Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

TurtleDude said:

I suggest people like you pay the same rates I do and better yet-the same amount of taxes. when you do I might consider your rants about the rates of the rich to have some merit

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Why do you want me to pay as much as you? So you and your kind can steal from the middle class even more than you already do?

MoSurveyor said:

Why do you want me to pay as much as you? So you and your kind can steal from the middle class even more than you already do?

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you demand more government services than I do, you want more government than I do-time for you to man up and pay for what you want

ttwtt78640 said:

We see what happens when morons are given public housing, they tear it up, as it cost them nothing and therefore has no value. If they tear it up then they simply demand new public housing. People live poor, where I live, but they take care of their property because nobody will give them a replacement. People tend to value ONLY what they pay for,by EARNING IT, not what they are simply given.

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Now it's you ignoring reality ... and stereo-typing. Most poor people don't tear things up like that so quit acting like they do. Just like most populations, it's a few percent at best that are responsible for the problems. Regardless of how much you'd like to believe it, the poor are not sub-human.

TurtleDude said:

you demand more government services than I do, you want more government than I do-time for you to man up and pay for what you want

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We've been through this many times - I demand very little in the way of any kind of services. I live a relativity simple life. It's you and the Jet Set crowd that suck down all the best that society has to offer while whining about your pocket change being used to pay for some of it.

MoSurveyor said:

Now it's you ignoring reality ... and stereo-typing. Most poor people don't tear things up like that so quit acting like they do. Just like most populations, it's a few percent at best that are responsible for the problems. Regardless of how much you'd like to believe it, the poor are not sub-human.

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Really? I can show you a LOT of private housing that is 80 to 100 years old, you show me public housing that is over 30 years old. I will not attempt to dispute your assertion that it is a minority doing the damage, but the majority allow it by remaining silent about it.

ttwtt78640 said:

Really? I can show you a LOT of private housing that is 80 to 100 years old, you show me public housing that is over 30 years old. I will not attempt to dispute your assertion that it is a minority doing the damage, but the majority allow it by remaining silent about it.

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LOL! Like they can change what's going on. I know you understand the real issues so quit pretending otherwise. Or are you really that clueless about poor society???

ttwtt78640 said:

Really? I can show you a LOT of private housing that is 80 to 100 years old, you show me public housing that is over 30 years old. I will not attempt to dispute your assertion that it is a minority doing the damage, but the majority allow it by remaining silent about it.

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you are correct. those in section 8 housing or other government subsidized stuff are far less likely to take care of it.

Bodhisattva said:

Stats... I love it.

If a millionaire donates 10,000 they are still left with 990,000 dollars
If I donate 10,000 I am left with 75,000

Of course they give the most. That really doesn't mean much though especially if much of that is a tax write off.

It is there right but should it be? Much of my family living the life of luxury... golfing and drinking and travelling the world all the time while never once working in their life while others work two jobs 7 days a week and barely survive? Anybody who thinks that this is OK has a ****ing problem.

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Firstly, life isn't fair. I'm sorry if you haven't learned that yet. It was never intended to be fair. The fact that bad things happen to good people is proof of this.

Secondly, the obligation one human being has to another is based on his own morals, values, and conscience. That obligation is not determined by society or by government.

Thirdly, manipulating how the wealth is "distributed" from person to person is theft. It is not one man's fault that another man is poor. Money is created. There is infinite potential for increased wealth. The great thing about America is that if you are unhappy with your lot in life, you can change it. You will not make it any more or any less "fair," but your hard work, ambition, and committment can generate wealth for you.

Where liberals are incorrect (at the most basic level) is when they claim that the lower eschelons of society (in terms of wealth and income) can do nothing to better themselves. It always happens to be someone else's fault.

This entire mentality is based in envy, rather than logic. Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. Envy is bad.

kamikaze483 said:

Secondly, the obligation one human being has to another is based on his own morals, values, and conscience. That obligation is not determined by society or by government.

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If society does not protect the weak from the powerful then what good is society?

kamikaze483 said:

Thirdly, manipulating how the wealth is "distributed" from person to person is theft. It is not one man's fault that another man is poor. Money is created. There is infinite potential for increased wealth. The great thing about America is that if you are unhappy with your lot in life, you can change it. You will not make it any more or any less "fair," but your hard work, ambition, and committment can generate wealth for you.

