Texas secession?

haymarket · May 28, 2012

Centinel said:
I'm not sure of your point in stating this obvious fact.

the point is a needed one: REALITY trumps IDEOLOGY every single day of the week.... heck, today is a holiday is maybe twice on holidays.

Now, as you say, the government CAN ignore what the constitution says, but that is a question of CAN, and ignores the question of SHOULD.

Actually - that is NOT my position. The Constitution must be honored and its language obeyed.

Centinel · May 28, 2012

Moot said:
As you can see the federal courts supercede the rights of the states. A state that wanted to secede would need a majority of the people from other states (2/3 of the states) to consent to it's seccession and they have never consented.

But the constitution is clear. There are no prohibitions on a state leaving. Therefore, under the 10th amendment, any state may secede. Remember, powers not prohibited to the states are reserved to the states, which is to say, if the constitution doesn't prohibit a particular state action, then that action is allowed. Can you point me to the section of the constitution that prohibits a state from leaving the union?

Centinel · May 28, 2012

haymarket said:
Actually - that is NOT my position. The Constitution must be honored and its language obeyed.

Good then we agree. And where in the constitution does it say that the states are prohibited from exiting the union?

Moot · May 28, 2012

Quantrill said:
The right of secession was known and accepted at the time of the making of the 1787 Constitution. It was even stated in several of the States ratification documents. Just because the Federal govt. doesn't want it, like it, recognize it, is immaterial. It just means the Fed. govt. is willing to go to war to stop it.

I give. Who?

Quantrill

The states signed a "binding" legal agreement to give sovereignty to the US government over all the states that superceded their sovereignty as individual states. There is nothing in that agreement that gives any state the right to break that agreement without the consent of a 3/4 majority of the other states bound to that agreement.

If you are going by the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions to find the legality of the states right to seccede then you would be mistaken. Even Madison refuted that notion in several letters written during the Nullification crisis.....

The James Madison Papers - Collection Connections - For Teachers (Library of Congress)

Centinel · May 28, 2012

Moot said:
There is nothing in that agreement that gives any state the right to break that agreement without the consent of a 3/4 majority of the other states bound to that agreement.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"

Can you point to any language in the constitution that prohibits states from seceding?

Moot · May 28, 2012

Centinel said:
But the constitution is clear. There are no prohibitions on a state leaving. Therefore, under the 10th amendment, any state may secede. Remember, powers not prohibited to the states are reserved to the states, which is to say, if the constitution doesn't prohibit a particular state action, then that action is allowed. Can you point me to the section of the constitution that prohibits a state from leaving the union?

The Supremacy clause and Article 3 of the Constitution "delegated" to the federal courts the power to interpret the Constitution, not the states. The 10th amendment recognizes the "delegated power" of the federal court and the court has ruled against the states right to secceed. Therefore, the states are "prohibited" from seccession.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Quantrill · May 28, 2012

rocket88 said:
The charge was murder, Treason against Virginia and one other I can't recall right now. Staes Rights, right? State go first crack.

as far as the conspirators, one went stark raving mad, and one fled to Canada. It's on the internet, you tell us. It's not hard, but I'm onmy phone now.

Information taken from "Who was Who in the Civil War" by Stewart Sifakis, p. 602

Gerrit Smith was a wealthy New Yorker and abolitionist. A member of the Kansas Aid Society.

After Harpers Ferry and the Secret Six became known, Smith had a case of temporary insanity.

Later as an independent, he sat in Congress during the War.

Gerrit Smith, accessory to treason and murder against the state of Virginia and the US sat as a congressman.

Quantrill

Centinel · May 28, 2012

Moot said:
The Supremacy clause and Article 3 of the Constitution "delegated" to the federal courts the power to interpret the Constitution, not the states.

Whaaaaa???

The supremacy clause simply states that the constitution is the supreme law of the land.

The 10th amendment recognizes the "delegated power" of the federal court and the court has ruled against the states right to secceed. Therefore, the states are "prohibited" from seccession.

The 10th amendment says that anything that is not prohibited to the states is permitted.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

And where in the constitution does it prohibit the states from seceding?

