For Veterans and Military personnel only.[W:651]

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Objective Voice said:

I know this poll is about veteran and military personnel's opinions on Pres. Obama's handling of military/veteran affairs and proposals/promises Mitt Romney has made pertaining to our military and national defense, but a few things posted on Mitt Romney's campaign webpage caught my attention the other day under "National Defense. Specifically:



Instead of pulling information from WhiteHouse.gov or even the DoD's website, I'll instead use a non-partisan source and let the charts and figures speak for themselves - data that completely contradicts Mitt Romney's claims of a aged post-WWII U.S. defense force still trapped in the age of prop planes and gravity bombs.

From Business Insider:




I can't post the charts and graphes here, but you can see them directly from the article or download the .pdf file copy of the article and review them for yourself. Clearly, defense spending hasn't taken a back seat under Pres. Obama as Mitt Romney and some Republicans would have one believe.

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The Pentagon's Biggest Threat In Years? Budget Cuts : NPR

American Military Commanders Warn of War if Budget Cuts Enacted

The Looming Military Budget Cuts Will Be A Disaster - Business Insider

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

I saw the SEC DEF on CSPAN testifying in front of the Senate begging them not to cut defense anymore....Hussein Obama wants to cut it 500 billion more over the 487 billion they have already cut......

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

I'm not saying that the fed shouldn't spend money in support of our military, quite the contrary. Mine was merely a counter-argument by Conservative Republicans who keep saying that the Obama Administration hasn't spent billions to modernize our military or support our troops. Those such argments clearly are false. But there's a finer point I think needs to be made and it should be viewed in the same vein as changing military philosophy as was done right after Vietnam.

After 'Nam, our military and political leaders determined that our combat soldiers needed to be "smarter". So, a larger push was made to recuite servicemen (and women) who either were high school grads or college students (i.e., ROTC Midshipmen or Military Academy Cadets). There were alot of other things that transpired from such changes all of which are outlined in great detail in the book, "Your Government Failed You," by Richard A. Clarke. But today, something else is starting to take form witinh our military make-up...an increased focus on "privatization". Notice what's happening in Iraq with the U.S. security force in place there? If you think this just started w/Obama, however, then you completely missed it when the GW Bush Administration used these same private security contractors to patrol the streets and protect officials in Iraq.

If you read both Business Insiders articles, you'll notice that one speaks of federal defense spending in relation to GDP (my linked article) and the other outlines concerns reductions in federal spending might have on our military's ability to deploy our forces abroad in times of world conflict (your article). But notice what the answer to this issue seems to be from your article?

Answer: Contractor security forces...privatizations of our military.

And whose brilliant idea was this? Clue: It didn't start with the Obama Administration, but he's certainly getting the blame for it.

The irony here is this: We've spent so much money trying to win the wars in Iraq and AfPak that military spending has taken up well over 40% of GDP, but when Republicans in Congress are confronted with this they quickly hide behind the Constitution, "provide for the common defense...provide for a Army and Navy". But few look at how much technology has allowed us to draw down our troop forces. No one seems to have a problem with this when the point is made that technological advances have also made employment in some portions of the private sector difficult, yet we all want a leaner, meaner military fighting force. How do we bridge that gap between spending trillions on military technology while doing everything we can to not place our combat forces in harm's way (needlessly I might add)? Again, some seem to think short of robotics (i.e., drones and the likes) privatizing our military is the answer to which your Business Insider article seems to argue for, not against. Hence, the reason to continue spending trillions on our national defense.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Objective Voice said:

I'm not saying that the fed shouldn't spend money in support of our military, quite the contrary. Mine was merely a counter-argument by Conservative Republicans who keep saying that the Obama Administration hasn't spent billions to modernize our military or support our troops. Those such argments clearly are false. But there's a finer point I think needs to be made and it should be viewed in the same vein as changing military philosophy as was done right after Vietnam.

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What has he modernized?

