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"Free Trade" OR "Protectionism"

Free Trade or Protectionism?

  • Free Trade

    Votes: 25 64.1%
  • Protectionism

    Votes: 14 35.9%

  • Total voters
    39
Do you prefer a policy of "Free Trade", which means no tariffs on imports, or "Protectionism", which means tariffs are placed on imports.
I don't care which you do and in what measure ..

.. As long as whatever we do will bring stolen jobs back to Americans.

If that doesn't happen very soon, I can't begin to tell you the horrible death that awaits America.

If the idea of countryless corporatism frightens you, then stop focusing on either-or and take a long hard look at solving the major problems, the substance of the matter, without regard to the compratively meaningless form in which the best solution manifests.
 
I don't care which you do and in what measure ..

.. As long as whatever we do will bring stolen jobs back to Americans.

"Stolen jobs"? What the hell makes YOU entitled to those jobs more than people anywhere else in the world?
 
.. As long as whatever we do will bring stolen jobs back to Americans.

If that doesn't happen very soon, I can't begin to tell you the horrible death that awaits America.
Stolen is a highly subjective term, the truth of the matter is that a large percentage of those positions very likely would be economically unsustainable here stateside. Too many individuals seem to think that corporations invest and build up workforces overseas out of malicious intent or a "lack of patriotism" as some of our more quasi nationalist posters would like to imply, when the truth of the matter is that the profitability and enhanced diplomatic relations (both on economic and geopolitical terms) that stem from overseas investment affect the vast majority of American and foreign "working class" individuals in a overwhelmingly positive manner.

You do realize that a scant 4 years ago we were enjoying a unemployment rate of less than 5 percent correct? Did the onset of outsourcing and foreign investment somehow coincide with the housing collapse and ensuing recession? Or shall we chalk up your statement to hysterics and misinformation?
 
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"Stolen jobs"? What the hell makes YOU entitled to those jobs more than people anywhere else in the world?
Only a liberal would ask that question ..

.. No, wait -- a conservative would also ask it, too .. .. and a libertarian would as well ...

Thankfully, they're cumulatively a considerable minority in number, if not in power.

Now if only we can get the great silent majority to begin speaking out ...
 
So your solution is to bomb other countries in order to improve their working conditions? Umm. That MIGHT be a little counterproductive.

No, but we can take them over and force them into a proper work week. hahaha
 
The ethnocentrism, paternalism, arrogance, and subtle racism in this thread are truly sad. Some people are inclined to view foreigners from developing countries as silly little people who just don't understand what they "should" be earning, so they need some white Americans - in our infinite wisdom of THEIR needs - to stand up for them by making unreasonable demands and putting them out of work.

If your attitude is "**** them all," as one person in this thread stated, that's one thing. Trade barriers don't benefit us either, but at least that person was being honest about his attitude. Much more annoying are the people who pretend to CARE about living conditions in developing countries, then proceed to advocate policies that hurt them and frame them as victories for the little guy.

They can earn whatever they want and do whatever they want. It's not my job to bring them better working and environmental conditions. Yet, there is no problem levying against lack of labor and environmental laws when discussing international trade. I think one can make a very reasonable argument as to why foreign country's laws should play some impact on the levies against them.

If China wants to persist with its near slave labor, lax environmental conditions, and deplorable work conditions; so be it. And if we add a levy to account for that difference, so be it.
 
You do realize that a scant 4 years ago we were enjoying a unemployment rate of less than 5 percent correct?

That unemployment number is useless

Did the onset of outsourcing and foreign investment somehow coincide with the housing collapse and ensuing recession?

uh yeah

Or shall we chalk up your statement to hysterics and misinformation?
 
Stolen is a highly subjective term, the truth of the matter is that a large percentage of those positions very likely would be economically unsustainable here stateside. Too many individuals seem to think that corporations invest and build up workforces overseas out of malicious intent or a "lack of patriotism" as some of our more quasi nationalist posters would like to imply, when the truth of the matter is that the profitability and enhanced diplomatic relations (both on economic and geopolitical terms) that stem from overseas investment affect the vast majority of American and foreign "working class" individuals in a overwhelmingly positive manner.

