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Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes in the United States?

Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share?

  • Yes

    Votes: 58 48.3%
  • No

    Votes: 62 51.7%

  • Total voters
    120
How is a gift or an inheritance not a transaction. It's still money or goods changing hands. Why should money I worked hard to earn, adding some benefit to society, be taxed, while money I did absolutely nothing to earn, adding no benefit to society, be tax free.
why should the government get two cracks at money when there was no exchange in value. Gifts should never be taxed, they are not income and they are not an exchange for value.

the people who whine about inheritances are generally those who are mad they didn't get one

why do you spend so much time justifying the government taking yet more money from other people

do you honestly believe that the government actually needs more money?

and the only people raped by the inheritance taxes are those who are the top bracket payers anyway. the vast majority of people don't pay it-why should only a small group get hit with this-the group that pays more taxes than most of the rest of the country combined?

inheritance, estate, or death taxes are nothing more than a surcharge on the top tax payers
 
You miss some key distinctions. What you spend is gone (consumed), yes it may be recirculated, but you have neither interest in, nor control over, how. What you invest is still yours (hard earned income), but you have placed it at risk, to be used by others with a CHANCE that you will benefit, yet your have no such guarantee it will benefit you, like eating that hot dog or driving that car, that you could have done instead. Investment helps us ALL, not just the guy taking the risk, as it grows the economy, creates jobs and thus should be encouraged, over simple personal consumption. Offering a reward for successful private investment, by taxing that "income" at a lower rate, is a common good, especially considering that, if money is lost, then you get no tax break for that "bad" investment.

That's like saying that gambling winnings shouldn't be taxed because there was risk involved. You choose to invest, you choose to accept the risk. No one is forced to do it. It's not such an issue when you have someone with a normal job who has a 401k or some investments on the side. It comes in when you have people making millions of dollars doing nothing but investing, and paying very little taxes on it. And while I agree that investing is good for the country as a whole, having a lower tax rate on investment income than earned income is basically saying that investing is more beneficial to the country than the people that actually perform labor at the companies that others are investing in. And that's clearly not true. A company could have all the money in the world invested in it, but without any employees to do the actual work, it's completely worthless to the country as a whole.

And I do think it's a problem that investment losses can't be counted as negative income. They absolutely should be able to.
 
\you labor under the delusion that the tax rate when every tax is combined -state and federal local and municipal should be strictly progressive. that is the only way you can utter such idiocy.

TD, why would I care about the opinion of somebody like you as to whether taxation should be progressive or regressive? Obviously your views on stuff like that are absurd. But the fact remains, you are being dishonest when you continually try to portray it as though we have a steeply progressive system. It is, as you well know. mildly progressive, going from 20% to 31% as you get higher in income amongst people who work, and then steeply regressive above that. I don't care what you think about that situation, just quit lying about the facts.
 
TD, why would I care about the opinion of somebody like you as to whether taxation should be progressive or regressive? Obviously your views on stuff like that are absurd. But the fact remains, you are being dishonest when you continually try to portray it as though we have a steeply progressive system. It is, as you well know. mildly progressive, going from 20% to 31% as you get higher in income amongst people who work, and then steeply regressive above that. I don't care what you think about that situation, just quit lying about the facts.

I love the sanctimonious attitude that the far left often spews on topics like this

you assume that a progressive system is the only one that is proper and dismiss as benighted, anyone who doesn't buy into your parasitic schemes. You are being dishonest when you lump stuff like sales tax, gasoline tax, FICA and other taxes to create an OVERALL tax rate and then claim it is not progressive enough

the only taxes that should be viewed and evaluated for the progressive rate are those that were intended to be progressive. YOu can not honestly whine the the taxes on the rich are not progressive enough when many of the taxes you consider were never intended to be progressive.

And why should someone who is wealthy pay a higher percentage than someone who is not?
 
the only taxes that should be viewed and evaluated for the progressive rate are those that were intended to be progressive.

WTF is the matter with you? You just said it again barely an hour after I called you out for saying exactly that same thing. Again, that makes zero sense. Obviously. Every progressive tax is progressive. You can't tell any more about our society's tax system by just looking at progressive taxes than you can tell what color the marbles are in a jar by only looking at the blue ones. What you're saying is just breathtakingly stupid. I already pointed that out very clearly. You need to engage your brain man. Stop just repeating yourself and pretending nobody is responding to what you're saying. If you can't defend something, you need to drop it. Do you understand?
 
