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Beginning of the End for Public Unions?

Last two years beginning of a downward slide for Public Sector Unions?

  • Yes, their power has waxed and now it shall wane.

    Votes: 40 62.5%

  • Unions will respond and their power will grow.

    Votes: 14 21.9%

  • It depends on November.

    Votes: 10 15.6%
  • Total voters
    64
teamosil said:
So, again, for the 100th time, none of that counters the argument at all. As you know.
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You keep spewing that crud as if it convinces anyone other than the other advocates of parasitic government

you cannot deny what I have said-its iron clad fact that the richest one percent have the greatest gap between their share of the national income and their share of the federal INCOME tax burden

refute that? you have not come close. in fact your evasive BS is proof you cannot
 
teamosil said:
So, again, for the 100th time, none of that counters the argument at all. As you know.
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He knows. However, facts do not deter him. Reality does not deter him.

This is simply about one thing and only one thing above all else: Turtle believes. This is a matter of faith.
 
haymarket said:
He knows. However, facts do not deter him. Reality does not deter him.

This is simply about one thing and only one thing above all else: Turtle believes. This is a matter of faith.
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Lets see-I posted indisputable facts and two advocates of parasitic government merely engaged in nattering nothings in response
 
TurtleDude said:
you cannot deny what I have said-its iron clad fact that the richest one percent have the greatest gap between their share of the national income and their share of the federal INCOME tax burden
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Seriously?!?! You honestly are going to pull the "I really am just too stupid to understand even after having it explained to me a thousand times" angle with me? You aren't humiliated to stoop that low? Obviously you're fully aware of what you're doing. You're just selectively pointing only to the progressive taxes in a system that is a mix of progressive and regressive taxes, and blurting out that they are progressive. There really is no way you aren't capable of understanding why that is a problem. I've explained it to you SOOOO many different ways patiently over and over like I'm talking to a three year old, but still you pretend not to get it. It's just shameful.
 
teamosil said:
Seriously?!?! You honestly are going to pull the "I really am just too stupid to understand even after having it explained to me a thousand times" angle with me? You aren't humiliated to stoop that low? Obviously you're fully aware of what you're doing. You're just selectively pointing only to the progressive taxes in a system that is a mix of progressive and regressive taxes, and blurting out that they are progressive. There really is no way you aren't capable of understanding why that is a problem. I've explained it to you SOOOO many different ways patiently over and over like I'm talking to a three year old, but still you pretend not to get it. It's just shameful.
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1) your unsupported assertions that

a) you are smarter than me despite your dependency on government
b) and your inability to do anything other than claim you are right

are pathetic

2) also pathetic is pretending that regressive taxes matter when discussing progressive taxes or that state taxes matter when discussing federal taxes

3) the federal income tax scheme falls rather heavily on the top one percent-a fact you cannot dispute but you then whine about other taxes

no matter what you whine about, the rich pay far more of the TOTAL federal taxes than any other group and this is especially true when dealing with the FIT and completely true when dealing with the estate or death tax.

Your sanctimonious airs are a facade for you inability to deal with reality. You aren't smarter than me or most of the other posters on this board and your posts are rather pathetic
 
lpast said:
shhh no one pays attention to your whining we know its all contrived bs....the top 1% have all the money they stole it off the 99% and we WILL get more off you...and I will remind you gleefully when it happens my friend :)
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and there it is in all it's splendor... the contemporary liberal agenda.


nobody stole your money dude...that's delusional in the extreme.

If you need money, come see me... if the situation is to my liking, i'll give you money or loan it to you...
no need to turn into a common thief , using the government as your gun, in order to get money....
you're a cop, you should know better than to turn to a life of crime.
 
Thrilla said:
and there it is in all it's splendor... the contemporary liberal agenda.


nobody stole your money dude...that's delusional in the extreme.

