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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?

  • Total voters
    128
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
Sometimes. You don't just walk up to a prisoner tied to a chair and start wailing on him. It has to be done in conjunction with good interrogation techniques, by expert interrogators. If you don't know what you're doing, then you fail the mission, because that prisoner locks up, and you won't get anything out of him.
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A good interrogator doesn't need torture to be effective.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

CaptainCourtesy said:
There isn't any real evidence that demonstrates that torture is an effective means of gathering information. Torture IS effective in getting a subject to do or say what you WANT them to say, but that may or may not be accurate information. There really is no way to truly test torture effectiveness as any "study" would be unethical.
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A good interrogator doesn't need torture to be effective.
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It won't be found now because it's been turned into a politicized topic. Torture isn't limited to inflicting direct pain. It can consist of sensory deprivation, exposure, sleep deprivation, starvation, and so on. It's meant to wear down a persons ability to resist interrogation by tiring them out, since uniformed forces and combatants are trained to resist interrogation from day 1 in training. It's not the same as interrogating a civilian.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
It won't be found now because it's been turned into a politicized topic. Torture isn't limited to inflicting direct pain. It can consist of sensory deprivation, exposure, sleep deprivation, starvation, and so on. It's meant to wear down a persons ability to resist interrogation by tiring them out, since uniformed forces and combatants are trained to resist interrogation from day 1 in training. It's not the same as interrogating a civilian.
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That's true... all of those things can be considered torture and all are used to tire a person out and make them more susceptible to suggestion and compliance. It's similar to a form of "brainwashing" that cults may use... however, what this tends to do is make one more pliable, not necessarily more forthcoming.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

CaptainCourtesy said:
That's true... all of those things can be considered torture and all are used to tire a person out and make them more susceptible to suggestion and compliance. It's similar to a form of "brainwashing" that cults may use... however, what this tends to do is make one more pliable, not necessarily more forthcoming.
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Both the allies and axis powers used it with mixed results. It was done a lot during the Cold War too, with equally mixed results. It's not 100% effective, because each scenario is different, as all people have different weaknesses and tolerances. However, I don't think it should be done away with because it has its place.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Goshin said:
It could be construed as such, by a strict definition.

But "torture" can range from psychological tricks to things like pulling out fingernails and slow-roasting human beings over hot coals, or breaking them on the wheel as in the middle ages. As tortures go, water boarding is pretty mild. We do it to our own soldiers in SERE school.... they hate it but it does no lasting harm.

Should we be using it as an interrogation technique for dangerous terrorists who want to kill as many Americans as they can?

That's actually a tough question. If you think about 9/11 you'll understand the temptation.... if you think about how much worse bioterrorism or nuclear terrorism could be, you might find yourself considering things you'd never consider in everyday life.


In short, necessity and desperation are the bitch twin sisters of moral compromise.... and until your ass has been in a really tight spot, you don't know how far those two bitches may push you.
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The trick is in how you push the twin bitches back. :)
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
Both the allies and axis powers used it with mixed results. It was done a lot during the Cold War too, with equally mixed results. It's not 100% effective, because each scenario is different, as all people have different weaknesses and tolerances. However, I don't think it should be done away with because it has its place.
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I have mixed feelings on it. On one side, it IS highly unethical and it's reliability is questionable. Also, the reaction from both the public and from the "other side" in regarding torture could create consequences that significantly diminish any possible returns of torture. On the other, both fear and pain can be motivators.

This issue has been debated at DP for several years. Whether waterboarding is torture or not has never really interested me. It is. Denying that is silly. It's the ethics, effectiveness, and impact of the use of torture that is far more fascinating.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
Both the allies and axis powers used it with mixed results. It was done a lot during the Cold War too, with equally mixed results. It's not 100% effective, because each scenario is different, as all people have different weaknesses and tolerances. However, I don't think it should be done away with because it has its place.
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As pointed out previously, "In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn't any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works."
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

CaptainCourtesy said:
I have mixed feelings on it. On one side, it IS highly unethical and it's reliability is questionable. Also, the reaction from both the public and from the "other side" in regarding torture could create consequences that significantly diminish any possible returns of torture. On the other, both fear and pain can be motivators.

This issue has been debated at DP for several years. Whether waterboarding is torture or not has never really interested me. It is. Denying that is silly. It's the ethics, effectiveness, and impact of the use of torture that is far more fascinating.
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Our current enemies will torture and kill POWs regardless of what we do, but that's not a reason for or against torture. I want in kept in play because it does work when done correctly. Waterboarding is torture simply because it's inflicting suffering on another to coerce information, and I'll never say otherwise. The only thing I question is whether it can be used effectively, or is there a better method. I recall hearing about Germans who used to have POWs stripped of their clothes, and placed into concrete rooms where there was no protection from the German winter. After a couple hours, they would give the POW back their clothes and begin the interrogation again. If it was unsuccessful, they did it again, but for longer and longer periods of time each interval.