After 'Nam, our military and political leaders determined that our combat soldiers needed to be "smarter". So, a larger push was made to recuite servicemen (and women) who either were high school grads or college students (i.e., ROTC Midshipmen or Military Academy Cadets). There were alot of other things that transpired from such changes all of which are outlined in great detail in the book, "Your Government Failed You," by Richard A. Clarke. But today, something else is starting to take form witinh our military make-up...an increased focus on "privatization". Notice what's happening in Iraq with the U.S. security force in place there? If you think this just started w/Obama, however, then you completely missed it when the GW Bush Administration used these same private security contractors to patrol the streets and protect officials in Iraq.

Click to expand...

Private contractors have always been used in America at least as far back as the War of 1812.

If you read both Business Insiders articles, you'll notice that one speaks of federal defense spending in relation to GDP (my linked article) and the other outlines concerns reductions in federal spending might have on our military's ability to deploy our forces abroad in times of world conflict (your article). But notice what the answer to this issue seems to be from your article?

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While I beleive that we spend more than we should, we don't top the list of %GDP.

Answer: Contractor security forces...privatizations of our military.

And whose brilliant idea was this? Clue: It didn't start with the Obama Administration, but he's certainly getting the blame for it.

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Again, goes farther back than W. Much farther.

The irony here is this: We've spent so much money trying to win the wars in Iraq and AfPak that military spending has taken up well over 40% of GDP, but when Republicans in Congress are confronted with this they quickly hide behind the Constitution, "provide for the common defense...provide for a Army and Navy". But few look at how much technology has allowed us to draw down our troop forces. No one seems to have a problem with this when the point is made that technological advances have also made employment in some portions of the private sector difficult, yet we all want a leaner, meaner military fighting force. How do we bridge that gap between spending trillions on military technology while doing everything we can to not place our combat forces in harm's way (needlessly I might add)? Again, some seem to think short of robotics (i.e., drones and the likes) privatizing our military is the answer to which your Business Insider article seems to argue for, not against. Hence, the reason to continue spending trillions on our national defense.

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No, close to 40% of the budget, it's around 4.7% of GDP.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Objective Voice said:

Most vets will tell you that unless you move from active duty into some high profile government job, you'll never get rich while serving in the military. Of course, if you're lucky you can eek out a decent living...if you're lucky.

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You probably won't get rich, but you're paying the bills, its steady work, and you have medical/dental. Combat troops pay a lot more into it in blood, sweat, and tears. For some POG that never gets shot at and goes on one 7 month to a year field trip every 4 years, you can't beat it. There's A LOT of civilians that would take that deal any day of the week.

Objective Voice said:

Thanks for the info. But it doesn't negate the fact that Pres. Obama has made sure that our troops were outfitted with the best equipment as quickly as possible straight off the production line.

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I'd say it's more like he fell in on an already well oiled machine. I will give him credit for not getting in the way though. He can't seem to do even that with most things lol.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Put in Gary Johnson lol, im not voting for either of these 2... Now if Dr Paul had or does get the nomination, I could easily vote Republican.

Bush actually outfitted us, what was it called... RFI rapid fielding initiative, that was back in 04, we got the new ACHs and other junk. Also we slowly got up armor kits for our 113's and HMMWVs.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

As a vietnam vet with a disability, I can say that Bush did very little for the veteran in 8 years, certainly next to nothing compared to what Obama has done for us......

As an observer of waste by the military, and our congress, there are billions in wasted funds within the military. When congress forces the military to take weapons they DO NOT WANT just so some congressmen and women can fatten the payroll in their home districts, that is incredible waste.

As someone who has attended the funerals of veteran friends, I can say that we aren't doing our troops any favors by having a large occupying force in countries that hate us. We should be using more smart bombs and cruise missles, and less boots on the ground.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

UtahBill said:

As a vietnam vet with a disability, I can say that Bush did very little for the veteran in 8 years, certainly next to nothing compared to what Obama has done for us......

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you're unaware of the post 9/11 GI bill? Of course it doesn't apply to you, but it does apply to vets.

As someone who has attended the funerals of veteran friends, I can say that we aren't doing our troops any favors by having a large occupying force in countries that hate us. We should be using more smart bombs and cruise missles, and less boots on the ground.