If you need money, come see me... if the situation is to my liking, i'll give you money or loan it to you...
no need to turn into a common thief , using the government as your gun, in order to get money....
you're a cop, you should know better than to turn to a life of crime.
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there are two types of the parasite advocates

1) you get the "IF YOU ALL DON'T GIVE US MORE MONEY we will kill you or take it from you by force

2) and the slightly less toxic

WE WILL USE THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE YOUR WEALTH

same mindset. the latter tend to be more cowardly though
 
TurtleDude said:
you are smarter than me despite your dependency on government
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What are you talking about? I'm not dependent on the government, but obviously that is no test of intelligence... Paris Hilton isn't dependent on the government. Tons of college kids on financial aid on the other hand, are incredibly smart.

TurtleDude said:
2) also pathetic is pretending that regressive taxes matter when discussing progressive taxes or that state taxes matter when discussing federal taxes
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It is so infuriating to me that you still pretend you don't understand. You think you can prove that the tax system is progressive just by looking only at the elements of it that are progressive. That is like saying that Americans all men and using as your evidence a sample of 10 people that you picked because they are all men. There is no way, no way at all, that you honestly don't understand how moronic that is. It just isn't possible. I mean, sure, maybe you had a mental lapse the first time you said it and didn't spot the obvious error... But the 1,000th time you've been called out on it?1
 
teamosil said:
What are you talking about? I'm not dependent on the government, but obviously that is no test of intelligence... Paris Hilton isn't dependent on the government. Tons of college kids on financial aid on the other hand, are incredibly smart.



It is so infuriating to me that you still pretend you don't understand. You think you can prove that the tax system is progressive just by looking only at the elements of it that are progressive. That is like saying that Americans all men and using as your evidence a sample of 10 people that you picked because they are all men. There is no way, no way at all, that you honestly don't understand how moronic that is. It just isn't possible. I mean, sure, maybe you had a mental lapse the first time you said it and didn't spot the obvious error... But the 1,000th time you've been called out on it?1
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4 minutes and that is the best you can come up with? more spewage and no sound argument?

I am merely talking about progressive taxes when talking about progressive taxes. The tax system has progressive rates, and flat rates and fixed fees. I don't mix them unlike you lefties who whine that the poor's overall tax rate is X compared to the rich. On progressive taxes, the rich pay a much higher rate on like income than the middle class and the poor.

Until you can refute what I said rather than constantly saying you did it without ever referencing where, I can only conclude you feel a need to respond but don't have the ability to actually post anything of merit. The rich pay far more of the federal income tax than any other group. the top 5% pay more than the rest of the country. We get the fact that you think others should pay more so you can have more government.

that is hardly a factually tsunami
 
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TurtleDude said:
I am merely talking about progressive taxes when talking about progressive taxes. The tax system has progressive rates, and flat rates and fixed fees. I don't mix them unlike you lefties who whine that the poor's overall tax rate is X compared to the rich. On progressive taxes, the rich pay a much higher rate on like income than the middle class and the poor
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So you are just pointing out that "progressive taxes are progressive"... That's a useful piece of analysis in your opinion? You understand that would be true in any tax system whatsoever, right? If we had 1% of the taxes being progressive and 99% of them being regressive, you could still sit around and whine about how the system is too progressive so long as you're willing to ignore the taxes that aren't... It's just stupid man. Think about it for one second. Just one second. That's all I ask.
 
teamosil said:
So you are just pointing out that "progressive taxes are progressive"... That's a useful piece of analysis in your opinion? You understand that would be true in any tax system whatsoever, right? If we had 1% of the taxes being progressive and 99% of them being regressive, you could still sit around and whine about how the system is too progressive so long as you're willing to ignore the taxes that aren't... It's just stupid man. Think about it for one second. Just one second. That's all I ask.
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The problem with taxing the rich is that even if you took all of their wealth, 100% of it, it would still not pay for the expenditures of our government and would destroy our economy. Our current progressive tax system allows half of all Americans to pay no income tax or receive a refund on taxes they did not pay. I am in favor of a progressive tax structure, but it seems you are attempting to make a point that isn't true. I say attempting because I've read your past couple posts waiting for an actual point to be made, but it never happened. It's just banter.
 
