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For Veterans and Military personnel only.[W:651]

For Veterans and Military personnel only.


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Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Bull crap. My husband even told while he was out that some Navy jets provided air support for them in Iraq and Afghanistan. It wasn't a lot, but it did happen. Plus, you claimed we were flying you guys in. That is not true when it comes to most carriers. We never had marines aboard my carrier but we sure flew a lot of missions into both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sorry swabby but I've done multiple tours in both theaters and I've never spoken to any air from the Navy. It's been all Marine or Army, depending on the AO.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Sorry swabby but I've done multiple tours in both theaters and I've never spoken to any air from the Navy. It's been all Marine or Army, depending on the AO.

funniest thing I have ever seen: we maintained a squad at the provincial joint command center in basrah (HQ for all the branches of the iraqi military in the area and the police hq). all the company grade officers had to take turns doing 24 hour shifts there because our CO "wanted an officer there to represent him". very secure compound. 14 foot high concrete barriers all around the compound, 10 foot high hesco barriers surrounding the inner courtyard, etc.

one day this MRAP pulls into the compound and just sits there, no one is getting out. we get a call on the radio to open the inner gate and let them drive into the courtyard. so they pull in and out piles 4 marines in full battle rattle weapons at the ready like they just got hit by an IED and set up a "perimeter" at the OK signal this navy CPT gets out and they "escort" him into the building. we all just busted out laughing because most of my guys are in T-shirts, our weapons are in a rack under the tent, a couple of my guys have their shirts off tanning and this guy comes in like he is landing at normandy. same procedure on the way out. :lamo
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

You seen how much damage this incompetent boob did in 3 years.............Imagine what he could do in 8 years when he does not have to worry about being reelected....

Not near as bad as the Bush years. And I wouldn't say what you did about him. You're really over the top too often Navy.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Sorry swabby but I've done multiple tours in both theaters and I've never spoken to any air from the Navy. It's been all Marine or Army, depending on the AO.

And my husband did a tour in each theater while in, and he said that although it was rare for Navy to fly for them, they would rather have Navy than Army or AF support. The preferred is Marines though. Don't get me wrong, he said it was not often that Navy actually supported, particularly in Afghanistan, but it did happen.

And we were supporting something because I did one tour that had us flying for both OEF and OIF. You may not have seen them, but that doesn't mean we weren't helping. We certainly weren't sitting around, twiddling our thumbs.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Bull crap. My husband even told while he was out that some Navy jets provided air support for them in Iraq and Afghanistan. It wasn't a lot, but it did happen. Plus, you claimed we were flying you guys in. That is not true when it comes to most carriers. We never had marines aboard my carrier but we sure flew a lot of missions into both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I've seen alot of Marine, some Army helo's, and of course a bunch of Air Force Logistics - even some CIA ISR platforms came on-line for us a couple of times. But no Navy in-theater. The only time I saw Navy Air was when I was on the MEU popping in and out of Bahrain around the Gulf - and even then we brought our own air.

The Navy (and, to a lesser extent, the Air Force) haven't really gotten to play like the Army and Marines have over the last decade or so. That's why they are pushing the Air-Sea Battle concept - they want to be relevant and gain a protected piece of a shrinking DOD pie.

Mind you, I think the Navy is important - more important by far than the Air Force. Maintaining a large and capable Navy is more important than maintaining a large and capable Army. But the Navy guys getting combat time are your hospital corpsman out there on the Green side, not your rocket jocks who maybe nip the corner of "hostile" airspace where there is no IADS threat before heading back to hot chow in the officers mess and air-conditioned racks with a month of tax-free pay.
 
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Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

You might want to review how the Generals largely changed tactics without the President being fully aware. read The Gamble.

Sure. You read The Strongest Tribe. Given that you apparently do not understand the differences between "tactics" and "strategy", I'm thinking you meant the latter. Which is still immaterial to the point - President Bush was out to win the war, and President Obama is out to win reelection. That's why Bush made unpopular decisions that supported the war effort, while Obama made decisions that crippled the war effort in order to be popular.

The event that turend things around in Iraq was what the Iraqis did, not the surge. I know it is hard for you to wrap your mind around this, but the Awaking was the major event, and that was Iraqi born and bred. And it was Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno who largely help by changing the harsher tactics and got more intel with more reasonable approaches.

I think it's hilarious when you say crap like this. :D As though COIN was just about "sending more dudes". The Iraqi Awakening was part of the Surge, the turning of the populace is COIN. You are arguing that only one blade of scissors actually cuts the paper.

Oh, and we never utilized enhanced interrogation in Iraq in the first place. ;)

Obama was wrong in Afghanistan, but you fail to consider what he was told. The Generals said you could give us everythign we want, and we could still fail. Think about that for a minute, to waste that much, to have nothing that could be any way assured?

