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Most anti-libertarian Presidents

Most anti-libertarian President?

  • Abraham Lincoln

    Votes: 10 25.6%

  • Woodrow Wilson

    Votes: 4 10.3%

  • Franklin Roosevelt

    Votes: 14 35.9%

  • Theodore Roosevelt

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Lyndon Johnson

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • George W. Bush

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • Richard Nixon

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • Herbert Hoover

    Votes: 1 2.6%

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • Other

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • Total voters
    39
Fletch said:
Any rational creature requires moral principles to guide its actions.
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Next to the claim that "after viability, abortions are performed publiclly", that was the most absurd claim I've seen made on DP. There have been plenty of people in history who have been both rational and immoral. Hitler, Stalin, Idi amin, etc were all rational, but seriously immoral
 
haymarket said:
But you can indeed do those things. People do them every day. Remember? You own yourself. So you can order yourself to kill or maim or steal or enslave or anything else you want to order yourself to do.

And people do those things every day of the week. ;)
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ok, it's a given that you can actually do those things...as they do , indeed, happen

now tell us why is it illegal and unacceptable to murder, assault, or enslave another person...


you're a stubborn thirsty horse, but i'll get you to water eventually.:lol:
 
haymarket said:
self ownership ..... sovereignity ...... supreme sovereignity .....

WOW!!!!

Such high and mighty high fallutin' talk from somebody who claims tht the majority agrees with them. Somehow I suspect that if you go into any workingman's bar near any factory or warehouse in the USA and start spouting such stuff, you will soon find yourself tossed out the back door with the trash and other useless garbage.
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I would have absolutely zero problem walking into that bar and making my argument.... and coming out with with consensus approval.. and a bit of a buzz

unlike you, I don't believe the workingman is stupid or ignorant.... i'll wager a dollar to a donut they know all about the concept of self ownership.
 
sangha said:
Next to the claim that "after viability, abortions are performed publiclly", that was the most absurd claim I've seen made on DP. There have been plenty of people in history who have been both rational and immoral. Hitler, Stalin, Idi amin, etc were all rational, but seriously immoral
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HItler, Stalin and Idi Amin considered their principles immoral? I wasnt aware of that. It might be news to you, but an immoral act falls under umbrella of morality too.
 
Fletch said:
Any rational creature requires moral principles to guide its actions. So you are either admitting that you are not rational or that you do follow certain principles but are afraid to name them. While it is tempting for me to assume the former, I am going to have to go with the latter. After all, you want law to follow some sort of principles, right? So dont play dumb. Now, you claim that people are not property. Yet I can sell you my labor. Why? Because my labor belongs to me. Hopefully you dont dispute that. Now answer the question as to why that labor belongs to me, and we will go from there.
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Actually because you can perform you labor. Just like you can do any number of other functions with your body. Even poop. But I guess you are only able to do that because you own that too right?

If you don't get it yet..... I am NOT taking this nonsense very seriously. As with most things libertarian, what somebody has done is come up with an axiom that they thought was clever and that if they can get you to accept it then a whole long row of dominos is behind it ready to be pushed over one after the other after the other and at the end of the line is something about lessening the power of government and most likely telling us why you should not have to pay taxes.

Sorry, but I have been to the rodeo before and have seen the final act many many times. Its always the same. I know that the rodeo clowns you are using to sell me the rest of the show are just the prelude and pretext.
 
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Thrilla said:
ok, it's a given that you can actually do those things...as they do , indeed, happen

now tell us why is it illegal and unacceptable to murder, assault, or enslave another person...


you're a stubborn thirsty horse, but i'll get you to water eventually.:lol:
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Well, our society allows you to kill people. And there are situations where you are encouraged to assault other people. And once upon a time slavery was quite the fad in some parts of the land.

I guess the answer you are looking for is because enough other people have made a decision that is not the kind of society we want to live in.
 
Thrilla said:
you want evidence that the majority of Americans believe in individual rights, justice, and law?... really?
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That was not your claim and you know it. Nice try to move the goal posts to a more friendly field though. ;)

from Thrilla

as I said, I'm unsurprised you see self-ownership as nonsense... but I don't mind that you do, I'm just glad that you are in the severe minority and have been throughout American history.
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So please, do present us the proof that a majority of American believe in this idea that you own yourself.
 
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AreteCourage said:
As far a self-ownership goes...one should have the right to do to themselves as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe on other people. The second you start infringing on the rights of another person is when you are breaking a law. You cannot "own" yourself outright....matter of fact; I don't even like to term it in that way. Individuals don't own themselves, but have rights to themselves.
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Agreed, since others also own themselves, the second you start infringing on them, you are violating THEIR ownership rights.

