (that too is documented and easily verifiable - see both the Brooklyn Bridge blow torch terrorist and the 2nd wave 9/11)

I disagree. Given the testimony by members of the Senate intelligence committee, I'd say the evidence is there but is not being released yet.

And I suggest easy to say, harder to prove.
 
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