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Or it can leave you working 60 hours a week and still barely able to support a family, which is by far the more common situation.

kamikaze483 said:

Where liberals are incorrect (at the most basic level) is when they claim that the lower eschelons of society (in terms of wealth and income) can do nothing to better themselves. It always happens to be someone else's fault.

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Plenty of data showing upward mobility in America is virtually nonexistent.

kamikaze483 said:

This entire mentality is based in envy, rather than logic. Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. Envy is bad.

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This entire mentality is based on greed rather than logic. Greed is one of the seven deadly sins. Greed is bad.

If society does not protect the weak from the powerful then what good is society?

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I don't believe that the poor are being victimized by the rich by and large. I believe this is a "phantom villain," created by the left in an attempt to lay all the world's ills at the feet of the successful. I strongly believe that the class envy that has bubbled so mightily to the surface over the last 4 years has less to do with actual economics and more to do with overthrowing capitalism for a more socialistic form of government. This type of political ploy (tricking the people) is the same tactic this administration was trying to use in Fast and Furious- running guns to Mexico to create a problem with American guns in Mexico- all in effort to create a crisis which might lead to more stringent gun control. It is the same concept with the wealth envy. I can't argue your point because I don't believe it to be valid.

Or it can leave you working 60 hours a week and still barely able to support a family, which is by far the more common situation.

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If you can show me how the wealthy are responsible for this I will entertain the argument. You can't just list problems and say that the wealthy are responsible for it. If you taxed the wealthy at 100%, this would be a third world country within 2 years. They are critical to the growth of our economy. When was the last time you saw a welfare recipient create a job?

Plenty of data showing upward mobility in America is virtually nonexistent.

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Possibly. The country is in a recession. This would be something that one would expect to see during times of recession. How could upward mobility be positively impacted? (Hint: it isn't raising taxes on corporations.)

This entire mentality is based on greed rather than logic. Greed is one of the seven deadly sins. Greed is bad.

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Perhaps. Perhaps greed is also bad. But it is not illegal. Neither is envy. If I have 10 apples and you have none, and I refuse to give you an apple, that is my right- because it's my goddamned apple. End of story.

kamikaze483 said:

Possibly. The country is in a recession. This would be something that one would expect to see during times of recession. How could upward mobility be positively impacted? (Hint: it isn't raising taxes on corporations.)

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It's prevalent as far back as we have reliable data, not just the last few years.

Since I generally believe raising taxes on corporations is not a good thing I don't know what you're going on about.

kamikaze483 said:

Perhaps. Perhaps greed is also bad. But it is not illegal. Neither is envy. If I have 10 apples and you have none, and I refuse to give you an apple, that is my right- because it's my goddamned apple. End of story.

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If you and I were isolated on an island then my obvious response would be violence since the possibility of starving to death would leave me no other alternative than to fight for my life and take your apples if I can. This is called survival and just because capitalism has idealized it doesn't mean real life survival has disappeared. Society isn't some thought experiment. There are real people out here and many die for no other reason than someone else's greed. People will not willingly die for the greed of others. Since many do die for another's greed it's obvious the greedy ones exercise a threat of violence over those less fortunate. That these threats are legal is verification that society is failing to protect the weak.

kamikaze483 said:

If you can show me how the wealthy are responsible for this I will entertain the argument. You can't just list problems and say that the wealthy are responsible for it. If you taxed the wealthy at 100%, this would be a third world country within 2 years. They are critical to the growth of our economy. When was the last time you saw a welfare recipient create a job?

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Every dollar a welfare recipient spends creates jobs. The fallacy is that the rich are solely responsible for job creation. Business have been re-learning this simple truth since the Crash. Demand creates jobs, not capital. If there is no demand, no consumer spending, then there are on jobs.

MoSurveyor said:

Every dollar a welfare recipient spends creates jobs. The fallacy is that the rich are solely responsible for job creation. Business have been re-learning this simple truth since the Crash. Demand creates jobs, not capital. If there is no demand, no consumer spending, then there are on jobs.

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It is a balance between supply and demand. This is a capitalistic principal.

If you and I were isolated on an island then my obvious response would be violence since the possibility of starving to death would leave me no other alternative than to fight for my life and take your apples if I can. This is called survival and just because capitalism has idealized it doesn't mean real life survival has disappeared. Society isn't some thought experiment. There are real people out here and many die for no other reason than someone else's greed. People will not willingly die for the greed of others. Since many do die for another's greed it's obvious the greedy ones exercise a threat of violence over those less fortunate. That these threats are legal is verification that society is failing to protect the weak.