cpwill said:
Lately we have seen Republican and Democrat (though, oddly, only Republicans make news with it) Governors work to save their states from fiscal ruin by curtailing the Public Unions, either in finances or in power. Have the last two years marked the beginning of the end for the Public Sector Union, and will they go the way of the Private Sector Union?
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All unions, one of the obstacles to a fascist state will soon be gone. Yippie!!! :doh
 
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digsbe said:
Unions are a good way for employees to discuss issues with employers. I still think it's important to have employee organization to voice these concerns (A Union or smaller group).
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Anytime I have had an issue to discuss with employers, all I did was go in and discuss those with them. I have found them open to talking with me, believe it or not! In my way of thinking, Unions are simply mafia-like thugs who bring threats to the table.
 
Comfort Food said:
The problem with taxing the rich is that even if you took all of their wealth, 100% of it, it would still not pay for the expenditures of our government
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No, that is not even remotely close to true. The top 1% have enough wealth to cover the entire deficit forever. The top 1% own 35% of all the wealth of the country. The total wealth of the US is around $70 trillion. So, 35% of $70 trillion would be $24.5 trillion. If you assume a 5% rate of return each year, that would be enough to cover the entire deficit every year forever without dipping into the principle.

Comfort Food said:
Our current progressive tax system allows half of all Americans to pay no income tax or receive a refund on taxes they did not pay. I am in favor of a progressive tax structure, but it seems you are attempting to make a point that isn't true. I say attempting because I've read your past couple posts waiting for an actual point to be made, but it never happened. It's just banter.
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When you look at all taxes, our system is fairly mildly progressive up most of the way (people in poverty pay 16%, somebody who is very well off, but still has to work, pays 31%. But then it drops way off for the rich. Somebody who makes many millions a year from investments only pays 15% or so.
 
cpwill said:
Lately we have seen Republican and Democrat (though, oddly, only Republicans make news with it) Governors work to save their states from fiscal ruin by curtailing the Public Unions, either in finances or in power. Have the last two years marked the beginning of the end for the Public Sector Union, and will they go the way of the Private Sector Union?
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"He wants another stimulus, he wants to hire more government workers...He says we need more firemen, more policemen, more teachers. Did he not get the message of Wisconsin? The American people did. It's time for us to cut back on government and help the American people."
– Mitt Romney, June 8th, 2012

Union thugs.jpg
 
Flippinfunky said:
View attachment 67128940
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Such dishonest BS. There is a difference between union thugs and union workers. Union workers are generally honest hard working people. Union thugs are the ones that just sit around and lie their asses off demanding crap that they do not deserve. They're normally called Union Bosses or Union Leaders.
 
randel said:
mmmmm no it is not.....strike two
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wow, what a well-reasoned and thoroughly argued point. Here, I'll see you and I'll raise you a "Yes, it is. Employees who wish to be part of a union are free to go work with one."
 
lpast said:
Right at the height of the teaparty assault on public unions and after the wisconsin recall vote...still more americans support public unions than do not....that number will GROW as the teaparty and conservative support diminishs...and make no mistake it will diminish and big time.
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Walker won recall with a bigger margin of victory than he won the original election. Where do you see this backlash of pro-public-union-depredation?

49% Favor Public Employee Unions, 46% Oppose.....thats ater the recall vote in wisc, if public unions were in the great decline that Cpwill and turtledude say then they should be in the 30s....oops but they are still on top with all the MILLIONS the krotch bros and Rove have spent

49% Favor Public Employee Unions, 46% Oppose - Rasmussen Reports™
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openness to the existence of public sector unions does not translate to automatic support for wrecking state and local governments in order to provide them with above-average compensation packages.

