Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

Catawba said:

You can try to spin it any way (or color) you want. It doesn't change the fact that a majority of Democrats supported the Public option, which the public supported, vs a majority of Republicans that opposed the public option.

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???

The quote you responded to...with your talk of the public option...was my response about the mandate.

Two different subjects, eh?

Mycroft said:

LOL!!!

Who the hell cares about no tax pledges?

The Republicans don't want tax increases because it's the wrong thing to do.

Talk about "feeding the beast"...that's what you'll get if they raise taxes on anyone. Feeding the government spending beast.

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There may be some republcians who want government to fail, but I think most want to honor their committment. Whiel feeding the beast was a good sound bite, republicans are aprt of the beast. No way aorund it. But the pledge makes nothing happen. It's like zero tolerance laws; it removes reason from the equation.

Mycroft said:

???

The quote you responded to...with your talk of the public option...was my response about the mandate.

Two different subjects, eh?

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You wish to withdraw your comment about the public option now that I've shown a majority of Democrats supported the public option?

Catawba said:

You wish to withdraw your comment about the public option now that I've shown a majority of Democrats supported the public option?

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Not at all.

Not when the very article you quoted from implied that the support y'all speak of wasn't really there. Oh, yeah...they all publicly express support when there was no chance of getting it...but when they DID have the chance, they are suddenly silent. It was all just political posturing...something the Democrats excel at.

Boo Radley said:

There may be some republcians who want government to fail, but I think most want to honor their committment. Whiel feeding the beast was a good sound bite, republicans are aprt of the beast. No way aorund it. But the pledge makes nothing happen. It's like zero tolerance laws; it removes reason from the equation.

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1. Seriously, I don't think ANY politician wants the government to fail...not Republicans...not Democrats. But you go right ahead with your hyperbolic insinuations...makes for a good forum post and a good campaign soundbite.

2. "Feeding the beast" was YOUR soundbite. And, sure, the Republicans are a part of the beast. But, at least, they are trying to put the beast on a diet. The Democrats only want to shovel more down it's throat.

3. At this point...under these economic conditions...zero tolerance is a good thing if it can break the cycle of spending more and taxing more.

Mycroft said:

Not at all.

Not when the very article you quoted from implied that the support y'all speak of wasn't really there. Oh, yeah...they all publicly express support when there was no chance of getting it...but when they DID have the chance, they are suddenly silent. It was all just political posturing...something the Democrats excel at.

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LOL! They put it in writing. How many Republicans put in writing that they supported the public option that a majority of voters wanted?

Mycroft said:

If a budget is passed for the next fiscal year that reduces overall spending, then that's the budget. If any changes are made to it in the course of that fiscal year, we will have on record who changed the budget. This scenario is unacceptable to the Democrats because they won't take responsibility for their actions. They only want to blame Republicans. ... ...

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Democrats "only want to blame Republicans"; I take that as the objective because it is stated as such by many sources besides you. When I watch FOX News or listen to Rush I recall hearing is blaming, more blaming, then finishing with blaming. I listen and find that content is not necessary and this is because things are so simple to understand. The reason that I don't understand the Republican POV is an engineer like me sees a bunch of interdependencies in our economy that most don't want to work on or admit exist. The complexity is there. It was not created by any party. Sorry, the system even has various time delays in the feedback paths besides complex inputs. And your understanding is "They only want to blame Republicans."

Mycroft said:

1. Seriously, I don't think ANY politician wants the government to fail...not Republicans...not Democrats. But you go right ahead with your hyperbolic insinuations...makes for a good forum post and a good campaign soundbite.

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While a clear minority, I think some do. It keeps them provided with evidence.

2. "Feeding the beast" was YOUR soundbite. And, sure, the Republicans are a part of the beast. But, at least, they are trying to put the beast on a diet. The Democrats only want to shovel more down it's throat.

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I believe I used the term slightly differently.

3. At this point...under these economic conditions...zero tolerance is a good thing if it can break the cycle of spending more and taxing more.

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Only if you want the problem to continue and get worse. Though some will forget about it when a republican gets into office.

TurtleDude said:

the interesting point I have made for years that is never addressed is the following

If the middle class is told that there is a deficit and they are told that only the rich should be taxed more to pay for it, the middle class won't worry about the deficit. They will assume the government can keep on spending on them since the rich will pay the bills.

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Yours is a false assumption.

First off, you speak as if the Middle-Class doesn't care about the nation's deficit. Fact is WE DO! WE care a great deal about it because WE make up the bulk of the "labor force". As such, WE will be that demographic group who works to pay down the deficit over the course of the next generation or two.