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I agree with the principal of survival of the fittest. I would challenge you to prove to me that a person died recently due to the greed of another. I don't believe that has happened. Even if someone has died, they have died, perhaps, of starvation- starvation due to the fact that they haven't killed anything and drug it home. Those who have "killed it and drug it home" did not prevent the other man from doing so. There is plenty of game to "kill." No sense in saying that because I have food and you don't and you die from starvation- that I killed you. Ridiculous.

If you and I were on an island, and I had apples and you didn't, you would rather resort to violence than to sit back, think, and say to yourself "Gee. If he has apples, there must be a ****ing apple tree!"

It's prevalent as far back as we have reliable data, not just the last few years.

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Upward mobility exists. Maybe not in all industries, but I have worked in several- and worked my way up the ladder each time. By hard work. I disagree that there is no upward mobility.

A lot of immigrants came over from Europe a little while back. Came through Ellis Island in search of opportunity. They found it here, starting small businesses, hiring people- many of them becoming wealthy. The problem is that people aren't willing to put in the work to obtain the "upward mobility." Just want to blame others for their lack of success.

MoSurveyor said:

Every dollar a welfare recipient spends creates jobs. The fallacy is that the rich are solely responsible for job creation. Business have been re-learning this simple truth since the Crash. Demand creates jobs, not capital. If there is no demand, no consumer spending, then there are on jobs.

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spending money on crack, lottery tickets etc doesn't do much for society. No one has said the rich are solely responsible for job creation. But what I find disgusting is that so many on the left think one's wealth is completely subordinate to the "good of society" (in reality the good of dem politicians)and that taxes should be based solely on perceived ability to pay

kamikaze483 said:

It is a balance between supply and demand. This is a capitalistic principal.

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Without demand supply is useless. You can't make money from 1000 widgets if no one wants or can afford a widget.

kamikaze483 said:

I agree with the principal of survival of the fittest. I would challenge you to prove to me that a person died recently due to the greed of another. I don't believe that has happened. Even if someone has died, they have died, perhaps, of starvation- starvation due to the fact that they haven't killed anything and drug it home. Those who have "killed it and drug it home" did not prevent the other man from doing so. There is plenty of game to "kill." No sense in saying that because I have food and you don't and you die from starvation- that I killed you. Ridiculous.

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It's starting to get hot in many places across the country right now. Just watch the news papers and lets see how many old people die from heat stroke because they lack a fan and/or the electricity to run it. They die by the hundreds every year. In winter they freeze to death. People usually die from disease brought on by malnutrition instead of dying from actual starvation. There's no denying the deaths in this country from greed.


If you mean there are plenty of jobs ("game to kill"), that's pure horsecrap. Take your lies elsewhere.

kamikaze483 said:

If you and I were on an island, and I had apples and you didn't, you would rather resort to violence than to sit back, think, and say to yourself "Gee. If he has apples, there must be a ****ing apple tree!"

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According to you guys everything has an owner and since you called them your apples I assumed you owned the tree. If it's your tree then they're your apples and you'd call it theft whether I took the apples from the tree or from your hoard.

Or are you advocating that society own the means of production?

kamikaze483 said:

Upward mobility exists. Maybe not in all industries, but I have worked in several- and worked my way up the ladder each time. By hard work. I disagree that there is no upward mobility.

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This is what you call upward mobility?!?!?

:lamo :lamo :lamo

TurtleDude said:

spending money on crack, lottery tickets etc doesn't do much for society.

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Something like 48% of the lotto money goes to education. I can't help the stupidity of government that makes selling drugs a billion dollar industry.

TurtleDude said:

No one has said the rich are solely responsible for job creation.

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Yeah, the term "job creators" just appeared spontaneously. :lamo

Republicans are great at The Big Lie.

TurtleDude said:

But what I find disgusting is that so many on the left think one's wealth is completely subordinate to the "good of society" (in reality the good of dem politicians)and that taxes should be based solely on perceived ability to pay

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The rich eat and eat and eat then whine when presented with the bill.

MoSurveyor said:

Something like 48% of the lotto money goes to education. I can't help the stupidity of government that makes selling drugs a billion dollar industry.

Yeah, the term "job creators" just appeared spontaneously. :lamo

Republicans are great at The Big Lie.

The rich eat and eat and eat then whine when presented with the bill.

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still posting under the delusion that the rich are somehow given your money?