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Like Germany and Japan?

edit: btw...there was no talk of upping retiree tricare costs nor was there widespread "close to retirement" admin seps under Bush....that can't be said for Obama.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

mac said:

you're unaware of the post 9/11 GI bill? Of course it doesn't apply to you, but it does apply to vets.


Like Germany and Japan?

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Germany and Japan are ancient history when it comes to modern warfare....we have the capability today to take out any middle eastern country by a few days of selective target elimination. We aren't going to win their hearts, might as well just kick ass and walk away.
GI Bill? good deal for the healthy vet, but poor compensation for the severly wounded who will likely never work again.....

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

UtahBill said:

Germany and Japan are ancient history when it comes to modern warfare....we have the capability today to take out any middle eastern country by a few days of selective target elimination. We aren't going to win their hearts, might as well just kick ass and walk away.

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not politically correct.

GI Bill? good deal for the healthy vet, but poor compensation for the severly wounded who will likely never work again.....

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What about the spouse or kid you can transfer the benefit too? Read up on it. It is by far the single best vet benefit ever enacted....under Bush.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

mac said:

not politically correct.



What about the spouse or kid you can transfer the benefit too? Read up on it. It is by far the single best vet benefit ever enacted....under Bush.

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I am aware of that....but I didn't say Bush did nothing, I said he did little in 8 years, compared to Obama....

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

UtahBill said:

I am aware of that....but I didn't say Bush did nothing, I said he did little in 8 years, compared to Obama....

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Can you name some things President Obama has done for us? I haven't seen you post that as of yet. Thanks.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

UtahBill said:

I am aware of that....but I didn't say Bush did nothing, I said he did little in 8 years, compared to Obama....

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And he did....?

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Obama appointed General Shinseki to be secretary of the VA, for starters....
the budget has been increased considerably, more people hired to deal with the massive influx of new claims coming in...
Shinseki also added 3 new diseases to the Agent Orange presumptive list..
also...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/30/veterans-salute-president-obama-on-funding-for-va/



Look up google, it's a search engine, type in the magic words, and learn for yourself.

I will be voting for Romney, tho, as I am not a single issue voter, and think that Mitt has a better chance at turning the economy around...

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

UtahBill said:

Look up google, it's a search engine, type in the magic words, and learn for yourself.

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I love the simple yet complex sarcasm of this statement. I was literally laughing out loud when I read it. Good stuff man. Kudos.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Catawba said:

It is absolutely true:

"In a new Pew Research Center report on war and sacrifice, half of post-9/11 veterans said the Afghanistan war has been worth fighting. Only 44% felt that way about Iraq, and one-third said both wars were worth the costs."
Survey: Veterans say Afghanistan, Iraq wars not worth it - CNN.com

Let's do the math there. If only 44% of post 9/11 Vets think Iraq was worth fighting, that means 56% think it wasn't worth fighting. Last time I checked, 56% is a majority.

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I don't think the question of how many think it was worth it is too meaningful, as if an opinion either way means much. Instead, I'd be interested in what makes it worth the effort?

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

UtahBill said:

I am aware of that....but I didn't say Bush did nothing, I said he did little in 8 years, compared to Obama....

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that is a matter of opinion.. and is not factual

appointing a secretary of the VA is not an accomplishment, it's a duty... yes, Obama appointed Shinseki ... Bush appointed Principi ( now deputy Secretary), Nicholson, Mansfield , and Peake.. big deal.
the new GI BIll... which was a huge change, was signed in by Bush..
Bush increased the VA budget more than Presidents Reagan, Bush sr, Clinton, and Obama... combined.
VA spending grew by 6 billion under Reagan, 3 billion under Bush Senior, 10 Billion Under Clinton, 15 billion under Obama.... and 40 billion under Dubya
Bush significantly increased funding, training, and resources for wounded vets... that is an indisputable fact.

to say Bush did "little" is simply false... even if it's a statement made in comparison to Obama.