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WTF is the matter with you? Just just said it again barely an hour after I called you out for saying exactly that same thing. Again, that makes zero sense. Obviously. Every progressive tax is progressive. You can't tell any more about our society's tax system by just looking at progressive taxes than you can tell what color the marbles are in a jar by only looking at the blue ones. What you're saying is just breathtakingly stupid. I already pointed that out very clearly. You need to engage your brain man. Stop just repeating yourself and pretending nobody is responding to what you're saying. If you can't defend something, you need to drop it. Do you understand?

You spew psychobabbling leftwing drivel and you claim others are stupid? If you are so smart why are you so dependent on the government? The fact is, the rich pay the highest FIT rates

end of story
 
You spew psychobabbling leftwing drivel and you claim others are stupid? If you are so smart why are you so dependent on the government? The fact is, the rich pay the highest FIT rates

end of story

If debating politics is too hard for you, why don't you find another hobby?
 
If debating politics is too hard for you, why don't you find another hobby?


actually its rather easy when dealing with the tax the rich crowd

now tell us why the rich should pay a higher percentage than others as well as paying more actual dollars.

and your idiotic signature is just that-it is a compilation of all taxes which is silly and its a lie because people living in poverty are often paying sales taxes with MONEY given to them by the government meaning its us taxpayers who are paying the poor's tax bill
 
why should the government get two cracks at money when there was no exchange in value. Gifts should never be taxed, they are not income and they are not an exchange for value.

Well if we're going to go that route, why should the government get two cracks at money where there was an exchange in value? If we start going down that road, then pretty soon there will be no taxes at all, which great as that would be, is obviously impossible. The federal government taxes income. I want them to tax it all equally, regardless of the source.

the people who whine about inheritances are generally those who are mad they didn't get one

That may apply to some. It doesn't apply to me. My wife and I received a fairly decent sized inheritance last year.

why do you spend so much time justifying the government taking yet more money from other people

I'm not trying to justify the government taking more money from people. At least not in the sense that I think you're talking about, i.e. increasing total tax revenue as a whole. If you're simply asking why I'm suggesting a plan that results in some people paying more and others paying less than in the current system, then that's just a stupid question. Any plan that changes anything about the tax code would result in some paying more and some paying less.

do you honestly believe that the government actually needs more money?

For the time being, yes, probably. If we're going to get the debt paid off any time soon then more tax revenue is probably going to be part of it. I'm absolutely in favor of cutting government spending too though. And in the long term, once the debt is paid down to a much more reasonable number, then I do think that government spending and revenue could go down somewhat.

But I'm not suggesting just taxing capital gains and inheritance at the same rate as income and leaving it there. I'm suggesting that as part of restructuring the tax system as a whole. A restructuring that would be revenue neutral. So while tax rates on capital gains and inheritance would go up, income tax rates would drop for many to compensate (though they'd go up a little for some of the lower-income people most likely).

and the only people raped by the inheritance taxes are those who are the top bracket payers anyway. the vast majority of people don't pay it-why should only a small group get hit with this-the group that pays more taxes than most of the rest of the country combined?

Well for one, because the only people receiving large amounts of cash in an inheritance are the very wealthy. A lot of people that receive inheritances DO pay taxes on at least part of it, even if it isn't strictly called an 'inheritance tax'. For example, a lot of what my wife and I inherited was proceeds on the sale of her parents' home, and her mother's IRA. We paid capital gains tax on the money from selling the house, and because we chose not to roll over the IRA and instead use it to pay off our student loan debt, we paid income tax on that. So although the amount wasn't enough to pay either state or federal inheritance tax on, we did indeed end up paying a decent chunk of money in taxes on the inheritance we received.

inheritance, estate, or death taxes are nothing more than a surcharge on the top tax payers

A problem which my suggestion would solve, by requiring nearly everyone who inherited money to pay income tax on it.
 
Apparently the point I was making passed you all by. The point being the "rich" pay very little in the way of income tax because they own income producing assets, like businesses. The tax rate the rich pay is meaningless because they CONTROL how much tax they pay, because they pay that tax on what is LEFT. Employees have to pay the tax FIRST. Read my previous posts you'll understand. If you dont ask. I am in the big brackets so I know a thing or three.
 
I oppose taxes on income for several reasons. A consumption tax would capture lots of illegal income, it would prevent the ability of the many to raise the rates on the few and it would not punish those who save and are frugal. Paying income taxes on inheritances is disgusting. Death should not be a taxable event and wealth within a family should not be taxed again.

Do you want to take a crack at why the rich should pay a higher percentage?
 
