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Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 42.9%
  • No

    Votes: 16 57.1%

  • Total voters
    28
this is not evidence of anything, as far as this discussion goes.

what evidence do you have to support your claims?

the same evidence I have to support your claims that black slaves exist.

the evidence is so overwhelming, only trolls would argue in the face of it.
 
...So my answer would be that yes 200 years ago .. you could have been both .. and no, in todays world .. you couldn't

slaves were seen as human beings, even back then.

lesser & inferior human beings? yes. But still human.

therefore, even back then, one could not be both a slave-owner and a Libertarian.

nor could one be a Libertarian and believe women or Jews should not have the right to vote.

if you believe someone is a human being in any form, no true Libertarian would accept that person being denied any rights or freedoms.
 
slavery......is not voluntary servitude or indentured servitude or prison labor.
....
Thanks, I made that equate that is not correct in my earlier post. I wrote that one could contract one self into slavery, but it would just be servitude. Slavery and servitude can effectively be very similar conditions. I'd now vote No on slavery but Yes if servitude was swapped in for for slavery.
 
Thanks, I made that equate that is not correct in my earlier post. I wrote that one could contract one self into slavery, but it would just be servitude. Slavery and servitude can effectively be very similar conditions. I'd now vote No on slavery but Yes if servitude was swapped in for for slavery.

slavery is not a condition one can voluntary enter into.
 
....
if you believe someone is a human being in any form, no true Libertarian would accept that person being denied any rights or freedoms.
But, could one voluntarily enter into a contract with someone to become their indentured person for some reason if they didn't, for example, repay a loan?
 
slavery is not a condition one can voluntary enter into.

In ancient times slavery was something that an individual could "voluntary enter into"

Voluntary slavery (or self-sale) is the condition of slavery freely entered into. In ancient times this was a common way for impoverished people to provide subsistence for themselves or their family and provision was made for this in law.[1] For example, the code of Hammurabi stated that, "besides being able to borrow on personal security, an individual might sell himself or a family member into slavery."[2]

In ancient times one of the most direct ways to become a Roman or Greek citizen was by means of a self-sale contract. For the laws surrounding Roman and Greek manumission made it quite possible for such erstwhile slaves to then become citizens or near-citizens themselves.[3]

In medieval Russia, self-sale was the main source of slaves.[4]

1: M. L. Bush (1996), Serfdom and slavery: studies in legal bondage, p. 21

2: Anthony Appiah, Martin Bunzl (2007-07-02), Buying freedom, pp. 95–97, ISBN 978-0-691-13010-1

3: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Geoffrey W. Bromiley. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1995. ISBN 0-8028-3784-0. p.543.

4: MA Klein (1986), "Slavery in Russia, 1450-1725", American Journal of Sociology
 
that's not slavery, as slavery is involuntary,
OK. So if an economic situation occurred where people had to enter involuntary servitude in order to fulfill contractual agreements, e.g. mortgages, that would be supported in a libertarian system?
 
what evidence do you have that they exist?

Slavery in Sudan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since 1995, many human rights organizations have reported on contemporary practice, especially in the context of the Second Sudanese civil war. Both the government-backed militias and the rebels (led by the SPLA) have been found guilty of abducting civilians, according a 2002 report issued by the International Eminent Persons Group, acting with the encouragement of the US State Department.[2] According to the Rift Valley Institute's Sudan Abductee Database, over 11,000 people were abducted in 20 years of slave-raiding in southern Sudan.[3]



now, where is YOUR evidence?
 
OK. So if an economic situation occurred where people had to enter involuntary servitude in order to fulfill contractual agreements, e.g. mortgages, that would be supported in a libertarian system?

folks don't choose to enter into involuntary servitude.

that's like being forced to volunteer your time.
 
what evidence do you have that they exist?

Ten Facts About Modern Slavery

Florida farm workers tell how drugs, debt bind them in modern slavery

Lawsuit: St. Johns farm took advantage of homeless men in Jacksonville
Posted: May 3, 2012

A Florida potato farm has been accused of targeting destitute Jacksonville men to serve as seasonal workers, exploiting their situations and then not paying them what they were owed, according to a lawsuit filed last week.

