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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?

  • Total voters
    128
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Paratrooper said:
For the record I don't condone torture, but I am not so naive as to think there is not a situation where it might be useful.
People's definition of torture has expanded to cover pretty much anything othe than asking them a question nicely.
We do things to our own soldiers that are illegal to do to terrorist, I find that mind boggling.
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That's not really true. Today we've waterdown the defintion. Waterboarding in the past was always considered torture.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Do I think it is torture? yes. It's simple enough that any time someone is in any way put through extremely painful physical or mental situations, it is torture. I would think a better poll would be to ask whether or not "torture" in whatever form is worth using IF results can be achieved by obtaining information.

We know that there have been people who are willing to die in the most excruciating ways rather than give up information. We also know that people will lie and say anything, including false self incrimination to stop the torture. We ALSO know that water boarding has on occasions been successful in providing accurate information which has aided us and has saved many lives.

I personally feel that any and all actions can be used to stop something that will have catastrophic consequences. That torture has been overly and wrongfully used in the past by some, not every time... should not be a determining factor that it never be used.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

00timh said:
Do I think it is torture? yes. It's simple enough that any time someone is in any way put through extremely painful physical or mental situations, it is torture. I would think a better poll would be to ask whether or not "torture" in whatever form is worth using IF results can be achieved by obtaining information.

We know that there have been people who are willing to die in the most excruciating ways rather than give up information. We also know that people will lie and say anything, including false self incrimination to stop the torture. We ALSO know that water boarding has on occasions been successful in providing accurate information which has aided us and has saved many lives.

I personally feel that any and all actions can be used to stop something that will have catastrophic consequences. That torture has been overly and wrongfully used in the past by some, not every time... should not be a determining factor that it never be used.
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Can you link verifiable evidence of it being successful. Other than with confessions, because even the innocnet wil confess.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:
We don't do it to our own. We give a taste. The very people responsible for the program told congress exactly that. We do not do it to our own.
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no, one guy told Congress it was different because our own "know it will stop". so, apparently, do jihadists, who count the seconds on their fingers until we have to quit.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:
Can you link verifiable evidence of it being successful.
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CIA Director Leon Panetta confirms that waterboarding led to Osama Bin Laden

Former head of CIA National Clandestine Service: Waterboarding Worked to Stop Attacks Before They Happened


etc. so on and so forth. Torture can absolutely be effective. I have watched it be effective. Information derived from torture probably saved my life. Waterboarding, too, is also incredibly effective, as has been attested to by CIA directors from both sides of the aisle.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:
Which is what we've been doing. Those who supported Bush's policy of torture excused us while putting others down. Calling you on your hypocrisy is what we've been doing.
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Um, you'd have to find an incident of hypocrisy to call someone on it. I don't care if it was Bush or Obama torturing terrorists. It's all good in my book. Just like killing murderers and rapists and such.

Boo Radley said:
Can you link verifiable evidence of it being successful. Other than with confessions, because even the innocnet wil confess.
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Can you link verifiable evidence of actual accounts of it being used and 'failing'?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

cpwill said:
CIA Director Leon Panetta confirms that waterboarding led to Osama Bin Laden

Former head of CIA National Clandestine Service: Waterboarding Worked to Stop Attacks Before They Happened


etc. so on and so forth. Torture can absolutely be effective. I have watched it be effective. Information derived from torture probably saved my life. Waterboarding, too, is also incredibly effective, as has been attested to by CIA directors from both sides of the aisle.
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You know I can provide links disputing that.


John McCain: Waterboarding, Torture Did Not Help Hunt for Osama Bin Laden

John McCain: Waterboarding, Torture Did Not Help Hunt for Osama Bin Laden - ABC News

Asked if harsh interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay played a role in obtaining intelligence on bin Laden’s whereabouts, Rumsfeld declares: “First of all, no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo Bay. That’s a myth that’s been perpetrated around the country by critics.

“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Donald Rumsfeld: Information That Led To Bin Laden Was Not Obtained Via Waterboarding

A group of former US military interrogators are pushing back against the notion that Bush administration “enhanced interrogation techniques” – which many consider to be torture – led to the intelligence that helped US officials locate Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

(snip)

It is a misconception that ideologues don’t talk, he says. “The opinion that, ‘Oh, he’s such a fanatic, he won’t tell us anything' – that’s uninformed blathering by people who don’t understand the business,” Herrington adds. “The experience with those who worked with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and some of the other most senior terrorists is that they are narcissists and that they do want to talk – and talk and talk.”