Apparently the point I was making passed you all by. The point being the "rich" pay very little in the way of income tax because they own income producing assets, like businesses. The tax rate the rich pay is meaningless because they CONTROL how much tax they pay, because they pay that tax on what is LEFT. Employees have to pay the tax FIRST. Read my previous posts you'll understand. If you dont ask. I am in the big brackets so I know a thing or three.

actually most of us in the top one percent have substantial salary income. Lawyers, doctors, accountants, athletes, fortune 500 managers, etc all are examples of those in the top one percent who aren't owning the businesses that make them rich
 
actually its rather easy when dealing with the tax the rich crowd

The whole "I could totally beat you guys in debates all the time, I just don't wanna" doesn't convince anybody I'm afraid TD.

now tell us why the rich should pay a higher percentage than others as well as paying more actual dollars.

How many times do you figure I've explained that to you already without you being able to come back with a counter argument? 100? 300?
 
The whole "I could totally beat you guys in debates all the time, I just don't wanna" doesn't convince anybody I'm afraid TD.



How many times do you figure I've explained that to you already without you being able to come back with a counter argument? 100? 300?

no matter what is said you will claim you won because you cannot fathom anyone disagreeing with a soak the rich tax scheme.

you have never made a good argument as to why a progressive tax is appropriate. it is based on your values not any evidence.

a flat tax would mean the rich pay more actual dollars, a consumption tax too but what these prevent is people like you jacking up the rates of a few to pander to the many

That is the counter argument. a progressive tax system caters to politicians to promise the many more and more services without the many having to pay more taxes (and thus less likely to vote vote the big spenders). That is the entire reason behind the progressive taxes

rewarding lots of voters while making only a small group of voters bear most of the costs

and what is the damage of that system other than the inherent unfairness of sticking the tax bill to those who don't drive the spending?

it causes massive government since most voters aren't aware of the costs
 
I oppose taxes on income for several reasons. A consumption tax would capture lots of illegal income, it would prevent the ability of the many to raise the rates on the few and it would not punish those who save and are frugal. Paying income taxes on inheritances is disgusting. Death should not be a taxable event and wealth within a family should not be taxed again.

The biggest problem with a consumption tax is that it disproportionately hits the lower and middle classes who spend a higher percentage of their money than the wealthy do. It essentially lets the wealthy choose how much tax to pay, because if they don't want to pay as much tax, they simply don't spend as much money, which they can afford to do without significantly affecting their standard of living.

Do you want to take a crack at why the rich should pay a higher percentage?

Are we talking about marginal tax rate, or effective tax rate here. If we're talking about marginal tax rate, then the wealthy shouldn't pay a higher percentage. If we're talking about effective tax rate, then it's for one very simple reason. Because the wealthy can afford to pay more without affecting their ability to provide themselves with the basic necessities of life.
 
They do not comprise a majority of the one percent. If you look at how their finances are structured you will find LLCs, Partnerships, and in my case C corps. ect.. All those vehicles allow you and they to SPEND the money BEFORE taxation. They are taxed only on profit. If they even have a profit. Thats my point. There are VERY few true employees in the one percent. They generally have CONTROL of how much tax they are going to pay, by how they structure their investment vehicles and businesses. If you look at doctors accountants ect. you find most in partnerships and or llc's. They are taxed in all of these vehicles on NET profit not the GROSS. Where as an employee the government gets first crack. The key is control or the lack thereoff.
 
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you have never made a good argument as to why a progressive tax is appropriate. it is based on your values not any evidence.

Of course I have. I've made dozens. How about this, see if you can list off just three of them so I know that even if you aren't understanding, at least you're listening.

That is the counter argument. a progressive tax system caters to politicians to promise the many more and more services without the many having to pay more taxes (and thus less likely to vote vote the big spenders). That is the entire reason behind the progressive taxes

Oops, you mistakenly assumed the tax system was progressive again didn't you. Aww shucks! And just a few posts after the most recent time that you admitted it wasn't. What do you think you can do better next time to avoid making that exact same embarrassing mistake the 2,538th time?
 
1) every consumption tax plan I have seen has some exemptions which I would support
but I don't really find it compelling to say that its wrong for the poor to pay more taxes given they demand more government. the rich still pay more actual tax dollars.

2) I completely and totally reject the from each according to their ability. UNDER any tax plan I have seen, the rich still pay more, but I oppose higher rates for the reason I explained above
 
In terms of fair share by percentage (without the tax cheats so many exploit) they pay more than their fair share. I feel we would be far better off with a flat tax rate and no deductions. Many of the wealthy would end up paying far more in taxes than they currently do, but would also pay the same percentage as anyone else, which is the ultimate fair in my book. IMO, the progressive tax system is one of the worst political ideas ever, and the exploitation of it, especially by the wealthy due to the infinite amount of deductions is seriously counterproductive.
 