The class-action lawsuit says Bulls-hit Ranch and Farm in Hastings used a labor contractor who found men at local homeless shelters and hired them as migrant agricultural workers to work in potato packing.

The men, the lawsuit says, were taken to the farm in St. Johns County to work with promises of at least minimum-wage pay, housing and meals provided at a labor camp. They were then required to pay the contractor for the housing and were supplied illegal drugs they bought on credit, according to the lawsuit.
 
folks don't choose to enter into involuntary servitude.

that's like being forced to volunteer your time.
If I was offering mortgages, e.g. a bank, and I wanted to insure that my bank would be paid off, I would require servitude if payment wasn't made. (We just bought another house on a short sale. The 2nd lender took a real bath. The owner walked away, he still owned his 1st home and will just have bad credit for a while.)
 
Slavery in Sudan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since 1995, many human rights organizations have reported on contemporary practice, especially in the context of the Second Sudanese civil war. Both the government-backed militias and the rebels (led by the SPLA) have been found guilty of abducting civilians, according a 2002 report issued by the International Eminent Persons Group, acting with the encouragement of the US State Department.[2] According to the Rift Valley Institute's Sudan Abductee Database, over 11,000 people were abducted in 20 years of slave-raiding in southern Sudan.[3]



now, where is YOUR evidence?

we are talking about the founding fathers. prove they existed then, without using history books, as my use of those did not satisfy you.
 
slaves were seen as human beings, even back then.

lesser & inferior human beings? yes. But still human.

therefore, even back then, one could not be both a slave-owner and a Libertarian.

nor could one be a Libertarian and believe women or Jews should not have the right to vote.

if you believe someone is a human being in any form, no true Libertarian would accept that person being denied any rights or freedoms.


Then sir you are an exceptional individual, because what you are saying, is you have never done anything that you didn’t believe in. Not many people can say that .

People 200 years ago could have owned slaves and not believed in slavery. It was a way of life back then . Just as one could believe today that pollution of the planet is wrong and still drive a car. There by helping to pollute the planet.

The only way to answer that question is to know what was in the mind and hearts of our founding fathers something you or I couldn’t know.

So I stand by my answer.
 
Originally Posted by Thunder
who is denying that black slaves exist?

what evidence do you have that they exist?


Why would you post the preceding and then post the following?

ARealConservative said:
we are talking about the founding fathers. prove they existed then, without using history books, as my use of those did not satisfy you.

It certainly looks like you are trying to avoid admitting that modern slavery does exist by bringing up the "founding fathers"
 
Why would you post the preceding and then post the following?

the context of our discussion. he is claiming that our history did not include the enslavement of chinese people. He asked what proof I had that it did exist, I said history books.

It certainly looks like you are trying to avoid admitting that modern slavery does exist by bringing up the "founding fathers"

it looks like you are trying to jump into an ongoing discussion you were never a part of, then proceed to tell me what the discussion is about. of course modern slavery exists, the sex trade practically depends on it.
 
Simply thus, Some of the Founding Fathers would agree with many of the points on what we now call libertarianism. Of those some did own slaves. It was the times slavery would not be avoidable back then. Today, we use machines instead. The main point about the issue of racism I will quote from the article referred in the OP.

from Ron Paul :

But to me, it’s a moot point. I thought the great people in the 1950s and the 1960s were people like Branch Rickey and Jackie Robinson. I mean, that’s how real integration occurred. Where did the real segregation come from? From government. Government-endorsed slavery. Government-endorsed segregation law. Government-endorsed… how long did the government have segregation of the armed forces? Up until the World War Two. So to say that we who defend private property are labeled “racists”, I think that’s, and you didn’t. You didn’t.

Observe that the issue is that government was the one supporting racism. Libertarians do not support the enforcement of distinguishments of persons by government.
 
they were persons....just lesser-persons...because of their race & origin.

No. Persons can not be property.

Slaves were not people.
 
No. Persons can not be property.

Slaves were not people.

sure they were. They were people owned by someone else, but they were still people.

However, black Africans were considered inferior people, hence they were the only slaves in the USA post-Revolution.
 
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