TurtleDude said:

its irrelevant. That wealth was purchased with income already taxed. If I make a million dollars a year and have 500K left over after expenses and taxes and I buy my wife an expensive painting or a summer cottage why should I pay tax on that wealth?

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Because that is the way things work. Do you know what sales tax is? Do you know what property tax is? I can provide some links if they would help you.

TurtleDude said:

still posting under the delusion that the rich are somehow given your money?

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Still posting under the delusion that the value of you and yours is the same as the value of me and mine?


It's odd how the rich always seem the poorest come April 15th.

MoSurveyor said:

Still posting under the delusion that the value of you and yours is the same as the value of me and mine?


It's odd how the rich always seem the poorest come April 15th.

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Just how much is the GOVERNMENT'S "fair" share of ANY citizens income? Why is this NOT the same PERCENTAGE, after a reasonable "standard" deduction, for all citizens. We see ONE vote, per citizen, as "fair" regardless of whether any taxation is paid. The income tax code should have only TWO numbers, a TRUELY "standard" dedcution of perhaps $20K (for each individual return) and a SINGLE taxation rate of ALL income (over that amount) at say 20%; the income tax would then be FAIR, flat and progressive - all at the same time. It would also prevent the DC morons from constantly tinkering with it, at the behest of lobbyists, in exchange for mountains of campaign cash.

Without demand supply is useless. You can't make money from 1000 widgets if no one wants or can afford a widget.

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Agreed. This would cause a reduction in the price of widgets. The widgets will still sell, but their value is diminished due to decreased demand for the widgets- assuming the widgets are a good product that people WANT or NEED.

It's starting to get hot in many places across the country right now. Just watch the news papers and lets see how many old people die from heat stroke because they lack a fan and/or the electricity to run it. They die by the hundreds every year. In winter they freeze to death. People usually die from disease brought on by malnutrition instead of dying from actual starvation. There's no denying the deaths in this country from greed.


If you mean there are plenty of jobs ("game to kill"), that's pure horsecrap. Take your lies elsewhere.

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Firstly, lets assume that an elderly person did die from heatstroke and that the did not own a fan. How can you claim this results from greed? You made no effort to support your case. This is a logical jump that can not be made. A person died, therefore it is the fault of a particular segment of society. Nope. You lost this one buddy.

Additionally, if I wasn't speaking specifically in terms of jobs. I was speaking in terms of food- and income. As you stated, humans are essentially animals and would fight for their own survival. If so many people are hungry, how is it that Georgia as an overpopulation of white tailed deer? If you starve to death it is because you are sitting around waiting on someone to bring food to you. You want (or potentially need) to be supported by others. That doesn't obligate "others" to provide that support.

If I lost my job tomorrow, I could still find ways to generate income. I wouldn't be sitting on my ass waiting for the government to fix my life.

According to you guys everything has an owner and since you called them your apples I assumed you owned the tree. If it's your tree then they're your apples and you'd call it theft whether I took the apples from the tree or from your hoard.

Or are you advocating that society own the means of production?

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I'm certainly not advocating that. According to YOU GUYS, the only apples that exist are the ones owned by other people. There are more apples, and more apple trees. People have their blinders on and subscribe to this BS defeatist rhetoric. Go get your own tree. There are plenty of them out there. If you can't find a corporate job, find other ways to provide a service that others need or want. This is America. Land of opportunity. If you are sitting here telling me there is no opportunity, or that the opportunity is limited to the rich, you can take your "lies" elsewhere.

This is what you call upward mobility?!?!?

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Definition of UPWARD MOBILITY



: the capacity or facility for rising to a higher social or economic position

Point made.

kamikaze483 said:

Agreed. This would cause a reduction in the price of widgets. The widgets will still sell, but their value is diminished due to decreased demand for the widgets- assuming the widgets are a good product that people WANT or NEED.

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Want and need aren't enough - sorry. Most people that drive want a better car but there's a good reason they don't have one. Again, it's demand (aka consuming spending) that drives sales, not capital.

kamikaze483 said:

Firstly, lets assume that an elderly person did die from heatstroke and that the did not own a fan. How can you claim this results from greed? You made no effort to support your case. This is a logical jump that can not be made. A person died, therefore it is the fault of a particular segment of society. Nope. You lost this one buddy.