Either you are all in to win, or you leave. Obama chose neither, but to simply try to split the baby. But half measures are worse than no measures - and sending a bunch of guys to Afghanistan but then giving them an artificial pre-set withdrawal date ensures that there will be no second blade of the scissors. It ensures that every single Afghan on both sides knows that the Americans are leaving on a certain date, and all the Taliban have to do is wait until that date plus one hour.



"The Americans have all the watches, but we have all the time."

-Taliban IO message after President Obama's speech announcing the Surge and a Timeline

Aug 24, 2010 President Barack Obama's July 2011 date to start withdrawing troops from Afghanistan has given a morale boost to Taliban insurgents, who believe they can wait out NATO forces, the top U.S. Marine said on Tuesday.

..."In some ways, we think right now it is probably giving our enemy sustenance," Conway, the Marine Corps' commandant, said of the July 2011 deadline.

"In fact we've intercepted communications that say, 'Hey, you know, we only need to hold out for so long.'"

Supporters of Obama's July 2011 date to start withdrawing forces from Afghanistan, conditions permitting, say it conveys a needed sense of urgency to Kabul. Afghans must quickly ramp up the size of their security forces for a gradual handover.

But critics say the strategy backfired, sending a signal to the Taliban that the United States was preparing to wind down the war while setting unrealistic expectations among Americans about the pace of progress in Afghanistan.

Conway, quoting one of his own commanders, told reporters: "We can either lose fast or win slow."...

General Douglas MacArthur said:
"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it"
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Except he never sent the troops that the CDRS in the field wanted for the surge.........That is why we are having such a hard time there................

He sent an additional 30,000 troops into Afghanistan.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Oh, so he's the least warmongering I see. So tell me, how many American citizens has Romney killed with drone strikes? How many bombs did he order dropped over Libya? How many troops did he send to Afghanistan?
You can go ahead and come back with "well.....he said he would" and I'll raise you some hope and change that never happened.

Romney has publicly stated that the president should not have withdrawn the troops from Iraq, and that he pledged to increase military spending. He has denounced the President for weakness in dealing with Russia, America's "number one geopolitical foe". On Afghanistan, he has accused the president of giving in to the Taliban by issuing a timetable for troop withdrawal. Romney wants the US to get tougher with Iran.

Thanks, but no thanks!

Kinda like these figures from Libya.
According to the Libyan Health office, the airstrikes killed 1,108 civilians and wounded 4,500 by July 13
Casualties of the Libyan civil war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Compare that to the civilian deaths in the almost-decade long GOP war in Iraq on behalf of big oil.
 
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Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

And my husband did a tour in each theater while in, and he said that although it was rare for Navy to fly for them, they would rather have Navy than Army or AF support. The preferred is Marines though. Don't get me wrong, he said it was not often that Navy actually supported, particularly in Afghanistan, but it did happen.

And we were supporting something because I did one tour that had us flying for both OEF and OIF. You may not have seen them, but that doesn't mean we weren't helping. We certainly weren't sitting around, twiddling our thumbs.

I know its subective but I've always had better experience with Army rotary rather than Marine. However, Marine fixed wing is better than anyones bar none. It's weird how that works.
I just don't see what support the Navy would have flown from a carrier. I do know the Navy was heavily involved during the invasion of Iraq but that was when we were fighting in Basra. However, they especially haven't been involved in OEF. That's why our guys had to secure Bagram so we could have air in theater.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Romney has publicly stated that the president should not have withdrawn the troops from Iraq, and that he pledged to increase military spending. He has denounced the President for weakness in dealing with Russia, America's "number one geopolitical foe". On Afghanistan, he has accused the president of giving in to the Taliban by issuing a timetable for troop withdrawal. Romney wants the US to get tougher with Iran.
Neither because both are warmongers that will send me to fight another useless war...........Until then, Ron Paul's getting a write in vote from me.
If he is not reelected, do you really believe Romney will honor that? I don't. I think he'll extend it indefinitely.
Both statements above show that I am not a supporter of Romney. I don't know why you feel the need to continue to bring him up in our discussion of your hypocrisy. Again, you are no longer a viable anti-war voice on this website because you plan to vote for a militant liberal. Simple as that.
Compare that to the civilian deaths in the almost-decade long GOP war in Iraq on behalf of big oil.
GOP WAR?! LOL!!! While President Bush did instigate the Iraq war, he certainly had bipartisan help to include your bestest buddy. Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that your aforementioned bestest buddy, that's President Obama btw, has doubled down in Afghanistan.
Obama defends votes in favor of Iraq funding - The Boston Globe
The Democrats' Support for Bush's War | FPIF
House Democrats Look To Fund War Through 2009 | Common Dreams
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

He sent an additional 30,000 troops into Afghanistan.

