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Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?


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Let's see how much profit he makes from his property without some else's labor. :peace

Lets see if you notice they were already paid for their labor and part of a different transaction.
 
I'll bring up the origin of nonsense if I feel like doing it.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! As is well evidenced by countless posts filled with nonsense you have made in thread after thread after thread. ;)
 
They can't strike? You'd better tell the Chicago Teachers Union that. Apparently they didn't get the memo. In reality, that's a state-by-state question.
Yes it is a state-by-state question and I very specifically stated in my very first post in our little discussion that they couldn't take over the government HERE. I repeated that same word "HERE" many times. If you weren't reading correctly that's not my problem.

Not that it really matters, when strike isn't allowed, [... blah, blah, blah - on and on about BS unrelated to what I originally posted ...]
And none of the rest makes a damn bit of difference.


It all comes down to local laws so your blanket statements about how unions can "take over government" is just crap to scare people. Unions can only do what local laws allow them to do. Demanding they be dismantled because people don't like the local laws governing them is just ignorance and/or stupidity.
 
You're just thinking about this at a much more generalized level than what I'm talking about. Of course people should get paid for stuff they sell.

Maybe an example of the kind of rules I'm talking about would help. I worked at a number of start up and mid sized tech companies. In those situations generally it is more in the interests of the employees for the business to release realistic revenue numbers and grow steadily based on revenues, and generally it is more in the interests of the investors to produce spectacular sounding revenue figures to attract investors, shoot the value of the company up, sell it off, and then leave it to come collapsing back down once they're out with a flurry of firings and maybe a bankruptcy. Certainly not all investors want that and that isn't applicable in all companies, but it certainly is a situation that arises with some frequency. So, take just one very small rule that we as a society have to set- how are revenue numbers determined. There are lots of options. You could require that each department head signs off on a number for their department, you could require outside auditing companies to produce the numbers, you can allow them to count revenues for sales that haven't been delivered yet or not, you can have the investors elect people to come up with the numbers, you can allow them to count annual revenue streams in whatever quarter they want or you can make them even it out across the whole year, etc. Each of those choices either favors investors or workers in some way.

There are literally tens of thousands of rules like that that we as a society have set up.

My contention is that right now they are very imbalanced to favor investors and to disfavor employees. IMO that is why our income gap is exploding like it is.

I understand better now. When you say "we as a society", do you mean the government? The federal government? You want the federal government to establish tens of thousands of rules controlling the behavior of businessmen?
 
I have read his findings and there is no doubt that his data is solid and his conclusions are firm and true. After adjusting for cost of living, right to work states have workers earning $1,500 LESS than workers in unionized states. And their benefits are far less as well.
No, he is adjusting for all sorts of factors, not just cost of living. He says so himself. I am just adjusting for cost of living, I am not adjusting for how many blacks there are in each state.

I do not know you. But allow me to get this straight. This man is a well respected professional who travels around then nation informing people about right to work. But you label him as a fraud and say that is how you become famous.
That is how they all become famous. He is probably as well respected as Paul Krugman. I looked through his research, and I saw fraud. He stated there was no correlation with growth, when his data show there is an correlation. And he said there were no more manufacturing losses, and only show about 15 states. He is only well respected by the liberal crowd who also think Paul Krugman is well respected.

Why should I take your word over his? Your analysis clearly does not account for the variables and differences that these major studies allowed for
Why should it? I only ajusted for one factor, cost of living. My aim was never to see if right to work is better or not. My aim was to see which states are richer. Just because you have a lot of hispanics and blacks, do not mean your state is richer.

And you can not deny it. Right to work states are richer then forced unionism states.
 
You totally miss the point that traveled at least a mile above your head.

Far too many right wing warriors like to throw out the name of Marx like a parent trying to scare a four year old with tales of the Boogeyman. So when that happens, I feel it is the duty of thinking people to gently tweak the invoker of Marx a bit. Its a gentle reminder to leave the frankenstein monster on the lab table as he is not fooling anybody.

1) The fact is-many of your comments have a basis in Marxist philosophies

2) You have never made a post that would go over my head-or that of Henrin or most of the conservative posters on this board. You often confuse disagreement or non-acceptance with a failure to comprehend.

3) I find it amusing you consider marx a frankenstein monster. I thought he was more like an attack dog for your side
 
I understand better now. When you say "we as a society", do you mean the government? The federal government?