You do realize that a scant 4 years ago we were enjoying a unemployment rate of less than 5 percent correct? Did the onset of outsourcing and foreign investment somehow coincide with the housing collapse and ensuing recession? Or shall we chalk up your statement to hysterics and misinformation?
Yes, "stolen" is a highly subjective term. It shouldn't be, but, with so many wingnuts in denial ...

Any malicious intent or lack of patriotism was likely unconscious and only on the left wing as manifest by the Multi-Cultural Internationalist mindset. The right wing Corporate Global Expansionists were only concerned about increasing profits by decreasing costs .. that's all they were concerned about .. nothing more .. nothing more whatsoever .. .. .

As to those jobs being unsustainable here, until the MCIs and CGEs are out of power, we'll never really know until we bring them back and see if, on their own, they sink, or swim as they had done for so many years.

As to "enhanced diplomatic relations", that's kind of like excusing our attack on Iraq in 2003 with "to nation-form a democracy" when we really just wanted to prevent our share of light, sweet Iraqi crude from being diverted to China; it's causally a non-starter.

As to your question about four years ago a five percent unemployment rate, four years ago the official rate was at 6.1, not 5.8, as there's always more than a month lag in reporting, as most of July 2008's information was not reported until the September 2008 report, but, regardless, the official rate is always considerably understated, considerably.

Outsourcing ramped up greatly during the early/middle of the past decade, and most of the true un- and under- employment percent reflected sub-primers' jobs in- and out- sourced to wage-slaves. So when owners of sub-primer mortagages saw the handwriting on the wall, they created those infamous securities .. and the rest is history, a Great Recessionary history that simply would not have been given a set stage had the in- and out- source-stealing of American jobs by wage-slaves and their owners never occurred.

America's time is running out.

If the jobs do not come back quickly, the continually accumulating dead-weight of increasing scores of millions of Americans without a full-time living wage job will most certainly create the greatest depression.
 
Precisely how would restricting economic relations with said country improve the living conditions of the aforementioned impoverished and underprivileged workforce?

Why are you globalists hell bent on destroying the living conditions and improverishing the underprivileged American workforce?
 
That unemployment number is useless



uh yeah
To you perhaps, but the poster I was replying to was under the impression that outsourcing has somehow destroyed the American economy which is demonstrably false when you take a look at the mid to late 00's.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Was foreign investment and outsourcing somehow obsolete during the 80's, 90's and 00's when we happened to enjoy a terrific amount of prosperity? Of course not.
 
To you perhaps, but the poster I was replying to was under the impression that outsourcing has somehow destroyed the American economy which is demonstrably false when you take a look at the mid to late 00's.

It's called "delayed effect." Globalist outsourcing (and illegals), has been exponentially increasing since the 1970's; and bubbles pop, they don't go "sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss". In fact I'm surprised it popped so late in 2009, I would have figured it woulda popped around 2000. Or how about 2002 when we invaded Iraq again.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Was foreign investment and outsourcing somehow obsolete during the 80's, 90's and 00's when we happened to enjoy a terrific amount of prosperity? Of course not.

Exponential. The trade deficit is exponential.
 
Yes, "stolen" is a highly subjective term. It shouldn't be, but, with so many wingnuts in denial ...

Any malicious intent or lack of patriotism was likely unconscious and only on the left wing as manifest by the Multi-Cultural Internationalist mindset. The right wing Corporate Global Expansionists were only concerned about increasing profits by decreasing costs .. that's all they were concerned about .. nothing more .. nothing more whatsoever .. .. .

As to those jobs being unsustainable here, until the MCIs and CGEs are out of power, we'll never really know until we bring them back and see if, on their own, they sink, or swim as they had done for so many years.

As to "enhanced diplomatic relations", that's kind of like excusing our attack on Iraq in 2003 with "to nation-form a democracy" when we really just wanted to prevent our share of light, sweet Iraqi crude from being diverted to China; it's causally a non-starter.

