Taser Use

Ikari · May 25, 2012

lpast said:
Thats not true oscar ikari made that statment connery made no such statement...Ikari said my saying you cant rely on the police doesnt mean they would let anyone die....

lpast said:
Oscar you came in way late into this thread...the exchange between ikari and connery started before you got in it....

Connery said:
This does not substantiate where the police allowed you to die as your original position clearly states, "Don't rely on them to save your life..."

Oh brother...:no:

You were saying lpast?

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Ikari said:
You were saying lpast?

And there you have it. Gee I love it when I'm proven right. :lamo

lpast · May 25, 2012

Ikari said:
You were saying lpast?

Ok..I didnt see that..but did you go back further and see if that was a response to what ikari had said...

lpast · May 25, 2012

OscarB63 said:
And there you have it. Gee I love it when I'm proven right. :lamo

hey I have no qualms admitting you were right buddy...and I have no problem admitting when Im wrong...but make sure you have the whole story...one post does not tell the tale..

Im not running away...I have a wife im very much afraid of breathing fire on the back of my neck...I shall obey...see ya later lol

Ikari · May 25, 2012

lpast said:
Ok..I didnt see that..but did you go back further and see if that was a response to what ikari had said...

He was responding to what I had written earlier since he quoted the beginning part of a sentence I wrote. I certainly did say that you shouldn't rely on the police to save your life, that you are best to rely on yourself. It's a true statement. Not one that implies that cops will let you die, like Connery was trying to make it seem like. But rather just a statement of fact given the time delay between information transfer and transportation time to site. He also started in with the "what personal experience" mantra, but that is entirely besides the point as it has nothing to do with the overall analysis of the system.

Connery · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
I am asking for your actual experience not the various hypothetical situations you pose as answers. Obviously you choose not to respond to the original question. As such you have provided the answer by your conduct and that answer is NO.

....and now you suggest I am gay because I sing...:shock: I also play the flute and several other instruments....:roll:

OscarB63 said:
Your question was irrelevant to the point being made

You are right, he probably would have just said "oops, my bad" and left so that I could give his description to the cops. :roll:

From what I saw the comment that started this was him saying "you can't rely on the cops to save your life". You countered with a strawman comment twisting his point into "the police will let you die". That is not what he said.

If you have some other point please restate it. I am not going back to dig rhrough pages of comments to find it.

Otherwise you are just playing a silly game of "gothca"

Connery said:
This does not substantiate where the police allowed you to die as your original position clearly states, "Don't rely on them to save your life..."

Oh brother...:no:

Ikari said:
You were saying lpast?

OscarB63 said:
And there you have it. Gee I love it when I'm proven right. :lamo

Gentlemen you misquoted me and taken my statement out of context. Try again from the beginning.

My original question:

Connery said:
Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life.

Ikari · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
Gentlemen you misquoted me and taken my statement out of context. Try again from the beginning.

My original question:

Nothing was taken out of context. You tried to say that I was claiming cops would let people die. Additionally, you have been continually trying to use this "personal experience" crap to diminish the ultimate premise that one is better off relying on themselves to protect themselves than they are to rely on the police. Your addition, in an attempt to diminish effect, is deflection and is utterly besides the point as the personal experience you keep claiming is not necessary for analysis of the entire system.

Connery · May 25, 2012

Ikari said:
Nothing was taken out of context. You tried to say that I was claiming cops would let people die. Additionally, you have been continually trying to use this "personal experience" crap to diminish the ultimate premise that one is better off relying on themselves to protect themselves than they are to rely on the police. Your addition, in an attempt to diminish effect, is deflection and is utterly besides the point as the personal experience you keep claiming is not necessary for analysis of the entire system.

No I never veered from the original question regarding the issue and the answer was NO. End of issue

The offer still stands for Danny Boy...:lol:

Ikari · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
No I never veered from the original question regarding the issue and the answer was NO. End of issue

The offer still stands for Danny Boy...:lol:

The initial statement had nothing to do with the deflect question you tried to pose. In the end, you constructed nothing but dishonest argument in order to dismiss a point I made by somehow claiming that lack of "personal" evidence would mean my statement had no proper basis.