No, not necessarily. Certainly the federal government is the biggest player in setting those rules, but depending on how you look at it, they are really set by a much broader slice of society. The Nasdaq sets up rules like that for stocks to be reported there. We have certain conventions that companies just follow because that's how it has always been done. Employees expect some things and not others. Employers enact their own policies, etc. The rules of the game are vast and complicated network of legal rules, private organization rules, conventions, traditions, expectations, etc.

You want the federal government to establish tens of thousands of rules controlling the behavior of businessmen?

No, the federal government already has tens of thousands of rules controlling the behavior of businessmen. I want them to be less skewed to favor owners over workers.

To be clear though, there isn't really a "don't make a rule" option in most these cases. For example, take the question of how corporations report expenditures on capital equipment. Right now the rule is that you have to record the cost spread across the years it is likely to be used. That is that way because otherwise you could just buy the number of widgets you'll sell in 5 years in year 1 and count it all in year 1. It would look terrible for you year 1, but then years 2-5 you would look radically more profitable than you are. So, the federal government says everybody needs to count it across all 5 of those years. If nobody made the rule, even the stock exchanges, then each company would just do it differently. In effect, the "rule" would be "each company can count expenses however they like". That wouldn't be good for anybody because investors couldn't put any weight on the numbers and companies couldn't signal investors that they were actually, really, doing well because there would be tons of companies faking it. So then auditing agencies or stock exchanges would come up with rules, but they would differ, so at least for non-professional investors, it would be a pretty useless system. You can say that the investor could just ask what rule they were using, but remember there are 10s or even 100s of thousands of rules like that. You'd need a Phd. and tons of time to dedicate to figuring it all out. So, better to just have one standardized system for that.

Now, other kinds of rules are better left to cultural norms or convention. For example, that the employer reimburses meal expenses, but not booze that you consume, when you travel for work is probably the norm. But what rule is optimal varies from company to company, situation to situation and position to position. For example, maybe a sales guy taking a customer out for drinks at one company should be reimbursed for the booze and maybe in another situation an employee that is traveling to one location for nine months for work shouldn't be able to expense every meal at another company. And it's ok in that situation to have them vary from company to company because it isn't that hard for an employee to learn the policy of their one employer and that's all that really needs to know.

So, different rules are optimally set at different levels.
 
I only ajusted for one factor, cost of living.

Which is why the research of Dr.Lafer and the studies he used are far superior to your rather cursory and incomplete approach.

But do not feel bad - he is a professional and uses other well respected professionals respected research.
 
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1) The fact is-many of your comments have a basis in Marxist philosophies

2) You have never made a post that would go over my head-or that of Henrin or most of the conservative posters on this board. You often confuse disagreement or non-acceptance with a failure to comprehend.

3) I find it amusing you consider marx a frankenstein monster. I thought he was more like an attack dog for your side

1- You do realize that much of what Karl Marx wrote about was not original and lifted in whole or in part from others - often going back hundreds of years? But yet you and other right wing warriors wallow in the self imposed delusion that he invented Original Sin and all that came with it.

2 - If I had a dollar for every post that went over your head and that of Henrin I could hire you for a few hours of legal advice.

3- And your Marx as frankenstein monster flub just proves it. Thank you!!!! The point was that you guys attempt to use him as a frankenstein monster because that is what Marx is to you. Others just shrug and say 'big freakin' deal'.
 
1- You do realize that much of what Karl Marx wrote about was not original and lifted in whole or in part from others - often going back hundreds of years? But yet you and other right wing warriors wallow in the self imposed delusion that he invented Original Sin and all that came with it.

2 - If I had a dollar for every post that went over your head and that of Henrin I could hire you for a few hours of legal advice.

3- And your Marx as frankenstein monster flub just proves it. Thank you!!!! The point was that you guys attempt to use him as a frankenstein monster because that is what Marx is to you. Others just shrug and say 'big freakin' deal'.

1) you are assuming facts not in evidence. where he got his philosophies matter not as long as he adopted them his own I can call them part of the marxist agenda.

2) you would have zero and would be several thousand dollars short. however, I constantly give you legal advice on this board for free so you might luck out

3) marx is not a monster-its the idiots who treat him as some sort of inspiration
 
1) you are assuming facts not in evidence. where he got his philosophies matter not as long as he adopted them his own I can call them part of the marxist agenda.