As to your question about four years ago a five percent unemployment rate, four years ago the official rate was at 6.1, not 5.8, as there's always more than a month lag in reporting, as most of July 2008's information was not reported until the September 2008 report, but, regardless, the official rate is always considerably understated, considerably.

Outsourcing ramped up greatly during the early/middle of the past decade, and most of the true un- and under- employment percent reflected sub-primers' jobs in- and out- sourced to wage-slaves.

So when owners of sub-primer mortagages saw the handwriting on the wall, they created those infamous securities .. and the rest is history, a Great Recessionary history that simply would not have been given a set stage had the in- and out- source-stealing of American jobs by wage-slaves and their owners never occurred.

America's time is running out. If the jobs do not come back quickly, the continually accumulating dead-weight of increasing scores of millions of Americans without a full-time living wage job will most certainly create the greatest depression.
Wingnuts?

Yes, Profit margins are quite important in the business realm. They allow for expansion and retainment of current employees as well.

Terrible analogy, you're completely ignoring the numerous and important allies earned in no small part through economic diplomacy.

Make that 5 years. My sincerest apologies. The question stands though, was foreign investment and outsourcing somehow obsolete during recent decades?

Outsourcing did increase greatly in the 00's, but you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the U.S. economy and labor market were operating at near normal capacity for the vast majority of that period.

Blaming outsourcing for the Mortgage crisis? That's a new one. I wouldn't stick with it though, given the complete lack of supporting evidence.

Anything else from the Astrology section catch your eye? Stock picks perhaps?
 
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It's called "delayed effect." Globalist outsourcing (and illegals), has been exponentially increasing since the 1970's; and bubbles pop, they don't go "sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss". In fact I'm surprised it popped so late in 2009, I would have figured it woulda popped around 2000. Or how about 2002 when we invaded Iraq again.



Exponential. The trade deficit is exponential.
2008 would be the correct date, not 2009. Unfortunately, that's the only part of your post that could even be mistaken as accurate in any manner.
 
Sorry but this is bull****. It isn't realistic to expect a factory in Indonesia to pay US wages and follow US labor laws. Those things are luxuries for rich countries. When people say that "We'll trade with you as long as you [insert some unrealistic condition here]", it's really just a PC way of saying "We don't want to trade with you."

It is unrealistic to expect third world countries to pay US wages and follow US labor laws. It is just as unrealistic to expect companies to pay US wages and follow US labor laws if they can avoid it by outsourcing to third world countries. It is further unrealistic to expect that the majority of American citizens can earn a decent living in a global labor market that puts them in direct competition with third world workers. And it is ultimately unrealistic to expect that the American government can continue to provide social services for the increasing numbers of underemployed while its tax base continues to erode.

Putting tariffs on goods and services produced in countries that do not pay US wages or follow US labor laws seems to me the only realistic alternative.
 
It is unrealistic to expect third world countries to pay US wages and follow US labor laws. It is just as unrealistic to expect companies to pay US wages and follow US labor laws if they can avoid it by outsourcing to third world countries. It is further unrealistic to expect that the majority of American citizens can earn a decent living in a global labor market that puts them in direct competition with third world workers. And it is ultimately unrealistic to expect that the American government can continue to provide social services for the increasing numbers of underemployed while its tax base continues to erode.

Putting tariffs on goods and services produced in countries that do not pay US wages or follow US labor laws seems to me the only realistic alternative.
Hardly realistic and quite frankly reeking of pseudo Nationalism. I simply have no clue as to why some completely ignore the consequential diminished purchasing power of said countries if tariffs were to be implemented on a large scale.
 
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Wingnuts?
Yes, wingnuts: MCIs and CGEs and those left and right who bow to them.


Yes, Profit margins are quite important in the business realm. They allow for expansion and retainment of current employees as well.
And when taken to extreme they cause in- and out- sourcing of American jobs to wage-slaves.

It would seem that less extremism is in order.

Perhaps we have the wrong neanderthals running our corporations, and a little less Darwinian dog-eat-dogism would do us well.