;) and you may want to check that back a few years, and see what the direction of travel is. My guess is, you won't like it.
 
samsmart said:
If they do it will be only bad for federal, state, and municipal governments.
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Federal government workers aren't unionized.

It's not the public sector unions that are bankrupting these state and local governments. Rather, its the pension plans that they don't fund.
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That they didn't fund, or that they did fund, but allowing the pension funds to make ridiculous growth assumptions. Along with exploding healthcare costs.

The fact is that Public Unions negotiated benefits packages that the States and Localities were never going to be able to afford, putting money in or no. But it was in the best interest of both people at the table to give union members a big win that they would never be on the hook for - as both the union negotiators and politicians would long since be retired by then.

So it would make more sense to get rid of pension plans and instead have a 401K plan that governments must pay into for every paycheck the worker gets than have these pension plans. And the union can help negotiate these plans for the workers.
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True, we are going to move from defined-benefit to defined-contribution in most sectors - eventually to include not just public pensions, but Social Security as well. Defined-benefit simply turned out to be too unwieldy, unsuited for the modern job market, and too expensive. Private enterprise went first, then states and localities, and finally the Federal government will have to follow.

But that is a healthy compromise that makes way too much sense that doesn't feed into any of the partisan ideology of either side and will actually work for the mutual benefit of government workers and government administrators, and we just cannot have that in our country.
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Well it doesn't help that public unions have spent the last couple of decades ideologically positioning themselves against capitalism and the market.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Such dishonest BS. There is a difference between union thugs and union workers. Union workers are generally honest hard working people. Union thugs are the ones that just sit around and lie their asses off demanding crap that they do not deserve. They're normally called Union Bosses or Union Leaders.
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Mitt Romney doesn't seem to think so...he doesn't think we need more firemen, policemen and teachers. How many Public sector union "workers" agree with the notion that they're "thugs"?

If you're going to answer with "plenty" let me advance my reply: There's nothing worse than a union worker who hates the union. Find another job then.
 
randel said:
no strawman, the absolute truth..and cp, you already have the 'right to work'...you don't have to work in a union shop, you can find a non union shop to your liking. to pretend that you don't have a choice is absurd and dishonest.
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I'm fine with choice and I'm fine with the existence of closed shops - just so long as the system is balanced and non-union shops are allowed as well :). Government should not tilt the scales in favor of either employees or business owners; they should rather be left to work things out between themselves.
 
cartoon4.jpg
 
Flippinfunky said:
Mitt Romney doesn't seem to think so...he doesn't think we need more firemen, policemen and teachers. How many Public sector union "workers" agree with the notion that they're "thugs"?

If you're going to answer with "plenty" let me advance my reply: There's nothing worse than a union worker who hates the union. Find another job then.
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First and foremost. I don't give a crap what Romney thinks or says. Appeals to authority don't mean squat.

Why should they find another job? What the hell kind of mentality does it take to demand someone join their union just because they want to do the same job as those in that union?

And of course union thugs wouldn't agree with the notion that they're "thugs". That has a negative connotation to it. You can call horse dung a rose if you wanted to...but in the end it is still horse dung.
 
"History is a great teacher. Now everyone knows that the labor movement did not diminish the strength of the nation but enlarged it. By raising the living standards of millions, labor miraculously created a market for industry and lifted the whole nation to undreamed of levels of production. Those who attack labor forget these simple truths, but history remembers them."

Martin Luther King Jr.
 
Catawba said:
"History is a great teacher. Now everyone knows that the labor movement did not diminish the strength of the nation but enlarged it. By raising the living standards of millions, labor miraculously created a market for industry and lifted the whole nation to undreamed of levels of production. Those who attack labor forget these simple truths, but history remembers them."

Martin Luther King Jr.
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public sector unions do not raise standard of living for millions, they create no market for industry, and we are talking about state government.. production doesn't enter into the equation as the don't produce anything.
 
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