Of course I have. I've made dozens. How about this, see if you can list off just three of them so I know that even if you aren't understanding, at least you're listening.



Oops, you mistakenly assumed the tax system was progressive again didn't you. Aww shucks! And just a few posts after the most recent time that you admitted it wasn't. What do you think you can do better next time to avoid making that exact same embarrassing mistake the 2,538th time?


If you are so much wiser than us who oppose progressive tax schemes why is it that people like you are so much more dependent on the government than people like me? In my view, being intelligent and well educated should make one more independent. So tell me teamosil, what exactly do you do for a living? Your total tax rate bit is a bit dishonest as has been proven. If someone pays state taxes with money taken from others and given to them by the government, its rather mendacious to claim that those people are actually paying taxes
 
In terms of fair share by percentage (without the tax cheats so many exploit) they pay more than their fair share. I feel we would be far better off with a flat tax rate and no deductions. Many of the wealthy would end up paying far more in taxes than they currently do, but would also pay the same percentage as anyone else, which is the ultimate fair in my book. IMO, the progressive tax system is one of the worst political ideas ever, and the exploitation of it, especially by the wealthy due to the infinite amount of deductions is seriously counterproductive.


However, even with all the deductions loopholes etc the top one percent (most of us don't have the sort of control that bill gates, george soros or warren buffett has to manipulate our income as they do) still pays almost 40% of the income tax

now if the top one percent-which makes 22% of the income-was paying less than 22% of the income taxes, all this talk of loopholes and deductions might have some actual merit
 
1) every consumption tax plan I have seen has some exemptions which I would support
but I don't really find it compelling to say that its wrong for the poor to pay more taxes given they demand more government. the rich still pay more actual tax dollars.

I don't really find it compelling to argue that the rich pay more actual tax dollars. $100,000 of tax is less of a burden to a man who makes $1,000,000 a year than $5,000 is to a man who makes $25,000 a year.

2) I completely and totally reject the from each according to their ability. UNDER any tax plan I have seen, the rich still pay more, but I oppose higher rates for the reason I explained above

You can reject it all you want, and it won't change a thing. You can't take money from people that don't have any to take.

Or do you really think that a family of four living on $25,000 a year can afford to pay 20% of that in taxes, just the same as someone making half a million a year?

You said you support a consumption tax with some deductions. What is so different between that and a flat percentage income tax with a single cost of living deduction?
 
I find it compelling that someone paying 100K a year in taxes is getting far less value for his tax payments than someone paying 1000 dollars a year in the same income taxes. I find it the attitude that ability to pay (which is so loaded a term that it is worthless) is the only factor that should be taken into account is pernicious because those who claim they don't have much ability to pay will demand more and more from the government while arguing others should pay the bill.

its giving the irresponsible credit cards and sending the bills to others
a consumption tax requires far less government involvement and control


if someone making 25K a year and still decides to have two kids, maybe they will be less likely to want a government that requires them to pay 20% of their income in taxes than the current system does where they can vote for big spenders who want people like me to pay more and more
 
I don't really find it compelling to argue that the rich pay more actual tax dollars. $100,000 of tax is less of a burden to a man who makes $1,000,000 a year than $5,000 is to a man who makes $25,000 a year.



You can reject it all you want, and it won't change a thing. You can't take money from people that don't have any to take.

Or do you really think that a family of four living on $25,000 a year can afford to pay 20% of that in taxes, just the same as someone making half a million a year?

You said you support a consumption tax with some deductions. What is so different between that and a flat percentage income tax with a single cost of living deduction?
Maybe it will motivate them to make some money and accumulate some wealth.:)
 
If you are so much wiser than us who oppose progressive tax schemes why is it that people like you are so much more dependent on the government than people like me? In my view, being intelligent and well educated should make one more independent. So tell me teamosil, what exactly do you do for a living?

More dependent on the government? What are you talking about kiddo? You're just babbling. You lose every single point and then just ramble off in another direction babbling random sentences. It's pathetic. Aren't you ashamed by how badly you lose every debate?

Your total tax rate bit is a bit dishonest as has been proven. If someone pays state taxes with money taken from others and given to them by the government, its rather mendacious to claim that those people are actually paying taxes

Kiddo, you seem to think that people in poverty just get all their money from the government, but obviously you understand that isn't true, right? Why do you keep posting things that you know are false? What is the matter with your brain?
 
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