Connery · May 25, 2012

Ikari said:
The initial statement had nothing to do with the deflect question you tried to pose. In the end, you constructed nothing but dishonest argument in order to dismiss a point I made by somehow claiming that lack of "personal" evidence would mean my statement had no proper basis.

I asked a direct question to which there was only one answer, based upon your personal experience. If you did not want to answer the question you had several options: you could have ignored me, asked me to clarify, ask me to rephrase etc. What you chose to do was go off into many different areas for which I had no interest in joining you.

Again the question:

Connery said:
Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life.

Ikari · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
I asked a direct question to which there was only one answer, based upon your personal experience. If you did not want to answer the question you had several options: you could have ignored me, asked me to clarify, ask me to rephrase etc. What you chose to do was go off into many different areas for which I had no interest in joining you.

Again the question:

Your question was answered several times, if you're not smart enough to read the posts and understand them I can do no more for you. The point is you made that question in response to my statement (as such, it's not an "original", but a response) in order to say "you don't have personal experience, you don't have a proper basis for an argument". But that's completely besides the point in total. It doesn't take personal experience in this case to analyse the whole of the system.

Spartacus FPV · May 25, 2012

I'm sympathetic to civil disobedience, and of course abhor the use of a taser on a non-violent and pregnant woman.

However, no one is above the law and her pregnancy changes nothing. All it does is break our hearts a little and demonize the police, and I know she won the case, but TBH would we even be talking about this person if she was not pregnant, or female?

You should behave in a manner that if everyone did, everything would work out. Last I checked pregnancy gets your ALOT of consideration in America, but not special treatment under the law. I cant get pregnant, so I'll be damned if I'll support a person who thinks their condition grants them rights that are denied to me. I'd love to be able to tell all traffic police to piss off, but since society wouldn't work out so well if everyone did so.. Ignorance of the law, being female, or being pregnant is no excuse for noncompliance.

I don't think they should have used a taser, but I also don't know how they should have proceeded. Law enforcement is a difficult and thankless job that, much like the military, you hear more about their mistakes than their positive encounters.

Connery · May 25, 2012

Ikari said:
It doesn't take personal experience in this case to analyse the whole of the system.

I never said it did. I simply asked you about your personal experience...:lol:

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
Gentlemen you misquoted me and taken my statement out of context. Try again from the beginning.

My original question:

you are obvioously confused. some how you misunderstand.

you can't rely on them =/= they allow you to die

YOU are the one who added in the "police allowed you to die". Ikari NEVER said that and his original comment did NOT imply that.

one more try and I'll go slow.

you cannot rely on the police to save your life in a crisis because you cannot count on a police officer being close enough to you to get there in time to prevent your death.

I already gave you an example from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE where I, as a military police officer, responded to a 911 call and even though I got to the residence in under 3 minutes, the victim was already dead by the time I arrived.

Does that mean I allowed her to die?

only an idiot would miscontrue "you can't rely on them" to mean "they will allow you to die"

simple physics and the limited number of police GUARANTEES that a police officer cannot be in all places at all times. nor can you count on a patrol being near you when you become a victim of violent crime.

LaMidRighter · May 25, 2012

Lachean said:
I'm sympathetic to civil disobedience, and of course abhor the use of a taser on a non-violent and pregnant woman.

However, no one is above the law and her pregnancy changes nothing. All it does is break our hearts a little and demonize the police, and I know she won the case, but TBH would we even be talking about this person if she was not pregnant, or female?

You should behave in a manner that if everyone did, everything would work out. Last I checked pregnancy gets your ALOT of consideration in America, but not special treatment under the law. I cant get pregnant, so I'll be damned if I'll support a person who thinks their condition grants them rights that are denied to me. I'd love to be able to tell all traffic police to piss off, but since society wouldn't work out so well if everyone did so.. Ignorance of the law, being female, or being pregnant is no excuse for noncompliance.

I don't think they should have used a taser, but I also don't know how they should have proceeded. Law enforcement is a difficult and thankless job that, much like the military, you hear more about their mistakes than their positive encounters.