Terrible analogy, you're completely ignoring the numerous and important allies earned in no small part through economic diplomacy.
Or, in other, words, the truth of my obviously accurate analogy doesn't escape you, and you have a particular agenda here as you describe.


Make that 5 years. My sincerest apologies. The question stands though, was foreign investment and outsourcing somehow obsolete during recent decades?
You seem to like to deal in extremes.

It's not a question of whether it existed (one extreme) or not (the other extreme); creating a false dichotomy is meaningless.

The fact remains that it's best to keep damaging aberrations to a minimum, which occurred through measures of statutes, statutes which began being dismantled during the Reagan corporate socialist movement .. until the stage was set at the turn of the century for greater exploitation of "labor markets" abroad.

As to a more important figure now, the real un- and under- employment rate of around 14% isn't going to decrease much any time soon .. and is likely to suddenly skyrocket again .. like it did in the post-holiday season of 1933, because, then, as now, we couldn't get Americans working again, and the dead-weight eventually sunk enough additional American businesses to bring the next level down too.


Outsourcing did increase greatly in the 00's, but you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the U.S. economy and labor market were operating at near normal capacity for the vast majority of that period.
I'm not ignoring anything.

I'm not even questioning the questionable veracity of your assertion.

I do question how important is "the economy" if too many people are out of work.

I realize "the economy" has value to those who bullishly seek to profit from it.

When we can find a way to make "the economy" "strong" and eliminate in- and out- sourcing to wage-slaves, then we'll be better Americans because of it.

Indeed, when it comes to ignoring something, it's time for "economists" and "labor analysts" to stop ignoring the horrific plight of the millions of unemployed Americans back then .. and the scores of millions of Americans now remaining without full-time living-wage jobs.


Wingnuts Blaming outsourcing for the Mortgage crisis? That's a new one. I wouldn't stick with it though, given the complete lack of supporting evidence.
Are you purposely misconstruing, or was my starightforward presentation too complex for you?

Wingnuts are denying that the jobs stolen from Americans were stolen.

The reality is that the sub-prime securities crisis, as it was more accurately referenced, was, indeed, precipitated on precisely that: sub-primers having their jobs in- and out- sourced from under them in the, as you admit here, ramp-up of such job stealing entering the middle of the past decade. All that turn-of-the-century effort to bring sub-primers into the real estate market backfired when our corporations subsequently ramped-up their Darwinian dog-eat-dogism competition. Once sub-primers lost their jobs .. their mortage eventually followed.

Only a revisionist bent on hiding their agendas would deny the now long-known reality of it.


Anything else from the Astrology section catch your eye? Stock picks perhaps?
Nope -- nothing more from your publication was worth mentioning.
 
i prefer free trade with partner nations which adopt OSHA-type worker protections and the environmental standards that US companies must comply with. those that don't should be subject to tariffs proportional to level of noncompliance.
It is not nations that are trading, but individuals and companies within nations. Government should not impose tariffs on companies that do not meet certain standards. People should be allowed to determine whether or not to patronize said companies themselves.
 
There is always so much cry over outsourcing that people forget about the flip side of the coin: insourcing. Plenty of other companies in foreign countries are outsourcing jobs to the United States. These companies include Toyota (in fact, many car companies), Nesle, and many others.

Insourcing Facts

Nearly 5% of private sector employment is by a foreign company.
 
There is always so much cry over outsourcing that people forget about the flip side of the coin: insourcing. Plenty of other companies in foreign countries are outsourcing jobs to the United States. These companies include Toyota (in fact, many car companies), Nesle, and many others.

Insourcing Facts

Nearly 5% of private sector employment is by a foreign company.

Insourcing only occurs because of rising protectionist sentiment.
 
2008 would be the correct date, not 2009. Unfortunately, that's the only part of your post that could even be mistaken as accurate in any manner.

Oh so in your world bubbles go "Sssssssssssss", they don't pop.
 
Outsourcing did increase greatly in the 00's, but you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the U.S. economy and labor market were operating at near normal capacity for the vast majority of that period.

Wrong, the economy/labor market downhill fall is directly proportional to the trade deficit.
 