2) you would have zero and would be several thousand dollars short. however, I constantly give you legal advice on this board for free so you might luck out

3) marx is not a monster-its the idiots who treat him as some sort of inspiration

Why don't you demonstrate how to both build and support a case? If I had zero like you claim that would be exactly what your fee would be worth.

You can start with Marx. You can tell us how others discovered certain ideas hundreds and even thousands of years before he did but you still label the ideas as Marxism just the same.

Perhaps the progressive income tax would be a suitable topic for you to start with?
 
My apologies. Can I ask who you plan on voting for for president out of curiosity?
I am not an American, so I can't vote. I am happy about that. America treats its expats terrible.

If I could vote, I would probably chose to abstain. Or vote for a third party who shares my views, if it exist.

That isn't true. It's just stuff that the anti-worker interests in the country say. It's just manipulation of the data. For example, that median income of $27k includes high school kids that work 6 hours a week, people who don't work at all, retirees, everybody. And that is salary, not total compensation. On the other hand, the figures you're tossing out about teachers making $120k and whatnot are ultra distorted figures that come from anti-working-class right wing lobbies. What they do is they pick a particular school district where the teachers happen to have been teaching a really long time where the cost of living is extremely high. Then they total up all compensation including questionable assumptions about the value of pensions and that sort of thing. Then they say that teachers only work 75% of the year, so they multiply the compensation by 1.33. And so forth. And then they present that as if that is what teachers actually make... And then compare it to the $27k figure... It's just trickery designed to get you riled up against working class folks.
Yes, 27K does not include compensation, but a lot of people in America live on 20-30K in income. And as stated median household income is 45K. However, top income for teachers is about 80-100K in most school districts. Then we have to include compensation, money that is paid by the employee in other countries. That is benefits lower paid Americans are not getting. Many techers get excelent retirement benefits, and very good health care, pluss more. Their benefits tend to be worth about 30K USD. Hence income for old teachers is about 110K-130K in compensation. I would certainly call them rich. Think about how good you can live with that money. You can buy a ferrari, a 250 square meter house with a pool and take long vacations to exotic places every single year. To make it worse, many teachers believe their salary is too low.

But what really annoys me the most about unions is that they think they should decide their wage and not the market, and we're paying for it. The wage should be set at a level that will give us enough qualified teachers. It should not be set at the level teachers can force themselves to have. And it also hurts the poor. When teachers or any public professions increae their wages, then it means less money for everything else, and worse public services. The states with the strongest unions, New York and California. Also, have the highest poverty rates adjusted for cost of living.

Now, were you aware that Walker's budget that he insisted he needed to bust the unions to enact, which was supposedly about fiscal responsibility, actually increased the state deficit? He cut compensation for all the working class folks that work for the state and then he gave big businesses a tax cut that was slightly larger than the amount he took from the workers. It was just a straight up transfer of around $100 million from working class people to the rich.
Now, a business tax cut is not going straight to the pockets of businesses, while giving money to overpaid teachers is.

But most important is what is going to happen in the future. It will bring a sense of reality back to public unions in Wisconsin, and maybe they will realize that if they are going to function, then they can't prey on the working class.
 
1- You do realize that much of what Karl Marx wrote about was not original and lifted in whole or in part from others - often going back hundreds of years?

Indeed, but then not many of his followers realize this. Its exactly the same as Keynes. How many people that believe in Keynesian economics realize he stole the idea?
 
Which is why the research of Dr.Lafer and the studies he used are far superior to your rather cursory and incomplete approach.

But do not feel bad - he is a professional and uses other well respected professionals respected research.
You really seem to be quite thick. Let me make it easy for you.

Our aims are not the same. His aim is to check if RTW states are better than non-RTW states. (I think he fails this task miserably, because there are so many factors he didn't include.)

That was never my aim. My aim was to check what states are richer. You do not become richer by having more black people. I just adjusted for one factor, and that is cost of living, because that is the only relevant factor. RTW states are richer than non RTW states.

Also, you didn't even bother to respond about the points I made about his research, and how he is cherrypicking states. I guess that illustrate what kind of person you are.
 
So your justification of ignorance is the existence of other ignorance?

They are using Marx as their backing and not those individuals that are long forgotten. All I'm doing is making it clear to everyone what they are doing.

