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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?

  • Total voters
    128
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

the_recruit said:
Define "effective". It's useful for extracting information, absolutely. You just have to be mindful of the fact that they may be lying and should act accordingly. As such, generally, only information that's verifiable is of much use. For example,

"Where is the bomb hidden?"

"ouch. under seat 16F at the stadium."

Then you go have a guy check under seat 16F at the stadium for the bomb. If he was telling the truth, then you diffused the bomb. If he was lying, not a big deal. You don't just go bomb some random house because a guy being tortured said osama was hiding there. You treat the information as a potential lead and verify it first.
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There is only dubious anecdotal evidence it produces any useful information. As has been pointed out, despite decades of use, there is still no scientific evidence that torture produces useful information.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
It's not that simple. Direct questions are generally avoided, because it gives the POW control of the interrogation.
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dude. it was a deliberately over-simplified example.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
Dubious anecdotal evidence is all? Looks like the author had it right. Good reason to put an end to the practice.

Thank you President Obama!
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How are you going to say all I have is anecdotal evidence, when that's all your evidence is? Plus, he didn't end it, he prohibited it. The CIA still holds an unknown number of detainees at facilities called Black Sites. The locations of which, and activities preformed within are unknown, even to Obama. I think it's safe to say that they aren't making cotton candy.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
How are you going to say all I have is anecdotal evidence, when that's all your evidence is?
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That was the author's point, all we have is dubious anecdotal evidence it is effective for providing useful information, despite decades of use and statistics.

Plus, he didn't end it, he prohibited it.
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And the difference between ending it and prohibiting it is?

The CIA still holds an unknown number of detainees at facilities called Black Sites. The locations of which, and activities preformed within are unknown, even to Obama. I think it's safe to say that they aren't making cotton candy.
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You realize there are interrogation methods other than torture, correct? So, other than your imagination, what evidence do you have that the US is still torturing prisoners?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
There is only dubious anecdotal evidence it produces any useful information. As has been pointed out, despite decades of use, there is still no scientific evidence that torture produces useful information.
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Well, how would one even gather scientific evidence that supports or refutes the effectiveness of torture? Conducting a study in which you torture subjects is obviously out of the question. And compiling historical information on how often information obtained via torture turned out to be useful or not useful seems equally unlikely; since torture is largely conducted behind closed doors I doubt anybody would keep such incriminating records and even if they did exist obtaining such records would be difficult if not impossible.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

the_recruit said:
Well, how would one even gather scientific evidence that supports or refutes the effectiveness of torture? Conducting a study in which you torture subjects is obviously out of the question. And compiling historical information on how often information obtained via torture turned out to be useful or not useful seems equally unlikely; since torture is largely conducted behind closed doors I doubt anybody would keep such incriminating records and even if they did exist obtaining such records would be difficult if not impossible.
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If you you have 10,000 instances of torture over the decades of its use by the US, and 7,000 of those produced useful information, you would have evidence that torture is an effective means of getting information. Where is that evidence? If simply recording the accuracy of the practice is too shameful, than it is a certainty that the practice is too shameful for the US to continue. I very much admire the president for ending the ineffective and shameful practice!
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
And the difference between ending it and prohibiting it is?
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Did prohibiting narcotics make them go away?



You realize there are interrogation methods other than torture, correct? So, other than your imagination, what evidence do you have that the US is still torturing prisoners?
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Yes, and I've stated that. If you think prohibiting torture means the CIA doesn't do it anymore, you don't know anything about the CIA. Project BLUEBIRD and Project CHATTER are the beginnings of the CIA's long history of interrogation by torture programs. It was followed by Project ARTICHOKE, which introduced the experimentation of different chemicals, including getting people addicted to morphine, and hypnosis on subjects. This evolved into projects MKDELTA MKULTRA and MKNAOMI, which were very illegal then and now, and also brought about the introduction of LSD and very horrible torture techniques (including waterboarding and electroshock) using orphans, prostitutes, and abductees both here in the US, and overseas. After a leak, it was halted in 1975, but that didn't stop them from conducting MKCHICKWIT, and MKOFTEN. While still conducting research on the effects of different chemicals in torture and interrogation, MKOFTEN allegedly included research into psychics and telekinesis. Fast forward to 2004, they're still doing the same ****, and you honestly think they're going to stop now because Obama said "we don't do that"? We've been doing that since the end of WWII.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
Did prohibiting narcotics make them go away?
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There is a chain of command in the military unlike that in civilian life. Following orders is strictly enforced in the military. What makes you such a big proponent of torture, without any evidence that is effective? I would have thought a Libertarian would be opposed to torture.