there is a narrative pushed by Sen Webb which states VA spending under Obama is more than double than it was in 1980( even when adjusted for inflation).. and that is very true, it is more than double actually... however, what that narrative does not address is that the majority of those increases did not happen under Obama.. Obama's increases are substantial ,sure, ... lets not get carried away here.. Obama has done little in comparison to Bush.





as veteran myself, I won't ever turn away our vets in need... but these increases and entitlements ...well, they ain't free.. they are costly ( about 112 billion a year,)... we need to watch out for, and eliminate , waste and unnecessary expenditures in The VA as well as in any other department... and out brother veterans need to be held accountable as well... by that , I mean we need to look out for our brothers by by not taking benefits we do not need.(need as opposed to want or entitlement)
technically and legally speaking, I'm a disabled vet( which speaks to the absurdities of the qualifications )... I take no VA benefits, but I know quite a few disabled vets who are only disabled in the eyes of the law, not in reality, who do take benefits... to me, they are little more than thieves... taking benefits, and money, that can and should go to the deserving.

( i'm not saying you are not disabled, btw.. don't take this as an attack on you.. I don't know your situation)

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Thrilla said:

that is a matter of opinion.. and is not factual

appointing a secretary of the VA is not an accomplishment, it's a duty... yes, Obama appointed Shinseki ... Bush appointed Principi ( now deputy Secretary), Nicholson, Mansfield , and Peake.. big deal.
the new GI BIll... which was a huge change, was signed in by Bush..
Bush increased the VA budget more than Presidents Reagan, Bush sr, Clinton, and Obama... combined.
VA spending grew by 6 billion under Reagan, 3 billion under Bush Senior, 10 Billion Under Clinton, 15 billion under Obama.... and 40 billion under Dubya
Bush significantly increased funding, training, and resources for wounded vets... that is an indisputable fact.

to say Bush did "little" is simply false... even if it's a statement made in comparison to Obama.

there is a narrative pushed by Sen Webb which states VA spending under Obama is more than double than it was in 1980( even when adjusted for inflation).. and that is very true, it is more than double actually... however, what that narrative does not address is that the majority of those increases did not happen under Obama.. Obama's increases are substantial ,sure, ... lets not get carried away here.. Obama has done little in comparison to Bush.





as veteran myself, I won't ever turn away our vets in need... but these increases and entitlements ...well, they ain't free.. they are costly ( about 112 billion a year,)... we need to watch out for, and eliminate , waste and unnecessary expenditures in The VA as well as in any other department... and out brother veterans need to be held accountable as well... by that , I mean we need to look out for our brothers by by not taking benefits we do not need.(need as opposed to want or entitlement)
technically and legally speaking, I'm a disabled vet( which speaks to the absurdities of the qualifications )... I take no VA benefits, but I know quite a few disabled vets who are only disabled in the eyes of the law, not in reality, who do take benefits... to me, they are little more than thieves... taking benefits, and money, that can and should go to the deserving.

( i'm not saying you are not disabled, btw.. don't take this as an attack on you.. I don't know your situation)

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I see fraud and abuse and waste as well. got a younger sibling getting 50% for hearing loss, and his hearing is about as bad as mine, for which I get nothing. Difference is, he went in with bad hearing and it got a little worse. I went in with good hearing and over time it got bad. In conversation, in a quiet environment, nobody can tell that either of us have hearing issues, except for low volume high frequencie sounds.
But a bigger issue is, why didn't the govt account for future veterans needs when the wars were started, in advance, instead of playing catch up...
We can't just look at total VA spending alone, it has to be broken out....compensation for disabilities has to be looked at apart form GI Bill for education, for example.

Another sibling, older one, is retired air force, 20 years and our govt denied him medical care that was promised when he enlisted. He had heart issues and ended up fiing bankruptcy to pay for medical bills that the USAF and VA should have paid for. Congress was stiffing the retired veterans as well as the non-retired veterans.....Different times, different issues.....