After he was told that 40,000 was the minimum necessary to win. Obama tried to split the baby to make the best political decision, either unknowing or uncaring that that is the worst possible military decision.
 
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Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.


"Winning" is a very tricky term in wars such as these.

I'd like to know exactly what we're "Winning" over there, because right now it seems like we're pouring treasure and blood into a bottomless pit/
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

"Winning" is a very tricky term in wars such as these.

I'd like to know exactly what we're "Winning" over there, because right now it seems like we're pouring treasure and blood into a bottomless pit/

Check out Garmsir these days. We just had a detachment get back from there - 7 months in former Bad Guy Land without a hostile shot fired. In the areas where Marines surged into the South and have been able to actually put COIN into place, it's working. It's just that our resources and available time are probably insufficient for the job at hand. If you want to inkblot, you have to let the ink spread.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Check out Garmsir these days. We just had a detachment get back from there - 7 months in former Bad Guy Land without a hostile shot fired. In the areas where Marines surged into the South and have been able to actually put COIN into place, it's working. It's just that our resources and available time are probably insufficient for the job at hand. If you want to inkblot, you have to let the ink spread.

For how long?

It's been 10 years, how much more blood and treasure do we squander?

A fully fledged functioning, stable democracy takes generations to solidify under good circumstances, let alone one with an islamist insurgency hell bent on returning it to the stone age.

If you define winning as areas being safe enough to put money into to build Afghanistan up using our treasure, rather than spending it at home where it belongs than I don't really know what to say.

I understand the argument that failed countries allow terrorists safe havens, but than we should be in Somalia as well. I thought we went there to punish the perpetrators of 9/11, not build a nation.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

After he was told that 40,000 was the minimum necessary to win. Obama tried to split the baby to make the best political decision, either unknowing or uncaring that that is the worst possible military decision.

I agree. However, Old Navy there was saying he didn't send any, which is false.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

For how long?

Well that's sort of the trick - if you put an artificial timeline on it, you kill it. You can win quicker if you demonstrate that you are willing to stay longer. Most Iraqi's expected us to pull out of Iraq after 05-06. When Bush instead announced the Surge, it told the Iraqi tribal leadership afraid of AQI that they had a potential ally and protector, and told AQI that they weren't going to be able to simply count down the months to victory, and may want to start thinking about Plan B) going back home. The following turn-around was amazing. In about a 4-month period I watched Fallujah go from being the Wild West to being Home on the Prairie.

It's been 10 years, how much more blood and treasure do we squander?

We've had COIN in place for about 2 and a half years, not 10 - and the troops that were sent in were explicitly too few to fully accomplish the mission, explicitly not given enough time to do so, and had their efforts implicitly hobbled by the Presidents' political needs. Given those restraints, the success that has been achieved in the areas they went into is nothing short of amazing.

A fully fledged functioning, stable democracy takes generations to solidify under good circumstances, let alone one with an islamist insurgency hell bent on returning it to the stone age.

:shrug: Depends on what you mean by functioning stable democracy, I suppose. The goal in Afghanistan is a non-extremist, moderately representative, least corrupt possible government capable of defending itself against the Taliban, AQ, and associated networks such as the Haqanni. If you want a Parliament and modern infrastructure in the sense that India has these things, that's going to take a few more decades. Like 15 or so.

If you define winning as areas being safe enough to put money into to build Afghanistan up using our treasure, rather than spending it at home where it belongs than I don't really know what to say.

I understand the argument that failed countries allow terrorists safe havens, but than we should be in Somalia as well. I thought we went there to punish the perpetrators of 9/11, not build a nation.

What happened in the 1980's after the USSR withdrew and we just left that area of the world to it's own devices? That turn out well for us? If we'd moved in, bombed the crap out of the Taliban, and then moved out, what do you think would have happened?

The Taliban and AQ would be back in power today, with Pakistans' assistance. And we would be right back where we started, but with a few lives and a lot of money wasted.

COIN sucks. But it works.
 
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Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

I do not like liberal/progressives like Obama one bit.

But AIPAC control our politicians on behalf of Israel.

And we will never be a Free country again until we disassociate America from that rogue state.

Obama stood up to What-a-yahoo a few months ago.

If the President doesn't have to worry about reelection.

My hope is he will put Israel in it's place for the good of our nation and people.

For the good of our nation and people? what nation are you talking about? surely not the USA. First thing we should do is stop bribing Arab leaders to "like" us...foreign aid to arab countries is just pouring money down a rat hole...
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Israel is Not our 51st state and the Constitution does not say that we are to defend another nation.