They also used deprivation to a better success. Lock them in a room with no watch, no windows, no way of telling where they are, whether it's day or night, or when you'll ever get out. It disorients the mind without having to exert any real effort, and doesn't create an instant association between interrogator and torture. All it does is disorient, create an illusion, and puts all the power and control in the hands of the interrogator.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

1. Definition of Torture

Torture includes such practices as searing with hot irons, burning at the stake, electric shock treatment to the genitals, cutting out parts of the body, e.g. tongue, entrails or genitals, severe beatings, suspending by the legs with arms tied behind back, applying thumbscrews, inserting a needle under the fingernails, drilling through an unanesthetized tooth, making a person crouch for hours in the ‘Z’ position, waterboarding (submersion in water or dousing to produce the sensation of drowning), and denying food, water or sleep for days or weeks on end.[3]

All of these practices presuppose that the torturer has control over the victim's body, e.g. the victim is strapped to a chair.Torture (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
As pointed out previously, "In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn't any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works."
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From an article written by an author who self identifies as a "pragmatic humanist", which is presenting points from another article from the San Francisco Chronicle. the link to the San Fran Chronicle does not work, so I cannot make any assessment on the credibility of that article, though I already know it's a biased newspaper, because I lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and read it regularly back in my more liberal days.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

X Factor said:
If it is torture, it's more psychological than physical, and compared to, say, hooking someone up to a car battery with jumper cables, I'll vote no. Everything is relative and there is no question that these techniques yielded some valuable information.
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actually, hooking someone up across a 12 volt car battery wouldn't cause them any discomfort at all.

just sayin...
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

CaptainCourtesy said:
Of course it is. That's never REALLY been the question. The question is should it be used, anyway? THAT'S the REAL question that people want to avoid. The question in the OP is a smokescreen.
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absolutely. i kind of view it as a self-defeating argument, really. if you want to argue that waterboarding isn't torture, then why would it be useful as an interrogation technique? If it's as benign as water running over your face in the shower, then why would it drive reluctant interrogees to surrender information?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
From an article written by an author who self identifies as a "pragmatic humanist", which is presenting points from another article from the San Francisco Chronicle. the link to the San Fran Chronicle does not work, so I cannot make any assessment on the credibility of that article, though I already know it's a biased newspaper, because I lived in the Bay Area for 3 years and read it regularly back in my more liberal days.
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You can point us then to scientific evidence that shows torture is an effective form of interrogation?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

the_recruit said:
absolutely. i kind of view it as a self-defeating argument, really. if you want to argue that waterboarding isn't torture, then why would it be useful as an interrogation technique? If it's as benign as water running over your face in the shower, then why would it drive reluctant interrogees to surrender information?
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Waterboarding is done by placing a towel, or a piece of fabric over a persons face, then pouring a bucket of water over their face to induce a sensation similar to drowning, and it does not feel good.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
Waterboarding is done by placing a towel, or a piece of fabric over a persons face, then pouring a bucket of water over their face to induce a sensation similar to drowning, and it does not feel good.
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...............:neutral:..................
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
You can point us then to scientific evidence that shows torture is an effective form of interrogation?
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If any credible resources exist, which I doubt due to the nature of torture, and the fact that the primary organization that conducts such interrogations is the CIA.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

the_recruit said:
actually, hooking someone up across a 12 volt car battery wouldn't cause them any discomfort at all.

just sayin...
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True one 12 volt battery cannot electrocute you. But you can heat up a piece of metal and burn somebody with it. Or you could use 4 12 volt batteries which could gain you the needed 48+ volts to penetrate the skin. Or just use more and do the job good.

Or you could just put the jumper cable on ones tongue and the other up their ass and use one battery to do the job, since then the areas would be wet which is good for conductivity.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

the_recruit said:
...............:neutral:..................
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It's not supposed to be pleasant. It's meant to wear down a trained combatants ability to resist interrogation. More simply put, it strips them of the mindset that tells us that "everything is going to be ok".
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
If any credible resources exist, which I doubt due to the nature of torture, and the fact that the primary organization that conducts such interrogations is the CIA.
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So all you can point to is dubious anecdotal evidence that torture is effective? As the author noted, "In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn't any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works."

I am glad this president put an end to the US practice of waterboarding.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
So all you can point to is dubious anecdotal evidence that torture is effective? As the author noted, "In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn't any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works."
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That's what all evidence for, and against it is. Anecdotal. No organization in their right mind is going to compile statistics based on operations that aren't supposed to exist.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
You can point us then to scientific evidence that shows torture is an effective form of interrogation?
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Define "effective". It's useful for extracting information, absolutely. You just have to be mindful of the fact that they may be lying and should act accordingly. As such, generally, only information that's verifiable is of much use. For example,

"Where is the bomb hidden?"

"ouch. under seat 16F at the stadium."

Then you go have a guy check under seat 16F at the stadium for the bomb. If he was telling the truth, then you diffused the bomb. If he was lying, not a big deal. You don't just go bomb some random house because a guy being tortured said osama was hiding there. You treat the information as a potential lead and verify it first.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
It's not supposed to be pleasant. It's meant to wear down a trained combatants ability to resist interrogation. More simply put, it strips them of the mindset that tells us that "everything is going to be ok".
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..........:neutral:..........
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Lokiate said:
That's what all evidence for, and against it is. Anecdotal. No organization in their right mind is going to compile statistics based on operations that aren't supposed to exist.
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Dubious anecdotal evidence is all? Looks like the author had it right. Good reason to put an end to the practice.

Thank you President Obama!
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

the_recruit said:
Define "effective". It's useful for extracting information, absolutely. You just have to be mindful of the fact that they may be lying and should act accordingly. As such, generally, only information that's verifiable is of much use. For example,

"Where is the bomb hidden?"

"ouch. under seat 16F at the stadium."

Then you go have a guy check under seat 16F at the stadium for the bomb. If he was telling the truth, then you diffused the bomb. If he was lying, not a big deal. You don't just go bomb some random house because a guy being tortured said osama was hiding there. You treat the information as a potential lead and verify it first.
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It's not that simple. Direct questions are generally avoided, because it gives the POW control of the interrogation.
 
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