Quantrill · May 28, 2012

rocket88 said:
The charge was murder, Treason against Virginia and one other I can't recall right now. Staes Rights, right? State go first crack.

as far as the conspirators, one went stark raving mad, and one fled to Canada. It's on the internet, you tell us. It's not hard, but I'm onmy phone now.

Information taken from "Who is Who in the Civil War" by Stewart Sifakis, p.307-308

Thomas Wentworth Higgenson. He was a Mass born reformer and abolitionist. After Harpers Ferry he raised up black troops for the Union Army. He was given command of a clolored regiment. After the War he wrote several books.

So, Thomas Wentworth Higgenson, accessory to treason and murder against the state of Virginia and the US was given postions of authority by the US. And lived out his days as an author.

Quantrill

centrist8491 · May 28, 2012

Absolutely!

centrist8491 · May 28, 2012

Then I can return to Texas where I was born.

Moot · May 28, 2012

Centinel said:
But the constitution is clear. There are no prohibitions on a state leaving. Therefore, under the 10th amendment, any state may secede. Remember, powers not prohibited to the states are reserved to the states, which is to say, if the constitution doesn't prohibit a particular state action, then that action is allowed. Can you point me to the section of the constitution that prohibits a state from leaving the union?

Now you're just being obstinate. The Constitution clearly delegated the power to interpret the Constitution to the federal courts, not the states, not the citizens, and not you. The federal courts interpreted the Constitution and ruled the states do not have the right to secede unless recognized by the US government and the US government has not recognized the states right to secede. Why that is so hard for you to comprehend is beyond me other than you are so vested in a myth perpetuated by belligerents that neither fact or reason can penetrate your brain.

Quantrill · May 28, 2012

rocket88 said:
The charge was murder, Treason against Virginia and one other I can't recall right now. Staes Rights, right? State go first crack.

as far as the conspirators, one went stark raving mad, and one fled to Canada. It's on the internet, you tell us. It's not hard, but I'm onmy phone now.

Information taken from "Who was Who in the Civil War", by Stewart Sifakis, p. 322

Samuel Gridley Howe. He was the husband of Julia Ward Howe and helped co-edit the anti slavery periodical, 'The Commonwealth'.

After Harpers Ferry he fled to Canada denying any knowledge of it. Later returned and was made one of New Englands directors of the United States Sannitary Commission.

So, Samuel Gridley Howe, accessory to treason and murder against the state of Virginia and the US, given postion of authority by the US.

Quantrill

haymarket · May 28, 2012

Centinel said:
Good then we agree. And where in the constitution does it say that the states are prohibited from exiting the union?

It does not say they are prohibited from turning into a giant easter bunny and hopping from moons and planets to the edges of the known universe either.

But they cannot do that.

Either.

beerftw · May 28, 2012

haymarket said:
It does not say they are prohibited from turning into a giant easter bunny and hopping from moons and planets to the edges of the known universe either.

But they cannot do that.

Either.

but if states can defy logic and have scientists magically turn them into easter bunnies,the constitution doesnt stop them,does it??????

rocket88 · May 28, 2012

beerftw said:
but if states can defy logic and have scientists magically turn them into easter bunnies,the constitution doesnt stop them,does it??????

We must amend the Constitution immediately to make sure that States can magically transmogrify into bunnies. Just in case.

Quantrill · May 28, 2012

rocket88 said:
The charge was murder, Treason against Virginia and one other I can't recall right now. Staes Rights, right? State go first crack.

as far as the conspirators, one went stark raving mad, and one fled to Canada. It's on the internet, you tell us. It's not hard, but I'm onmy phone now.

Information taken from "Who was Who in the Civil War" by Stewart Sifakis. p. 489

Theodore Parker. A Unitarian preacher from Mass. and abolitionist. Active in aiding fugitive slaves to escape and helped capture some who were beign already transported back to slavery. In 1859 he went abroad for medical reasons and died.

Theodore Parker, accessory to treason and murder against the state of Virginia and the U.S. Missed out on promotion due to his death.

Quantrill

Centinel · May 28, 2012

Moot said:
Now you're just being obstinate. The Constitution clearly delegated the power to interpret the Constitution to the federal courts, not the states, not the citizens, and not you.

Well, I'm not sure what text you're citing that gives the federal courts a monopoly to interpret the constitution. That must be another on of those clauses I can never find in the constitution.