Yes, and I've stated that. If you think prohibiting torture means the CIA doesn't do it anymore, you don't know anything about the CIA.
Project BLUEBIRD and Project CHATTER are the beginnings of the CIA's long history of interrogation by torture programs. It was followed by Project ARTICHOKE, which introduced the experimentation of different chemicals, including getting people addicted to morphine, and hypnosis on subjects. This evolved into projects MKDELTA MKULTRA and MKNAOMI, which were very illegal then and now, and also brought about the introduction of LSD and very horrible torture techniques (including waterboarding and electroshock) using orphans, prostitutes, and abductees both here in the US, and overseas. After a leak, it was halted in 1975, but that didn't stop them from conducting MKCHICKWIT, and MKOFTEN. While still conducting research on the effects of different chemicals in torture and interrogation, MKOFTEN allegedly included research into psychics and telekinesis. Fast forward to 2004, they're still doing the same ****, and you honestly think they're going to stop now because Obama said "we don't do that"? We've been doing that since the end of WWII.
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Because it was allowed through the chain of command. No doubt we have much to be ashamed of in our past, but again I ask, other than your imagination, what is your evidence do you have that torture is still being carried out by the US today?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
Their is a chain of command in the military unlike that in civilian life. Following orders is strictly enforced in the military. What makes you such a big proponent of torture, without any evidence that is effective? I would have thought a Libertarian would be opposed to torture.
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The CIA isn't the Military. I don't think it should be abolished because it does work in certain circumstances, and war is not the time to go soft.

Because it was allowed through the chain of command. No doubt we have much to be ashamed of in our past, but again I ask, other than your imagination, what is your evidence do you have that torture is still being carried out by the US today?
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What proof do I have that they still conduct torture? Because they continued to do it for 37 years after being expressly forbidden to continue these projects by Congress. The only detainee camps that are known about are Guantanamo Bay, and Abu Ghraib, which are monitored. The unknown sites containing an unknown number of prisoners are not monitored or regulated, and what happens in those facilities is unknown. Given the CIA's long history of torture and human experimentation, what do you think they're doing in places where they have absolutely no oversight from Congress, the President, or even the Secretary of Defense?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
The CIA isn't the Military. I don't think it should be abolished because it does work in certain circumstances, and war is not the time to go soft.
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They are still under the command of the president. You have provided no evidence that torture provides useful information. Tell me, did you support the war on Iraq?



What proof do I have that they still conduct torture? Because they continued to do it for 37 years after being expressly forbidden to continue these projects by Congress. The only detainee camps that are known about are Guantanamo Bay, and Abu Ghraib, which are monitored. The unknown sites containing an unknown number of prisoners are not monitored or regulated, and what happens in those facilities is unknown. Given the CIA's long history of torture and human experimentation, what do you think they're doing in places where they have absolutely no oversight from Congress, the President, or even the Secretary of Defense?
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Thanks for your speculation. If you find any evidence to back up your claim. please let me know.

I prefer a president that openly condemns and prohibits torture to one that openly supports and defends torture.

George W. Bush Defends Waterboarding: Would Waterboard Khalid Sheik Mohammed Again

"Waterboarding is a simulated drowning technique that the Obama administration considers torture. Bush acknowledged Wednesday that the U.S. used the harsh interrogation technique on Khalid Sheik Mohammed and said he would "do it again to save lives."

George W. Bush Defends Waterboarding: Would Waterboard Khalid Sheik Mohammed Again


Romney’s Fundraiser With Cheney Highlights His Embrace Of A Bush-Era Foreign Policy

"Romney agrees. His aides have said he does not believe waterboarding is torture,” and refused to rule out the technique’s use by a potential Romney administration."

Waterboarding | ThinkProgress



Bachmann: Obama 'clearly wrong' to end use of waterboarding

"The Minnesota congresswoman had attacked the president over the weekend for discontinuing the practice, saying that it effectively led to the ACLU running the CIA. But Obama defended his decision at a press conference Saturday in Hawaii."

“We did the right thing by ending that practice,” Obama said."

Bachmann: Obama 'clearly wrong' to end use of waterboarding - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Yes, though it is a fairly mild form of torture.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

CaptainCourtesy said:
Of course it is. That's never REALLY been the question. The question is should it be used, anyway? THAT'S the REAL question that people want to avoid. The question in the OP is a smokescreen.
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I'm interested in why the people who oppose it's use want to claim "it's never effective". To me, that is the smokescreen. Does your (in the general sense) objection to it rest on whether it's effective or not? If the objection is based on moral or ethical grounds, whether enhanced interrogation is actually effective in gaining solid info should be completely irrelevant.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

By the definitions of torture some are putting forward, prisoners are tortured in Japanese jails daily. They are forced to kneel in the middle of their cells for hours on end, and psychological pressure combined with physical discomforts are used to push them to sign confessions.


Let's don't even mention Mexican prisons, and what goes on in jail in some middle eastern nations.