The key, Herrington says, is to “channel those long talking sessions where they begin to – inadvertently at first – reveal things that are useful. All the while he’s talking, he’s telling us things that he doesn’t think are important, but they are.”

That requires building relationships – a process that is hampered, not helped, by practices such as “slapping someone in the face and stripping them naked,” he adds.

Military interrogators: Waterboarding didn't yield tips that led to bin Laden - CSMonitor.com

As for claims by tose who want you to believe, who provide no actual evidence, well, that speaks to your willingness and not actual effectiveness.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

US soldiers are sleep deprived, given reduced food allowances, forced to do physical activities that exceed the capability of most human beings, and even struck. Schools such as SERE and Special Operations employ these methods.

Do prisoners deserve to be treated better than our own soldiers? Do I think we should be sawing people's limbs off or beating people with electric cables? Ofcourse not but peoples interpretation of torture now are ludicrous.

Its easy to sit behind the computer screen and say "yeah we shouldn't torture people" but I'll bet if they were put into the time sensitive emergency situation involving their family and community they would make that choice.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Paratrooper said:
US soldiers are sleep deprived, given reduced food allowances, forced to do physical activities that exceed the capability of most human beings, and even struck. Schools such as SERE and Special Operations employ these methods.

Do prisoners deserve to be treated better than our own soldiers? Do I think we should be sawing people's limbs off or beating people with electric cables? Ofcourse not but peoples interpretation of torture now are ludicrous.

Its easy to sit behind the computer screen and say "yeah we shouldn't torture people" but I'll bet if they were put into the time sensitive emergency situation involving their family and community they would make that choice.
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The people who run SERE before congress said what they were doing was not equal to what happens to prisoners. Those on SERE trainign only get a taste, little more. I have almost more trouble with people trying to excuse torture than with those doing it. In the end, we hurt our people, those who torture, when we support torture.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I don't support torture except under time sensitive emergencies.
Even Hillary Clinton conceded this:

In the event we were ever confronted with having to interrogate a detainee with knowledge of an imminent threat to millions of Americans, then the decision to depart from standard international practices must be made by the president
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I do however disagree with what people now consider torture (basically anything that makes a prisoner feel uncomfortable).
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

cpwill said:
CIA Director Leon Panetta confirms that waterboarding led to Osama Bin Laden

Former head of CIA National Clandestine Service: Waterboarding Worked to Stop Attacks Before They Happened


etc. so on and so forth. Torture can absolutely be effective. I have watched it be effective. Information derived from torture probably saved my life. Waterboarding, too, is also incredibly effective, as has been attested to by CIA directors from both sides of the aisle.
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lol. Ya gotta love Obama and his boys being all politically correct and stroking his base... but then snuck behind our backs and used it to help find the location of Osama bin Laden. I guess Obama does deserve more credit than some of us have been giving him, He feels its ok to use when OBL is caught. The hypocrisy is staggering.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

00timh said:
lol. Ya gotta love Obama and his boys being all politically correct and stroking his base... but then snuck behind our backs and used it to help find the location of Osama bin Laden. I guess Obama does deserve more credit than some of us have been giving him, He feels its ok to use when OBL is caught. The hypocrisy is staggering.
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That's actually not true, and not what his links say. Even those who make the claim don't make a direct one. They say back during Bush term a link was made, but not direct.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Paratrooper said:
I don't support torture except under time sensitive emergencies.
Even Hillary Clinton conceded this:



I do however disagree with what people now consider torture (basically anything that makes a prisoner feel uncomfortable).
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No, waterboarding has always been considered torture. Long ago I linked the CIA manual (which I can't find now) showing that these tactics were worse and more harmful long term than regular torture, so you misrepresent them badly here.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Arbo said:
Um, you'd have to find an incident of hypocrisy to call someone on it. I don't care if it was Bush or Obama torturing terrorists. It's all good in my book. Just like killing murderers and rapists and such.



Can you link verifiable evidence of actual accounts of it being used and 'failing'?
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Yes, I mentioned on this thread. al Libib has been linked often, and you should do your own search as well so you know it is common knowledge.

As for an inicident, see paratropper excusing torture above. See CP. there are plenty of examples.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Think of it this way, were giving those people from the mideast the swimming lessons they never had.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:
Yes, I mentioned on this thread. al Libib has been linked often, and you should do your own search as well so you know it is common knowledge.