There is always so much cry over outsourcing that people forget about the flip side of the coin: insourcing. Plenty of other companies in foreign countries are outsourcing jobs to the United States. These companies include Toyota (in fact, many car companies), Nesle, and many others.

Insourcing Facts

Nearly 5% of private sector employment is by a foreign company.
And where are those Toyotas sold? That's right: America.

So how about we make a rule, that you can make it abroad if you want, but you have to sell it abroad, too.

That keeps the economies in scale.

The problem occurs when we make a pair of jeans in Jordan or Kenya by wage-slaves and sell them for $7.00/pair at Wal-Mart .. forcing clothing manufacturers/distributors/etc. in America out of business and their employees into unemployment lines.

We can do better by our fellow Americans.
 
Yes, wingnuts: MCIs and CGEs and those left and right who bow to them.



And when taken to extreme they cause in- and out- sourcing of American jobs to wage-slaves.

It would seem that less extremism is in order.

Perhaps we have the wrong neanderthals running our corporations, and a little less Darwinian dog-eat-dogism would do us well.



Or, in other, words, the truth of my obviously accurate analogy doesn't escape you, and you have a particular agenda here as you describe.



You seem to like to deal in extremes.

It's not a question of whether it existed (one extreme) or not (the other extreme); creating a false dichotomy is meaningless.

The fact remains that it's best to keep damaging aberrations to a minimum, which occurred through measures of statutes, statutes which began being dismantled during the Reagan corporate socialist movement .. until the stage was set at the turn of the century for greater exploitation of "labor markets" abroad.

As to a more important figure now, the real un- and under- employment rate of around 14% isn't going to decrease much any time soon .. and is likely to suddenly skyrocket again .. like it did in the post-holiday season of 1933, because, then, as now, we couldn't get Americans working again, and the dead-weight eventually sunk enough additional American businesses to bring the next level down too.



I'm not ignoring anything.

I'm not even questioning the questionable veracity of your assertion.

I do question how important is "the economy" if too many people are out of work.

I realize "the economy" has value to those who bullishly seek to profit from it.

When we can find a way to make "the economy" "strong" and eliminate in- and out- sourcing to wage-slaves, then we'll be better Americans because of it.

Indeed, when it comes to ignoring something, it's time for "economists" and "labor analysts" to stop ignoring the horrific plight of the millions of unemployed Americans back then .. and the scores of millions of Americans now remaining without full-time living-wage jobs.



Are you purposely misconstruing, or was my starightforward presentation too complex for you?

Wingnuts are denying that the jobs stolen from Americans were stolen.

The reality is that the sub-prime securities crisis, as it was more accurately referenced, was, indeed, precipitated on precisely that: sub-primers having their jobs in- and out- sourced from under them in the, as you admit here, ramp-up of such job stealing entering the middle of the past decade. All that turn-of-the-century effort to bring sub-primers into the real estate market backfired when our corporations subsequently ramped-up their Darwinian dog-eat-dogism competition. Once sub-primers lost their jobs .. their mortage eventually followed.

Only a revisionist bent on hiding their agendas would deny the now long-known reality of it.
I wouldn't know of such things.

Businesses tend to follow the money trail. In the current economic climate there is simply little to no motivation to confine ones business inside of a country with stagnant growth and higher wage demands. Not to mention the likely result of your ideal Darwinian free scenario would lead to higher prices for consumers of each and every wage grouping.

No, it was terribly misplaced.

It seems as if you have omitted the 90's from that particular excerpt? Any reason for that?

"Stolen" as if all jobs are pre destined to be US bound? As if labor markets should opt for stagnation in lieu of modernization and expansion?

The sub prime collapse was precipitated upon many unique circumstances outside of the realm of that particular phenomena. Chalking up the entire collapse, or even the bulk of it to outsourcing is downright foolish.
 
What makes you entitled to live in the country I live in?

I'm happy with America's generally pro-trade attitude toward the rest of the world. If you'd prefer to live in a closed economy, I hear North Korea is a worker's paradise. :lol:
 
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