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Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 42.9%

  • No

    Votes: 16 57.1%
  • Total voters
    28
Excon said:
lol
:doh
If they were not considered human, Race can play no role.
Because they would not be considered a race of humans. Duh!
Race is dependent on there being human.
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black Africans were not considered fully-human because of their race & origin.

slaves were considered 3/5ths of a human being when our nation was founded.
 
Thunder said:
and because black-Africans were considered an inferior form of human-being.
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Wrong!

It was because they were a cheap source of labor.

No one says - Hey I am going to buy this servant because I think they are inferior.
They buy them because they are a cheap source of labor. Just as with the Irish and the Chinese.

But the original seller may be selling them because they are believed inferior.
 
Thunder said:
black Africans were not considered fully-human because of their race & origin.

slaves were considered 3/5ths of a human being when our nation was founded.
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That compromise has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
 
Thunder said:
The Chinese & Irish were NEVER slaves in the USA.
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Ok, I am done with you.
You clearly know not of what you speak.
Because there were.
 
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Excon said:
Ok, I am done with you.
You clearly know not of what you speak.
Because there were.
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They were indentured servants. They signed a contract and worked to pay off their contract, in exchange for passage to the USA and other things.

A slave, has no choice in whether or not he performs labor...and is not forced to perform labor as part of his punishment for a crime.
 
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Thunder said:
they were not considered human, BECAUSE of their race.
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Persons. Not considered persons. The distinction is important.
 
Thunder said:
They were indentured servants. They signed a contract and worked to pay off their contract, in exchange for passage to the USA and other things.

A slave, has no choice in whether or not he performs labor.
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Like I said.
I am done with you.
You clearly know not of what you speak.
 
Thunder said:
On the contrary, I know what I am talking about and I am explaining my argument.

You are simply saying I am wrong, but not saying why.
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Sigh...

Backwards, as usual.

I told you I was done with you on this subject.

So the above response is all you are going to get now.
You were wrong and didn't know what you were talking about.

I am not going to spend time debating with you when you have no idea of what you speak.
 
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Thunder said:
On the contrary, I know what I am talking about and I am explaining my argument.

You are simply saying I am wrong, but not saying why.
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you were definitely wrong about Chinese slaves.
 
Thunder said:
are you going to say why it is "backwards"?
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I told you I was done with you on this subject.

What do you not understand about that?
 
Excon said:
I told you I was done with you on this subject.

What do you not understand about that?
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you said my claim was backwards. You said I don't know what I am talking about.

but you refuse to state why. If you don't want me asking for evidence for your claims against me, you should avoid making them.
 
From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britain’s solution was to auction them off as well.

During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.

...

England continued to ship tens of thousands of Irish slaves for more than a century. Records state that, after the 1798 Irish Rebellion, thousands of Irish slaves were sold to both America and Australia.
The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves – Rasta Livewire​
 
Thunder said:
you said my claim was backwards. You said I don't know what I am talking about.

but you refuse to state why. If you don't want me asking for evidence for your claims against me, you should avoid making them.
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It was already given.
So you get no more from me. Understand that. You will be told you are wrong and that is it.
 
anyway, most folks here agree that one cannot be a Libertarian and also support the right to own slaves. The two are as mutually-exclusive as water and fire.
 
Thunder said:
what evidence do you have that the Chinese were actually sold as "slaves", and not indentured servants, in the USA?
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history books, which is the same evidence I have for all the things that occurred before I was born.
 
Hatuey said:
Whenever I hear a Ron Paul supporter praising the American demigods or more commonly know as the Founding Fathers - they sometimes refer to them as "Libertarians". Now, before you go calling this a "straw man" here is the big enchilada himself saying the founders were "Libertarian":

Ron Paul: The Founding Fathers Were Libertarians


Now, obviously I acknowledge that not ALL the Founders were slave owners. I also acknowledge that there is a possibility that maybe Paul wasn't referring to ALL the founders. However one big name that sticks out in my mind when referring to the "founders" is Jefferson and I doubt such an important figure in US history wasn't who Paul was referring to when he said "the founders". "Libertarians" like Paul LOVE to call out Jefferson when discussing personal freedoms. He's a Libertarian All-Star. I decided to look around and what do you know there were Libertarians comparing Paul to Jefferson and crediting Jefferson for modern Libertarianism. Not only that but they were doing it on officially sanctioned Ron Paul websites:

Ron Paul is Thomas Jefferson*|*Ron Paul 2012 Presidential Campaign CommitteeRon Paul 2012 Presidential Campaign Committee



Now I'm no history scholar. However, Wikipedia? That's a great tool right there. You can look up quick definitions for words you don't really understand and get a rough idea of what they mean:

Here is the basic definition of slavery:

Slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Here is the basic definition of Libertarian:

Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Now, the underlined sections are the ones which have led me to believe that slavery and Libertarianism are not compatible. One is based on the freedom of association, the other is forced. This made me wonder, are Libertarians completely mental when considering Jefferson a "Libertarian" or are they right and it is possible to be both a slave owner AND a Libertarian? Either way, the second question was the safest one to ask so I'll repeat it:

Can you be a slave owner and a libertarian at the same time?
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I’m not sure you can make that association considering the times, back in their day slave owership wasn’t anything unusual . Most wealthy people had them, it was a way of life. Some if not most of the founding fathers may have disagreed with slavery, but during that time it was a way of life.

In My opinion, it would be like looking back 200 years from now, and asking the question, was Al Gore really concerned with saving the planet ( or any person you care to name) when his foot print was nearly 6 times that of the common population? Was Bush or Obama really concerned with the country’s growing debt when in 12 years they increased that debt from 4 trillion dollars to over 15 trillion dollars ??

I think it’s easy to look back 200 years after the fact and question anything, In reality you are asking someone to tell you what our founding fathers thought in their head, and in there heart compared to their actions at the time they lived ……. I for one don’t believe that can be done.

So my answer would be that yes 200 years ago .. you could have been both .. and no, in todays world .. you couldn't
 
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