As for an inicident, see paratropper excusing torture above. See CP. there are plenty of examples.
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I feel like I'm talking to thunder...
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

johnny_rebson said:
Getting bad information is better than getting no information at all.
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Tell that to the families of all we killed in in Iraq.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
Tell that to the families of all we killed in in Iraq.
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Thanks for admitting you have no real idea what our troops did over there.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:
No, waterboarding has always been considered torture. Long ago I linked the CIA manual (which I can't find now) showing that these tactics were worse and more harmful long term than regular torture, so you misrepresent them badly here.
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This response seems silly as I clearly chose in the poll that it was torture. My point in response on this topic is our hands are pretty much tied behind our back because everything is considered torture now.

I guess this is how an interrogation should go in liberal fantasy land:

Dude walks into the interrogation room. Guard is instructed to remove flex cuffs, and shows detainee where to have a seat. Interrogator ask, "you good, need anything?". Interrogator instructs someone outside the door, "bring this man some smokes and a cup of coffee." Guard slings his weapon and starts giving the detainee a shoulder massage to help him relax. Interrogator "you comfortable?" "Ok, good. Look we really need to know where that weapons cache is" Detainee: "I'm not telling you anything" Interrogator:"Ok sorry to have bothered you, guards release this man."
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Paratrooper said:
This response seems silly as I clearly chose in the poll that it was torture. My point in response on this topic is our hands are pretty much tied behind our back because everything is considered torture now.

I guess this is how an interrogation should go in liberal fantasy land:

Dude walks into the interrogation room. Guard is instructed to remove flex cuffs, and shows detainee where to have a seat. Interrogator ask, "you good, need anything?". Interrogator instructs someone outside the door, "bring this man some smokes and a cup of coffee." Guard slings his weapon and starts giving the detainee a shoulder massage to help him relax. Interrogator "you comfortable?" "Ok, good. Look we really need to know where that weapons cache is" Detainee: "I'm not telling you anything" Interrogator:"Ok sorry to have bothered you, guards release this man."
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It's not how you voted, but what you said, and what you say here. There ar emethods between torture and what you paint here. We don't define more things as torture today; the effort instead has been to define less as torture.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:
That's actually not true, and not what his links say. Even those who make the claim don't make a direct one. They say back during Bush term a link was made, but not direct.
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They say that a variety of collections were necessary to putting it all together, and one of those was the information that came out of enhanced interrogation.

Thought it's not exactly like the OBL raid was the only piece of actionable intel that came out of enhanced interrogation; that program saved countless lives by allowing us to stop attacks on US and British soil before they began. Again, as heads of the CIA from both parties have stated.

You can argue that torture is never morally acceptable if you wish, and it's certainly a defensible position. But to argue that enhanced interrogation and/or torture isn't effective does not match reality. I have seen torture work. Even John McCain, deeply passionate advocate that he is, admits in his book that everyone broke, and gave up information. Everyone breaks. Hell, KSM was glad that he had broken, because it took away his religious duty to resist.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

cpwill said:
They say that a variety of collections were necessary to putting it all together, and one of those was the information that came out of enhanced interrogation.

Thought it's not exactly like the OBL raid was the only piece of actionable intel that came out of enhanced interrogation; that program saved countless lives by allowing us to stop attacks on US and British soil before they began. Again, as heads of the CIA from both parties have stated.

You can argue that torture is never morally acceptable if you wish, and it's certainly a defensible position. But to argue that enhanced interrogation and/or torture isn't effective does not match reality. I have seen torture work. Even John McCain, deeply passionate advocate that he is, admits in his book that everyone broke, and gave up information. Everyone breaks. Hell, KSM was glad that he had broken, because it took away his religious duty to resist.
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I'm sorry, but it isn't effective. They did not get critical information from the torture, and what little they got, they got the same information and more without it. When you consider how clearly we can document not only misinformation, but misinformation that we USED, to our detriment, to argue it is effective is what is really foolish. No one argues everyone doesn't break, even the innocnet confess, and even those who know knowing give something. This is the problem with it. And to say you really can figure out what is true and what isn't flies in the face of verifiable evidence. We used al Libi. That is a fact. Not at all questionable, which you cannot say about your OBL claim here.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm sorry, but it isn't effective. They did not get critical information from the torture, and what little they got, they got the same information and more without it. When you consider how clearly we can document not only misinformation, but misinformation that we USED, to our detriment, to argue it is effective is what is really foolish. No one argues everyone doesn't break, even the innocnet confess, and even those who know knowing give something. This is the problem with it. And to say you really can figure out what is true and what isn't flies in the face of verifiable evidence. We used al Libi. That is a fact. Not at all questionable, which you cannot say about your OBL claim here.
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These are simply talking points. If it was not effective it would not be used. Can a detainee give false information? Certainly but they can by other means as well.
 
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