It is not anti-semitic to distance our nation from Israel.

Just common sense to put America first.

neither is Saudi Arabia, the country we should have attacked after 9/11.....
yes, put America first, and Arab contries last...
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Hesent about half of what they needed............I been meaning to ask you, did you send back the money you made in the last 10 years from the Bush Tax cuts..

sort of....every time I buy gasoline....
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Sure. You read The Strongest Tribe. Given that you apparently do not understand the differences between "tactics" and "strategy", I'm thinking you meant the latter. Which is still immaterial to the point - President Bush was out to win the war, and President Obama is out to win reelection. That's why Bush made unpopular decisions that supported the war effort, while Obama made decisions that crippled the war effort in order to be popular.



I think it's hilarious when you say crap like this. :D As though COIN was just about "sending more dudes". The Iraqi Awakening was part of the Surge, the turning of the populace is COIN. You are arguing that only one blade of scissors actually cuts the paper.

Oh, and we never utilized enhanced interrogation in Iraq in the first place. ;)



Either you are all in to win, or you leave. Obama chose neither, but to simply try to split the baby. But half measures are worse than no measures - and sending a bunch of guys to Afghanistan but then giving them an artificial pre-set withdrawal date ensures that there will be no second blade of the scissors. It ensures that every single Afghan on both sides knows that the Americans are leaving on a certain date, and all the Taliban have to do is wait until that date plus one hour.

We've gone down this path before CP. For the Awaking to be part of the surge, it would have ahd to be our idea. It wasn't. It was the Iraqis idea. You just have this habit of thinking everything that happens good had to be our idea. But, facts are pesky things. Now Lt. Gen. Odierno was smart enough to go with it, and that's a good thing. But stop trying to take credit where credit isn't due.

And btw, whether Obama or anyone announces a leave time, they still have all the time in the world. What that sentence means is they don't give a **** how long we stay. Move in. They aren't going anywhere.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

I know its subective but I've always had better experience with Army rotary rather than Marine. However, Marine fixed wing is better than anyones bar none. It's weird how that works.
I just don't see what support the Navy would have flown from a carrier. I do know the Navy was heavily involved during the invasion of Iraq but that was when we were fighting in Basra. However, they especially haven't been involved in OEF. That's why our guys had to secure Bagram so we could have air in theater.

We did something for OEF, what, I don't know. But we were in the "area" (yes, I know its landlocked) and got the ribbon for the operation. Maybe we were guarding something or keeping watch or doing recon, I wasn't exactly privy to that info, but I know we weren't just site seeing (not exactly a lot to see from the carrier out at sea).

Plus, we send guys in IA to help Army, at least. (Don't think we do anything for you guys, unless it is truck maintenance or customs duty.) And, unlike most of the Marines and Army, we have been actually in the Gulf since the first Gulf War.

Yes, we don't do the actual land fighting (for the most part), but that isn't part of our job. And it also isn't just to be your taxi cab. Most of you guys get places by plane or perhaps our smaller ships, definitely not the aircraft carriers or their battle groups. And subs are a whole different business. Most of the Navy doesn't know what our subs do. Most of the guys on the subs don't even know where they are or what they are doing. Doesn't mean they are doing nothing.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Both statements above show that I am not a supporter of Romney. I don't know why you feel the need to continue to bring him up in our discussion of your hypocrisy. Again, you are no longer a viable anti-war voice on this website because you plan to vote for a militant liberal. Simple as that.

I bring Romney up to show why I am voting for the better of the two candidates.

GOP WAR?!

Yep, a majority of Democrats voted against force in Iraq vs all but 7 of the Republicans that voted for force in Iraq.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

I bring Romney up to show why I am voting for the better of the two candidates.
You do know that I won't let you avoid the fact that you claim to be an anti-war crusader yet vote for a warmonger right? It's not going to happen. One of two things will need to happen for me to stop doing that. A) Admit you are a hypocrite B) Admit you're not as anti-war as you claim.

Yep, a majority of Democrats voted against force in Iraq vs all but 7 of the Republicans that voted for force in Iraq.
Democrats repeatedly voted for the funding of the Iraq War. Simple as that. You can act like this was a partisan issue all you want. It wasn't.
 
Re: For Veterans and Military personnel only.

Hesent about half of what they needed...........
You do realize he was givin 4 different options from various high ranking military officials right?
Also how did sending those "extra needed troops" to Vietnam work out for us?

.I been meaning to ask you, did you send back the money you made in the last 10 years from the Bush Tax cuts..
No why would I?
Obama has staed over and over again he wants to continue the bush tax cuts for working families (middle class, and lower class).
 
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