I have stage 3 Parkinson's (agent orange exposure), and glad to have it instead of the many other more serious things that so many vets suffer from. Mangled bodies from stepping on mines, driving over IED's, at a very young age then suffering for many decades, those are far more serious and long term than PD which typically takes 20 years to kill..
OTOH, when I get to stage 5 PD, it won't be pretty. I will be housebound first, then bedridden and will need full time care. The lucky ones die of something else first, but my family tree shows only one thing, colon cancer, and not much of that, so it will be more likely the PD gets me. My issue started about age 55, wasn't properly diagnosed til age 62, but by that time my employer had dumped me for not being able to do my job anymore, at age 58. Balance issues and loss of manual dexterity were the early symptoms that made my job more difficult. The tremors didn't start til age 61. Good thing the wife had a good job, and our house was paid off....

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

mac said:

Not the point, the point is that you call anyone that disagrees with you "far right".

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Not at all, merely the ones that support far-right positions like Social Security and medicare are socialistic, climate change science is a conspiracy, and that Iraq was any kind of threat (other than their oil law) to the most powerful nation on the planet.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

mac said:

Cat, note the civil strife in the good ol USA....Civil strife is an indication that the people are standing up (and are able too). This never happened under the Saddam regime without a subsequent massacre. Furthermore, Democracy is infectious and is spreading throughout the middle-east.

Think about it.

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Where are the new democracies operating in the middle east that are not being propped up by the American taxpayers?

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

MarineTpartier said:

Uhhhhhh, yeah, looks like you did miss it. Maybe it's because you didn't even read the friggin article.
The New York protesters then streamed downtown, in an early evening march heading past the former Occupy Wall Street home, Zuccotti Park, to Bowling Green park near the southern tip of Manhattan. Occupy sent out a text message saying 30,000 people were in the streetsAt one point, the protest appeared to stretch about 15 city blocks.
Thousands marched throughout Oakland Tuesday

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Oh well, a text message from a protester. What more proof do you need?

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

mac said:

Enabled by US forces.....

:shock:

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He had the idea first, and then came to us. The argument here is whether we went to him. We did not. The idea was his and that was good fortune for us.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Catawba said:

Oh well, a text message from a protester. What more proof do you need?

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Oh well, conspiracy theories about war for oil. What more proof do you need?
The funny part is that if that text had said something like "The police are brutalizing us" you would have no issue with believing it.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

UtahBill said:

Obama appointed General Shinseki to be secretary of the VA, for starters....
the budget has been increased considerably, more people hired to deal with the massive influx of new claims coming in...
Shinseki also added 3 new diseases to the Agent Orange presumptive list..
also...
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04/30/veterans-salute-president-obama-on-funding-for-va/



Look up google, it's a search engine, type in the magic words, and learn for yourself.

I will be voting for Romney, tho, as I am not a single issue voter, and think that Mitt has a better chance at turning the economy around...

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It's not a matter of googling, it's a matter of understanding what it is that Pres. Obama did for vets that you think is so great.
There is no question that Pres. Bush has/had a great affinity for vets, so I wanted you to explain what was important to you. Here's a summary of Bush's contribution to veterans affairs:

*Dramatically Increased Funding To Support And Care For Those Who Have Served Our Nation

Increased funding for veterans' medical care by more than 115 percent since 2001.

FY 2009 funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) totals more than $97 billion, nearly double the level of funding when the President took office and the highest level of support for veterans in history.

Provided more than $6 billion to modernize and expand VA medical facilities and more than $1 billion over the past three years to support traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic stress disorder treatment and research.

Honored our veterans with a hallowed, final resting place by implementing and fully funding the largest expansion in the national cemetery system since the Civil War.

*Improved Care And Services For Wounded Warriors

Created the Commission on Care for America's Returning Wounded Warriors – co-chaired by former Senator Bob Dole and former Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala – to ensure that wounded service members and veterans receive quality care and services and can live lives of hope, promise, and dignity. Nearly all of the Commission's recommendations have already been implemented, such as:

Expanded training, screening, and staff resources to help service members and veterans suffering from mental health disorders.
Created a joint Recovery Coordinator Program for seriously injured service members.