If everyone simply respects the self-ownership of their fellow man, we can all get along fine. All we have to do is establish a social order in which those who damage the property of others (including their own persons) are held responsible for their actions.

The libertarian ethic is based upon the rules of behavior we all learned in kindergarten. Don't hit other people, and don't take their stuff. Pretty simple really.
 
haymarket said:
Principles? I do not know what those are. Perhaps you can explain them to me? I simply go by reality of the world we live in.
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This admission explains quite a lot. Thanks, now I understand.
 
haymarket said:
If you don't get it yet..... I am NOT taking this nonsense very seriously. As with most things libertarian, what somebody has done is come up with an axiom that they thought was clever and that if they can get you to accept it then a whole long row of dominos is behind it ready to be pushed over one after the other after the other and at the end of the line is something about lessening the power of government and most likely telling us why you should not have to pay taxes.
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I understand why you consider it essential that you reject the notion that it is ethically wrong to initiate violence against your fellow man or his property. Were you to entertain such an ethical stance, you would have to change your behavior.
 
haymarket said:
Actually because you can perform you labor. Just like you can do any number of other functions with your body. Even poop. But I guess you are only able to do that because you own that too right?
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You have no grounds to claim the product of your labor if you do not first own the laborer. If you deny ownership of your own body--which you do--you dont get to magically claim the product of that body's mind or labor. It is the basis for any just law: you are accountable for your actions because you are master of your actions. Your mind and body belong to you, by right, and the actions of that mind and that body are yours accordingly. This is not complex stuff. You would think someone who spent his time 'teaching' the nations youth would not have such simple concepts fall outside his mental grasp, yet here we are. As for your childish 'poop' analogy, you do own it. If you dont believe me, drop a load on your neighbors lawn in front of witnesses and see what happens when the police arrive.

If you don't get it yet..... I am NOT taking this nonsense very seriously. As with most things libertarian, what somebody has done is come up with an axiom that they thought was clever and that if they can get you to accept it then a whole long row of dominos is behind it ready to be pushed over one after the other after the other and at the end of the line is something about lessening the power of government and most likely telling us why you should not have to pay taxes.
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If you dont take these discussions seriously, then you are just trolling.

Sorry, but I have been to the rodeo before and have seen the final act many many times. Its always the same. I know that the rodeo clowns you are using to sell me the rest of the show are just the prelude and pretext.
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If you have done all this before, as you claim, you learned absolutely nothing. I mean, there are legitimate arguments you can make against libertarianism, but you havent made one. Your points are pathetic and lame and dont even suggest an elementary understanding of the concept of human liberty or individual rights. Maybe the rodeo you were at was a real rodeo. And maybe the clown was you.
 
Thrilla said:
speak upon only those thing you know.... my patriotism is something you are wholly and utterly ignorant about
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Quite to the contrary. You are a very loud and public advocate for what would destroy the USA and its people. That is about as unpatriotic as one can get without leaving the nation to join an enemy nation.
 
Fletch said:
You have no grounds to claim the product of your labor if you do not first own the laborer. If you deny ownership of your own body--which you do--you dont get to magically claim the product of that body's mind or labor.
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Baloney.

Your body is not owned by anybody. You fail right out of the gate with a false premise. Everything that comes after is thus bunk.
 
haymarket said:
Quite to the contrary. You are a very loud and public advocate for what would destroy the USA and its people. That is about as unpatriotic as one can get without leaving the nation to join an enemy nation.
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the only people destroyed by freedom are little children unable to function as adults and the would be nannies who derive their wealth and power from pandering to and controlling those little children
 
haymarket said:
That was not your claim and you know it. Nice try to move the goal posts to a more friendly field though. ;)

from Thrilla



So please, do present us the proof that a majority of American believe in this idea that you own yourself.
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no goalposts were moved, you are simply ignorant of the concepts inherent to, and surrounding, self ownership.

tell me, Haymarket... who possesses sovereignty over you, your thoughts, your body, your actions?


it's obvious that Haymarket is in charge of Haymarket from my perspective, but seeing as you reject that perspective out of hand, I'd like to know your answer as to who holds supreme sovereignty over you.

I'm genuinely curious as to who controls the whole being that is Haymarket.
 
haymarket said:
Baloney.

Your body is not owned by anybody. You fail right out of the gate with a false premise. Everything that comes after is thus bunk.
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so you don't control you, and nobody else controls you.

interesting theory you have there... where did this concept of no-ownership come from?
 
haymarket said:
Quite to the contrary. You are a very loud and public advocate for what would destroy the USA and its people. That is about as unpatriotic as one can get without leaving the nation to join an enemy nation.
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I'm confident you believe that.
 
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