Furthermore, I'm not going to do a history lesson very time I post so I'm going to reference the philosophy being used by my opponents.
 
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They are using Marx as their backing and not those individuals that are long forgotten. All I'm doing is making it clear to everyone what they are doing.

Furthermore, I'm not going to do a history lesson very time I post so I'm going to reference the philosophy being used by my opponents.

Don't you guys on the far right ever get tired of having your knee hit with that little rubber hammer?
 
You really seem to be quite thick. Let me make it easy for you.

Our aims are not the same. His aim is to check if RTW states are better than non-RTW states. (I think he fails this task miserably, because there are so many factors he didn't include.)

So lets see now...

Lafer includes forty different factors when he compares wages and you proudly state you fail to do that including only one. And then you criticize him for failing to include so many different factors while you yourself look at but one.

Got it. ;):roll:
 
I am not an American, so I can't vote. I am happy about that. America treats its expats terrible. ...

It will bring a sense of reality back to public unions in Wisconsin, and maybe they will realize that if they are going to function, then they can't prey on the working class.

No offense, but these are related. You seem to be getting a picture of the life of teachers from right wing sources that are giving you a ludicrously distorted picture of reality. I grew up with two public school teacher parents. We certainly were not poor, but nobody would ever have thought to describe as as upper middle class. More like lower middle class when I was growing up and middle class later on. For example, my parents didn't have anywhere near enough money or income to take on a full fledged mortgage even in the low cost of living rural location we lived in. So, they bought some land out in the woods, bought some tools, and with the volunteer help from some of their friends that knew what they were doing, they cut down trees on their land and built their own house. It took about a year, during which time we lived in a trailer. They didn't really have enough money to finish the house, so we lived in it sort of mostly finished for many years. For example, my parents' bedroom wall was exposed insulation for about 10 years. Every year or so they would save up enough money to put counter tops in in the kitchen or fix up the driveway or whatever and they eventually managed to finish the house about 15 years after we moved into it. Don't get me wrong, this isn't some sob story. I loved living there. I had tons of woods to play around in, we always had good, healthy, food. My mom grew a fair amount of it herself in a huge garden. It was a good life, but certainly if you're imagining that teachers are like living high on the hog taking advantage of people for their own enrichment or something... Well, that's absurdly far off the mark. Like I said earlier, when my mom retired after 30 some years of teaching, a master's degree plus 45 credits, after having written a reading curriculum that was nationally recognized, and working far more hours total per year than the average person, she was making $41k. Starting teachers in the town I grew up in today start at around $18k. If you have a family of 3 and only one wage earner, that is below the poverty line.

But what really annoys me the most about unions is that they think they should decide their wage and not the market

The market is the price that gets negotiated between employers and employees. In the public sector there is really only one employer- the government. For many jobs that's the only employer. For example, there is no "market price" for firemen, it is just whatever the government sets the rate at. Unions aren't an alternative to the market, they are an attempt to even out the negotiating positions between the employer and the employees. When there is only one employer, they have incredible power at the negotiating table, and without collective bargaining, the employee has essentially no negotiating power at all. Unions are a way to fix that.

Also, for public sector unions there is a key role that they play. It is a check on political whim destroying people's lives. All it takes is some politician runs on some hype about slashing government salaries and bam, all these people who made the patriotic choice to serve their country or state, who are now committed to that path get totally screwed so some politician can score cheap points. For example a teacher with 10 years of experience isn't going to go start over in some other field, so they're at the mercy of the government really. If there is no union and some tool gets elected and decides that he doesn't want to honor the terms that were in place when they agreed to take that path, they have no real protection. They're a particularly vulnerable type of worker because they often don't have a choice to just change employers like we do in the private sector. They're stuck with "take it or leave it".
 
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Why don't you demonstrate how to both build and support a case? If I had zero like you claim that would be exactly what your fee would be worth.

You can start with Marx. You can tell us how others discovered certain ideas hundreds and even thousands of years before he did but you still label the ideas as Marxism just the same.

Perhaps the progressive income tax would be a suitable topic for you to start with?

there are very few original ideas in a species that has existed for thousands of years. Marx just happened to do a job of popularizing them,. Your request is dismissed as being silly and designed to divert or delay. if Marx adopted ideas and others call them "marxist" then that is good enough for this forum

heavy inheritance tax is a plank of the Communist manifesto. look it up
 
Don't you guys on the far right ever get tired of having your knee hit with that little rubber hammer?

don't you people who are the reactionary far left get tired of the same silly comments over and over such as the stupid hammer crap and calling anyone who doesn't believe in hating the rich "far right"
 
So lets see now...