The federal courts interpreted the Constitution and ruled the states do not have the right to secede unless recognized by the US government and the US government has not recognized the states right to secede.

Yes, this is exactly the decision with which I disagree. Since there is no prohibition against any state leaving, I cannot understand how the court would determine that a state leaving is prohibited, especially in light of the 10th amendment that clearly states that whatever is not specifically prohibited is permitted.

Why that is so hard for you to comprehend is beyond me other than you are so vested in a myth perpetuated by belligerents that neither fact or reason can penetrate your brain.

If we are going to live under a constitutional union, then it is important to understand the rules of that union. I am simply pointing out that the rules do not forbid a state from leaving the union, and nobody has yet pointed to any language in the constitution that would imply that such a restriction exists. Can you show me where the constitution says that a state may not exit the union?

Quantrill · May 28, 2012

rocket88 said:
The charge was murder, Treason against Virginia and one other I can't recall right now. Staes Rights, right? State go first crack.

as far as the conspirators, one went stark raving mad, and one fled to Canada. It's on the internet, you tell us. It's not hard, but I'm onmy phone now.

Information taken from "Who was Who in the Civil War" by Stewart Sifakis, p. 567

Franklin Sanborn. was from New Hampshire but moved to Mass. Became secretary of the Mass. Free Soil Association. After Harpers Ferry he was ordered to give testimony in Washington. He refused and was arrested in early 1860. But he was freed by the courts and mob.

During the war he became editor of 'Boston Commonwealth' and serve on state board of Charities.

Franklin Sanborn, accessory to treason and murder against the state of Virginia and the US. was free to pursue his interests and allowed to serve on a board for charities.

Quantrill

Moot · May 28, 2012

Centinel said:
Well, I'm not sure what text you're citing that gives the federal courts a monopoly to interpret the constitution. That must be another on of those clauses I can never find in the constitution.

For the third time, the Supremacy clause and Article 3 gives the federal courts THE POWER to interpret the constitution.

Yes, this is exactly the decision with which I disagree. Since there is no prohibition against any state leaving, I cannot understand how the court would determine that a state leaving is prohibited, especially in light of the 10th amendment that clearly states that whatever is not specifically prohibited is permitted.

It doesn't matter if you disagree, we are a nation of laws and the constitution gives the court the final say in what is or isn't constitutional.

If we are going to live under a constitutional union, then it is important to understand the rules of that union. I am simply pointing out that the rules do not forbid a state from leaving the union, and nobody has yet pointed to any language in the constitution that would imply that such a restriction exists. Can you show me where the constitution says that a state may not exit the union?

Well, I am simply pointing out to you the rules and the rules say that the courts have the final say in what is or isn't constitutional. So if you want to know what in the constitution the court bases it's rulings on then you have to go to the court cases and read the judges findings.

Centinel · May 28, 2012

haymarket said:
It does not say they are prohibited from turning into a giant easter bunny and hopping from moons and planets to the edges of the known universe either.

But they cannot do that.

Is this your way of arguing that the states are constitutionally prohibited from exiting the union? If so, could you please cite for us the language that prohibits them from doing so?

Henrin · May 28, 2012

haymarket said:
So lets see ..... a two year can figure it out but you cannot explain it yourself.

That is clear.

I enjoy how you wish to pretend to be clueless and then blame me for not bothering to humor you. We both know you understand why we have laws against murder and other similar crimes. Play stupid if you want, but I'm not buying it.

haymarket · May 28, 2012

Centinel said:
Is this your way of arguing that the states are constitutionally prohibited from exiting the union? If so, could you please cite for us the language that prohibits them from doing so?

As I have already told you - there simply is no such power that you are describing.

haymarket · May 28, 2012

Henrin said:
I enjoy how you wish to pretend to be clueless and then blame me for not bothering to humor you. We both know you understand why we have laws against murder and other similar crimes. Play stupid if you want, but I'm not buying it.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Do you?

If you do, why is it that you have such immense difficulty making yourself understood?

Henrin · May 28, 2012

haymarket said:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

Do you?

If you do, why is it that you have such immense difficulty making yourself understood?

Destruction and murder.

You tell me how they are connected. Am I talking to a two year old right now?

Texas secession?

Texas secession?

Anytime they want

Bad times only

No way

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