Initiated a pilot program to replace the cumbersome system of two separate disability examinations with a single, comprehensive medical exam.
Established a Center of Excellence for Psychological Health and Traumatic Brain Injury and expanded VA's polytrauma system of care to 21 network sites and clinic support teams to provide state-of-the-art treatment to injured veterans at facilities closer to their homes.

*Ensured Those Who Have Served Our Country Receive The Benefits They Deserve

Called for and signed a GI Bill for the 21st century, which expanded education benefits for service members and veterans and made it easier for those who defend our Nation to transfer unused education benefits to their spouses or children.

Increased career counseling services for returning veterans, particularly those wounded in combat.

Signed legislation that increased from two to five years a combat veteran's eligibility to enroll for lifetime VA medical care and allowed family members of injured service members to take additional time away from their jobs to care for their loved ones.

Signed legislation to ensure military retirees with severe disabilities receive both their military retired pay and their VA disability compensation.
Helped more than 1.9 million veterans enroll in the VA health care system since 2001.

Reduced the average length of time to process a veteran's disability claim to under 180 days, down from 230 days when the President took office.

*Worked To Decrease The Number Of Homeless Veterans

Expanded Federal grants and worked extensively with faith-based and community organizations to help homeless veterans.
Cut the number of homeless veterans by nearly 40 percent from 2001 to 2007.

Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

mac said:

It's not a matter of googling, it's a matter of understanding what it is that Pres. Obama did for vets that you think is so great.
There is no question that Pres. Bush has/had a great affinity for vets, so I wanted you to explain what was important to you. Here's a summary of Bush's contribution to veterans affairs:

*Dramatically Increased Funding To Support And Care For Those Who Have Served Our Nation

Increased funding for veterans' medical care by more than 115 percent since 2001.

FY 2009 funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) totals more than $97 billion, nearly double the level of funding when the President took office and the highest level of support for veterans in history.

Provided more than $6 billion to modernize and expand VA medical facilities and more than $1 billion over the past three years to support traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic stress disorder treatment and research.

Honored our veterans with a hallowed, final resting place by implementing and fully funding the largest expansion in the national cemetery system since the Civil War.

*Improved Care And Services For Wounded Warriors

Created the Commission on Care for America's Returning Wounded Warriors – co-chaired by former Senator Bob Dole and former Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala – to ensure that wounded service members and veterans receive quality care and services and can live lives of hope, promise, and dignity. Nearly all of the Commission's recommendations have already been implemented, such as:

Expanded training, screening, and staff resources to help service members and veterans suffering from mental health disorders.
Created a joint Recovery Coordinator Program for seriously injured service members.

Initiated a pilot program to replace the cumbersome system of two separate disability examinations with a single, comprehensive medical exam.
Established a Center of Excellence for Psychological Health and Traumatic Brain Injury and expanded VA's polytrauma system of care to 21 network sites and clinic support teams to provide state-of-the-art treatment to injured veterans at facilities closer to their homes.

*Ensured Those Who Have Served Our Country Receive The Benefits They Deserve

Called for and signed a GI Bill for the 21st century, which expanded education benefits for service members and veterans and made it easier for those who defend our Nation to transfer unused education benefits to their spouses or children.

Increased career counseling services for returning veterans, particularly those wounded in combat.

Signed legislation that increased from two to five years a combat veteran's eligibility to enroll for lifetime VA medical care and allowed family members of injured service members to take additional time away from their jobs to care for their loved ones.

Signed legislation to ensure military retirees with severe disabilities receive both their military retired pay and their VA disability compensation.
Helped more than 1.9 million veterans enroll in the VA health care system since 2001.

Reduced the average length of time to process a veteran's disability claim to under 180 days, down from 230 days when the President took office.

*Worked To Decrease The Number Of Homeless Veterans

Expanded Federal grants and worked extensively with faith-based and community organizations to help homeless veterans.
Cut the number of homeless veterans by nearly 40 percent from 2001 to 2007.

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History - VA History - About VA
Department of Veterans Affairs Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/veterans_and_wounded_warriors_record_0.pdf