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It doesn't take a doctor to count dead bodies or an economist to conclude heat stroke victims die from a lack of money to provide fans and/or electrical power. If you need those easily visible lines drawn then we may as well back up and start asking for dictionary definitions beginning with 'a', then moving on to two letters words. :roll: Or maybe you think every dime in America is so tied up with other life-saving tasks that none can be spared for a fan for Mrs. Mertz?

kamikaze483 said:

Additionally, if I wasn't speaking specifically in terms of jobs. I was speaking in terms of food- and income. As you stated, humans are essentially animals and would fight for their own survival. If so many people are hungry, how is it that Georgia as an overpopulation of white tailed deer? If you starve to death it is because you are sitting around waiting on someone to bring food to you. You want (or potentially need) to be supported by others. That doesn't obligate "others" to provide that support.

If I lost my job tomorrow, I could still find ways to generate income. I wouldn't be sitting on my ass waiting for the government to fix my life.

I'm certainly not advocating that. According to YOU GUYS, the only apples that exist are the ones owned by other people. There are more apples, and more apple trees. People have their blinders on and subscribe to this BS defeatist rhetoric. Go get your own tree. There are plenty of them out there. If you can't find a corporate job, find other ways to provide a service that others need or want. This is America. Land of opportunity. If you are sitting here telling me there is no opportunity, or that the opportunity is limited to the rich, you can take your "lies" elsewhere.

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Everything is owned by someone. If you don't own it or you don't pay for it in some way then you're stealing
- aka theft.
- Shooting deer out of season is illegal and so is shooting them without a tag. It's called pouching.
- You could always resort to prostitution. That's illegal everywhere but Nevada.
You seem to be suggesting criminal activity of all kinds. How interesting.

Now if you just do a tiny bit of thinking you will understand the REAL issues here instead of what some right-wingnut website feeds you.

kamikaze483 said:

Definition of UPWARD MOBILITY
: the capacity or facility for rising to a higher social or economic position
Point made.

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"Rising to a higher social or economic position" doesn't mean making $5k more this year than last year.
Thank you for your acknowledgement of my point.

Want and need aren't enough - sorry. Most people that drive want a better car but there's a good reason they don't have one. Again, it's demand that drives sales, not capital.

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If no one wants or needs the product, it doesn't matter how much money they have- because they aren't going to buy it. Without supply, demand can not be met. As I said, it is a balance between supply and demand. I tried to get a new iphone when they first came out. There was a very long line and they ran out of iphones. There was plenty of demand, but no supply. Demand does not drive sales if there is no supply.

It doesn't take a doctor to count dead bodies or an economist to conclude heat stroke victims die from a lack of money to provide fans and/or electrical power. If you need those easily visible lines drawn then we may as well back up and start asking for dictionary definitions beginning with 'a', then moving on to two letters words. Or maybe you think every dime in America is so tied up with other life-saving tasks that none can be spared for a fan for Mrs. Mertz?

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You still have not shown that the greed of others led that person to be so impoverished that they died from lack of a fan. You have not proved it because you can not prove it because it is not true. It is rhetoric, and you've bought into it hook line and sinker. Who is greedy? And how did that person cause the other person to be poor?

Everything is owned by someone. So if you don't own it and you don't pay for it in some way then you're stealing it
- aka theft.
- Shooting deer out of season is illegal and so is shooting them without a tag. It's called pouching.
- You could always resort to prostitution but that's illegal everywhere but Nevada.
You seem to be suggesting criminal activity of all kinds. How interesting.

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Some way to pay for it.... don't you think there are ways for the unemployed to earn money? Temp jobs- maybe they have to downgrade and work at mcdonalds. Maybe the dog sit for neighbors or cut grass... quit making excuses. The bottom line is that because you don't have money doesn't mean you CANT have it. It is there.

BTW it is deer season. No tags required in most states. You can kill up to 12 per season in georgia. Enough to eat off of for a whole year. And if you hunt with a bow, you can take another 12.

I'm not suggesting illegal activity. I'm suggesting work. Hustle. Feed your family.

"Rising to a higher social or economic position" doesn't mean making $5k more this year than last year.

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I didn't say that was the case. I started with nothing and now I have something. That is upward mobility.

kamikaze483 said:

If no one wants or needs the product, it doesn't matter how much money they have- because they aren't going to buy it. Without supply, demand can not be met. As I said, it is a balance between supply and demand. I tried to get a new iphone when they first came out. There was a very long line and they ran out of iphones. There was plenty of demand, but no supply. Demand does not drive sales if there is no supply.

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But the company doesn't loose money by not building more product. Apple didn't loose money because of the shortage of iPhones. But if Apple had build all those iPhones and no one bought them it would have lost a ton of money.