Second, you assume that the bulk of the Middle-Class has their hand out to the government and have some vendetta against the Wealth-Class. Nothing could be further from the truth! Middle-Class Americans as a whole don't hate the wealthy. However, we do see that there is an income disparity between the Wealth-Class and the Middle-Class which has been widely publizied. Only those who ignore this fact will discredit it as untrue.

The issue isn't whether or not one economic group has specific expectations of another, i.e., "the rich will pay the bills". The issue is "national affordability", i.e., can this nation afford to continue in its current economic policies that favor the Wealth-Class over all others where or politicians and many of our nation's citizens realize that said policies are not economically sustainable. Sure, our government spends too much. The current Administration agrees! Unfortunately, the pundits have done a masterful job of convincing the public that the needless, wasteful spending continues under a Democrat president when there has been evidence to the contrary.

Objective Voice said:

Yours is a false assumption.

First off, you speak as if the Middle-Class doesn't care about the nation's deficit. Fact is WE DO! WE care a great deal about it because WE make up the bulk of the "labor force". As such, WE will be that demographic group who works to pay down the deficit over the course of the next generation or two.

Second, you assume that the bulk of the Middle-Class has their hand out to the government and have some vendetta against the Wealth-Class. Nothing could be further from the truth! Middle-Class Americans as a whole don't hate the wealthy. However, we do see that there is an income disparity between the Wealth-Class and the Middle-Class which has been widely publizied. Only those who ignore this fact will discredit it as untrue.

The issue isn't whether or not one economic group has specific expectations of another, i.e., "the rich will pay the bills". The issue is "national affordability", i.e., can this nation afford to continue in its current economic policies that favor the Wealth-Class over all others where or politicians and many of our nation's citizens realize that said policies are not economically sustainable. Sure, our government spends too much. The current Administration agrees! Unfortunately, the pundits have done a masterful job of convincing the public that the needless, wasteful spending continues under a Democrat president when there has been evidence to the contrary.

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the middle class drives most of the government spending.

most of what the government does is not sustainable

only when the middle class starts punishing high spending politicians will the deficit have a chance to be diminished

TurtleDude said:

the middle class drives most of the government spending.

most of what the government does is not sustainable

only when the middle class starts punishing high spending politicians will the deficit have a chance to be diminished

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For 30 years the 1% and their lackeys the Republicans accumulate massive debt on excessive military spending, optional wars and tax cuts for the wealthy, and now they reckon it is the middle class that should suffer to pay for those excesses.


Sounds like you've got yourself a winning argument there! :lamo

Catawba said:

For 30 years the 1% and their lackeys the Republicans accumulate massive debt on excessive military spending, optional wars and tax cuts for the wealthy, and now they reckon it is the middle class that should suffer to pay for those excesses.


Sounds like you've got yourself a winning argument there! :lamo

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still wanting others to pay for your existence?

i want everyone to try to become the top 1 percent

you want everyone to give up and quit

TurtleDude said:

still wanting others to pay for your existence?

i want everyone to try to become the top 1 percent

you want everyone to give up and quit

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Could explain the mathematics involved of everyone being in the top 1%?

Abolishing the Bush tax cuts are meaningless to the current economy. If the Obama government receives more tax payer generated revenue do you really think they will use it to pay off the debt?

haymarket said:

Could explain the mathematics involved of everyone being in the top 1%?

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Never said they could, and having trained hard for the olympics I know most of us never made it let alone get a gold medal

but I was several time all american and two time America Cup winner as a result. While you might not get your goals the giving it your best shot results in other rewards

same with trying your best to be prosperous.

I argue that even if you don't make it to the top one percent, you are better off to give it your best shot than to sit back and whine that the game is rigged and there is no use in trying

Μολὼν λαβέ;1060738371 said:

Abolishing the Bush tax cuts are meaningless to the current economy. If the Obama government receives more tax payer generated revenue do you really think they will use it to pay off the debt?

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Obama needs the tax hikes to convince the weak minded that this additional revenue (which might not even materialize from a tax hike) justifies Obama spending more money to buy the votes of the weak minded

TurtleDude said:

Never said they could, and having trained hard for the olympics I know most of us never made it let alone get a gold medal

but I was several time all american and two time America Cup winner as a result. While you might not get your goals the giving it your best shot results in other rewards

same with trying your best to be prosperous.

I argue that even if you don't make it to the top one percent, you are better off to give it your best shot than to sit back and whine that the game is rigged and there is no use in trying

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Dangling a lie in front of someone is dishonest in the extreme.

haymarket said:

Dangling a lie in front of someone is dishonest in the extreme.

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that lie in your opinion being?

TurtleDude said:

that lie in your opinion being?

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That everyone should strive to be in the 1%. Not everyone thinks being rich and wealthy is the be all and end all of our purpose here on the planet.

You are proposing a fools errand.