Pretty much my point in a nutshell. Civil disobedience to me though isn't giving **** to a police officer because you didn't feel like paying for a ticket, to me it's more holding up a sign, boycotting, protesting(even the ones that annoy me) peacefully, and the masterful tactics of the civil rights movement under Dr. King like the sit ins, and other non-violent, non-aggressive protests. The minute though that a protest gets aggressive don't be surprised when the officers fight back.

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Ikari said:
Nothing was taken out of context. You tried to say that I was claiming cops would let people die. Additionally, you have been continually trying to use this "personal experience" crap to diminish the ultimate premise that one is better off relying on themselves to protect themselves than they are to rely on the police. Your addition, in an attempt to diminish effect, is deflection and is utterly besides the point as the personal experience you keep claiming is not necessary for analysis of the entire system.

I don't have to stick my dick in the fire to know that fire is hot.

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
I asked a direct question to which there was only one answer, based upon your personal experience. If you did not want to answer the question you had several options: you could have ignored me, asked me to clarify, ask me to rephrase etc. What you chose to do was go off into many different areas for which I had no interest in joining you.

Again the question:

funny that I gave you two examples from my personal experience and you ignored them both. this proves you are not interested in debating the original issue, but merely wish to deflect from your own misunderstanding and failure in order to play a childish game of "gotcha"

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Lachean said:
I'm sympathetic to civil disobedience, and of course abhor the use of a taser on a non-violent and pregnant woman.

However, no one is above the law and her pregnancy changes nothing. All it does is break our hearts a little and demonize the police, and I know she won the case, but TBH would we even be talking about this person if she was not pregnant, or female?

You should behave in a manner that if everyone did, everything would work out. Last I checked pregnancy gets your ALOT of consideration in America, but not special treatment under the law. I cant get pregnant, so I'll be damned if I'll support a person who thinks their condition grants them rights that are denied to me. I'd love to be able to tell all traffic police to piss off, but since society wouldn't work out so well if everyone did so.. Ignorance of the law, being female, or being pregnant is no excuse for noncompliance.

I don't think they should have used a taser, but I also don't know how they should have proceeded. Law enforcement is a difficult and thankless job that, much like the military, you hear more about their mistakes than their positive encounters.

she was being an ass, plain and simple, thought being pregnant gave her an "out" to act any way she wanted. she's lucky they tazed her instead of dragging her stupid ass out of the car by her freakin hair.

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
I never said it did. I simply asked you about your personal experience...:lol:

what a dishonest load of crap. you asked about his personal experience in order to imply that if he had none his argument was invalid. don't try to play bull**** semantics games.

Connery · May 25, 2012

OscarB63 said:
funny that I gave you two examples from my personal experience and you ignored them both. this proves you are not interested in debating the original issue, but merely wish to deflect from your own misunderstanding and failure in order to play a childish game of "gotcha"

OscarB63 said:
what a dishonest load of crap. you asked about his personal experience in order to imply that if he had none his argument was invalid. don't try to play bull**** semantics games.

Go back to sleep Oscar or read my posts. I responded....

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
Go back to sleep Oscar or read my posts. I responded....

you responded with misdirection and nonsense. you tried to play off my first example by foolishly implying that an armed burglar would not try to kill someone who walked in on them committing a crime. you completely ignored the second example.

Connery · May 25, 2012

OscarB63 said:
you responded with misdirection and nonsense. you tried to play off my first example by foolishly implying that an armed burglar would not try to kill someone who walked in on them committing a crime. you completely ignored the second example.

I never said that I said....

Connery said:
How do you know he would have beaten you to death?

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
I never said that I said....

your implication is that he would not have. leave the BS semantics games to thunder...you suck at it.

you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting

Connery · May 25, 2012

OscarB63 said:
your implication is that he would not have. leave the BS semantics games to thunder...you suck at it.

you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting

No it was a simple question.

OscarB63 · May 25, 2012

Connery said:
No it was a simple question.

and you got a simple answer.

Taser Use

Is using a taser to arrest a noncoperative but nonviolent person "excessive force"

Yes, always

Depends, sometimes yes, sometimes no

No, tasers are acceptable if a person is not cooperating

Don't know

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