Lafer includes forty different factors when he compares wages and you proudly state you fail to do that including only one. And then you criticize him for failing to include so many different factors while you yourself look at but one.

Got it. ;):roll:
What part of Our aims are not the same, is difficult for you to understand? Do you have some kind of mental problem I should know about? His aim is to check if RTW states are better. My aim is to check who earns more. They are not the same, hence I do not need to adjust for the same amount of factors.

I do not know how many factors he adjusted for. If he actually adjusted for all of these factors, then how exactly do you adjust household income with the age of the state. To be honest I hardly think he adjust for any other factors than cost of living and demographics. If he really adjusted for age of the state and unemployment rate, then his study is just pure BS.

I have also pointed out holes in his research, I have stated them 3 times now. You have pretended like I didn't write it 3 times. So you are pretty much trying to be an ass, because you are unable to argue for your points.
 
I asked you earlier if this was about one tax paid to one level of government - the federal income tax. Your reply was NOPE.

No, you asked if my point that the wealthy were not paying ridiculously lower taxes now than they had before was limited to the income tax. I replied that it was not, and sourced my refutation of the claim, for both nominal and effective rates. You were trying to derail off of an lpast rant, where reality is optional and anger is required, and I shut you down.

You want to get back to talking about public employee unions and benefits? Fine. Here is a direct question for you:

Do you or do you not favor government honoring its contractual commitments to those who fulfilled there contractual commitments to government during their period of employment?

And I think I have provided the same answer to you several times now. Contracts negotiated in bad faith by both actors should not be held as binding by current state and local governments when doing so would effectively destroy those governments' solvency. Many of our counties and a couple of our states are staring at bankruptcy. California is a fiscal nightmare, and not a little of that is due to the fact that 80% of the money goes to the politically all-powerful public unions.

As much as we can, I am in favor of altering conditions only for current and future workers, with reasonable grandfathering. When they looked at changing the military retirement package, for example, I was in favor of allowing the guys who hadn't finished their full careers receive pro-rated pensions (it would have been nice if we hadn't done that for guys on their last enlistment) and the TSP-match 401(k) style defined contribution benefit for the rest of their careers. In fact, long term, I think that is a better direction for the military to move in: that way guys don't get "trapped" at the 10-18 year marks by the need to "finish their time", but can leave with some benefit earlier. People don't work for the same organization for decades anymore like they used to, and a plan that acknowledges that will offer greater flexibility to the employer and the employed. Better for them, better for the military. But when you run into situations like the Democrat Mayor of San Jose did, where your options are to continue to pay outsized benefits packages or to provide needed public services, then fire stations take priority over guaranteed COLA increases.

And now I will ask you a direct question:

Given that when offered the option, it seems that half to a majority of public union members prefer to opt out, and given that the movement to limit Public Unions is coming from both parties, how do you justify your vote that Public Unions will end up stronger? What social, political, or economic force do you see driving that result?
 
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Don't you guys on the far right ever get tired of having your knee hit with that little rubber hammer?

What do you think happened when the philosophy of Marxism was proven a failure? I will give you hint, you believe in the latest version.
 
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What part of Our aims are not the same, is difficult for you to understand? Do you have some kind of mental problem I should know about? His aim is to check if RTW states are better. My aim is to check who earns more. They are not the same, hence I do not need to adjust for the same amount of factors.

I do not know how many factors he adjusted for. If he actually adjusted for all of these factors, then how exactly do you adjust household income with the age of the state. To be honest I hardly think he adjust for any other factors than cost of living and demographics. If he really adjusted for age of the state and unemployment rate, then his study is just pure BS.

I have also pointed out holes in his research, I have stated them 3 times now. You have pretended like I didn't write it 3 times. So you are pretty much trying to be an ass, because you are unable to argue for your points.

Worth noting also is the selection bias. Since unions artificially increase the cost of labor, they depress demand - which is why workers have been leaving Union states for Right to Work states, in pursuit of jobs. So the jobs that are left having higher costs to the employer should rightfully be counted against the unemployment those higher costs have created.
 
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