TurtleDude said:

still wanting others to pay for your existence?

i want everyone to try to become the top 1 percent

you want everyone to give up and quit

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Nope, just want a better economy. Most of the debt was due to excessive military spending, optional wars and tax cuts for the wealthy, and now they reckon it is the middle class that should suffer to pay for those excesses, which will hurt the economy even more.

As James Carville noted, "Its the economy stupid!"

haymarket said:

That everyone should strive to be in the 1%. Not everyone thinks being rich and wealthy is the be all and end all of our purpose here on the planet.

You are proposing a fools errand.

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you seem to have a difficult time distinguishing between an opinion and a fact

this is why i said

TurtleDude said:

I argue that even if you don't make it to the top one percent, you are better off to give it your best shot than to sit back and whine that the game is rigged and there is no use in trying

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understand now

its my opinion you are better off to try and fail than to sit back and give up

TurtleDude said:

you seem to have a difficult time distinguishing between an opinion and a fact

this is why i said




understand now

its my opinion you are better off to try and fail than to sit back and give up

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Your statement is based on the false premise that there are only two choices before mankind
1- to be in the top 1% of economic earners , or
2 - sit back and give up

You need to research Logical Fallacies. This will help you get started and avoid such mistakes in the future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies

this deals specifically with the error you made on this topic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy

TurtleDude said:

the middle class drives most of the government spending.

most of what the government does is not sustainable

only when the middle class starts punishing high spending politicians will the deficit have a chance to be diminished

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In one post you blame the Middle-Class as the drivers of government spending then you do an about face and blame politicans for govoernment spending run amok. You can't have it both ways. Either it's selfish, do-nothing-always-with-their-hand-out Middle-Class wage earners who insist on more and more government spending to cover for their irresponsibility or its politicians who run up the federal tab with bills with massive appropriations or excessive waste through ears-marks and the like. Which is it?

Personally, I think you're tagging the wrong segment of the population for your partisan attacks. It's not the Middle-Class you should be directing your anger. It's really those among the poorest of us who actually could excel to the Middle-Class but choose not to and live off the government dole. And before I'm mischaracterized, I do understand that there are those among us who are on government entitlement programs not because they want to be, but because they have no other choice. There are people out there with real problems and who through no fault of their own need help meeting their needs whether it's on health care or food stamps or whatever. The father who is self-employed but profits are low in a slow (downed) economy; the wife who suddenly becomes a single-parent because she just lost her husband to an unfortunate accident or divorce. The senior citizen who has a serious illness and needs his/her prescription medications to survive. The middle-aged adult who is suddenly diagnosed with a serious illness and can no longer work and, thus, can no longer pay for her health care.

There are people out there who have serious needs but do to no fault of their own look to government for assistance. But there are also folks out there who are lazy and don't want to do anything to change their circumstance. Believe me when I say I see the types of people I speak of every day. I listen to their stories; some are heartbreaking while others make you so damned angry you just want to shake them and yell, "Wake the (blank) up!" Regardless, it's not the Middle-Class that the economic drain, IMO. But I will give you credit for placing half the blame in the right place - wasteful appropriations by politicians. That we both can agree on.

Μολὼν λαβέ;1060738371 said:

Abolishing the Bush tax cuts are meaningless to the current economy. If the Obama government receives more tax payer generated revenue do you really think they will use it to pay off the debt?

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I'm so tired of hearing this argument. You self-appointed deficit hawks and defenders of responsible government are still living in the past. Nevermind that you didn't voice these same arguments when your side of the political ledger was spending money like tomorrow never mattered. It's only when the economy faces running over the fiscal cliff and a Democrat is in office do you suddenly begin to care about debts and deficits. It's such a bold-faced mischaracterization of what two of the last 3 Democrat Presidents have done - reduce the debt.

Fact is only 1 U.S. President has ever gotten this country completely out of debt: Andrew Jackson.

And for all the talk of Democrat Presidents starting new federal agencies or increasing federal spending, you guys on the Right completely ignore the fact that over the last 60 years Ike, Nixon, Reagan, GHW Bush and GW Bush all increased the debt AND/OR started new branches of governments. Yet, you want to blame Democrats for adding to the deficit only because they fell back on their no-more-spending, Pay-Go pledge under Reagan. Come on, man! Not all of us forget history but some of us do know how to put it in perspective.

TurtleDude said:

Obama needs the tax hikes to convince the weak minded that this additional revenue (which might not even materialize from a tax hike) justifies Obama spending more money to buy the votes of the weak minded

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In pretend partisan world. The fact is, you can't cut enough to erase the debt. Nor can you tax enough. It will require that we both cut taxes and cut spending. Or have a republicna win and the aprtisan's will forget about the debt again. :coffeepap