Instead lets focus on how evil the USA is for having been desperate enough to resort to mild, non-harmful torture to find out if terrorists were planning to murder thousands or tens of thousands more Americans in the first few years after 9/11. (/irony)
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Goshin said:
By the definitions of torture some are putting forward, prisoners are tortured in Japanese jails daily. They are forced to kneel in the middle of their cells for hours on end, and psychological pressure combined with physical discomforts are used to push them to sign confessions.


Let's don't even mention Mexican prisons, and what goes on in jail in some middle eastern nations.

Instead lets focus on how evil the USA is for having been desperate enough to resort to mild, non-harmful torture to find out if terrorists were planning to murder thousands or tens of thousands more Americans in the first few years after 9/11. (/irony)
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We don't control policy or elect representatives in Japan and Mexico. We do in the US however. We have to get our own house in order before we start preaching to others, otherwise we have zero credibility.

No one has ever been convinced of much with the, do as I say, not as I do, approach.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

It is most certainly torture.

Two things.

1. The idea that torture never works is ludicrous.

2. The idea it's always nessecary is equally ludicrous.

Now, I am of the persuasion that those who don't consider it torture, do so in part, whether they realize it or not to save face. If its not torture, then they don't have to feel bad their nation engaged in it.

However it is torture and if thats what you feel you have to do to defend your nation, then you will do it anyway, just stop skirting around the issue, just say it outright "we will torture people to defend ourselves".

Stop trying to pretend you have the moral high ground.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

X Factor said:
I'm interested in why the people who oppose it's use want to claim "it's never effective". To me, that is the smokescreen. Does your (in the general sense) objection to it rest on whether it's effective or not? If the objection is based on moral or ethical grounds, whether enhanced interrogation is actually effective in gaining solid info should be completely irrelevant.
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Why can't it be both?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
We don't control policy or elect representatives in Japan and Mexico. We do in the US however. We have to get our own house in order before we start preaching to others, otherwise we have zero credibility.
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This is a *****'s approach to world affairs....

When we prevented the Allies from losing Word War I did we have our affairs in order? When we bankrolled the Allies, invaded Europe, and defeated Japan did we have our affairs in order? When we prevented the Soviet Communists from achieving global superiority over the West did we we have our affairs in order? And should we really be giving any good will to any starving or humanitarian disastered people when we have our own health care issues? With Native Americans being slaughtered, blacks enslaved, women without votes, blacks without civil rights, how dare we do anything for the world and protect our global interests, right? Your cry is a whine to abandon responsibility and good morality masked in superior self righteousness and it pains me that people like you benefit from people like me.

The point is that nobody anywhere, to include governments, ever have their affairs in order. Using it as an excuse to legitimize cowardice, near sightedness, and stupidity is as transparent today as it has been throughout history whenever a spectator citizen decided to pretend he is above others in the game....while benefitting from the "evil" of others who protect them.

At what poi nt will America have its affairs in order? Utopia? The Leftists depraved idea to excuse one of responsibility? The most powerful nation in history must cower behind shields and walls because Leftists, who should have been born elsewhere, cling to the bull**** dream that China and the Soviet Union proved a failure?

....or did this bit of boldness once again fly into deaf ears? Anything for the bull **** dream.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Anagram said:
Torture: the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

I'd say it fits quite easily within that definition. So, yes.
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I was waterboarded and I didn't find it to be painful to the point that I would say it was "excruciating". But of course that is subjective.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Manc Skipper said:
Which orifice requires plugging?
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You just have to take the red pill.

The track record is clear. Why is it that Liberals ignre GITMO today? Why is it that Liberals ignore civilian deaths today via escallated UAV attacks in soveriegn nations? Why is it that Liberals ignore the fact that this Presidential administration has brought more charges on leakers than any President going back to Nixon? What happened to the promise of transparency and rejoicing over whistle blowers under Bush? What happened to the whines of soveriegnty and GITMO under Bush?

The truth is that Liberals are the quickest to dismiss what they pretend to believe in as soon as their hype proves to be other than the dream. Kennedy was dubbed "Camelot" despite his banging out behind his wife and landing us in Vietnam. Clinton was completely worshipped despite his banging out of interns (I guess Liberal women stopped caring about such deceits and betrayals in their men). And when it has come to Obama, everything they bitched about under Bush has been ignored under Obama despite escallation.

With prisoners in American prisons being raped and beat up constantly, do you actually think Obama's "no torture" statements mean that captured terrorist with information are being taken to Disney Land for nightly visits to appease comfort?

HIstorically, nation protection and building has and will always involve the gutter, no matter how hard idiot Leftist dreamers in America pretend otherwise.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

While I said yes, I think the average persons idea of "torture" has evolved quite a bit.

Now getting less than 8 hours of sleep is torture, or not getting meals that meet your dietary preference, etc. These days people would consider being tickled or being forced to listen to Justin Bieber as torture.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

If it makes the victims feel like they're drowning, then yes, it's torture.
 
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