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Do you believe in God?[W:359]

Do you believe in God?


  • Total voters
    103
Re: Do you believe in God?

Except lots of people are able to be just as happy or happier, do all the same things and not have to rely on social delusion to do it. Christian divorce rates exceed atheist divorce rates, you know. Belief in an imaginary friend doesn't stop Christians from doing anything.



Only if you define "harm" very narrowly. I think it's harmful to believe anything that is not factually true. There are tons of examples of theists of all stripes who do bad things, or allow bad things to be done, because of their beliefs. It's not just killing others.

True enough, but modern churches do generally advocate living a good, upstanding life, doing right by fellow man, being honest, forgiving others, getting and staying married. A belief doesn't have to be true to influence people to do good things.

There are some examples of harm done by organized religion, of course, like the guy who demonstrates at soldier's funerals.. can't think of his name just now, or the radical Islamists who want to go out and slay infidels for Allah, or the fundamentalists who make young girls marry a polygamist against their will.

But, the balance seems to me to be in favor of churches in general.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

True enough, but modern churches do generally advocate living a good, upstanding life, doing right by fellow man, being honest, forgiving others, getting and staying married. A belief doesn't have to be true to influence people to do good things.

But that still doesn't make it a good or worthwhile belief, especially when one can be influenced just as easily to do the same good things, without the false belief.

There are some examples of harm done by organized religion, of course, like the guy who demonstrates at soldier's funerals.. can't think of his name just now, or the radical Islamists who want to go out and slay infidels for Allah, or the fundamentalists who make young girls marry a polygamist against their will.

Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church. Yes, he is a douchebag. However, there are tons of Christians who silently give assent to his message, if not to his means, because they think the Bible teaches that God hates fags. They have been deluded by their beliefs into voting against equal rights for all Americans. They give money to causes which seek to undermine equal rights. These are the same people who, a generation or two ago, did the same thing with regard to interracial marriage. Or a generation or two before that against civil rights. These attitudes are pervasive in the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity. The same is true of fundamentalist sects of Islam, as you noted, but even when it's not preaching violence, you have people like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt trying to pass legislation that says it's okay for husbands to desecrate their dead wives bodies by having sex with them up to 6 hours after death. This is based entirely on religion. It cannot be justified any other way.

But, the balance seems to me to be in favor of churches in general.

No, the balance seems to be in favor of humans. Humans are, in general terms, decent enough. Most won't stab you in the back for your shoes because they recognize the social contract. They just try to justify the social contract with religion. Throw religion entirely out the window and these people are still going to act the same because they are decent people. That's why Steven Weinberg said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Yes, but I am not a great Catholic, and I am not a protestant.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

But that still doesn't make it a good or worthwhile belief, especially when one can be influenced just as easily to do the same good things, without the false belief.


Can they now? That is the real crux of the matter. If it weren't for the churches giving morality the hard sell, would people still act in the same way? If that's true, then organized religion really doesn't do much good at all.

No, actually, I think people tend to listen to preachers that they trust and look up to. Some of them are probably afraid of being judged in the afterlife. Others just see the wisdom in living life unselfishly, doing good to others, forgiving enemies, and so on.

Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church. Yes, he is a douchebag. However, there are tons of Christians who silently give assent to his message, if not to his means, because they think the Bible teaches that God hates fags. They have been deluded by their beliefs into voting against equal rights for all Americans. They give money to causes which seek to undermine equal rights. These are the same people who, a generation or two ago, did the same thing with regard to interracial marriage. Or a generation or two before that against civil rights. These attitudes are pervasive in the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity. The same is true of fundamentalist sects of Islam, as you noted, but even when it's not preaching violence, you have people like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt trying to pass legislation that says it's okay for husbands to desecrate their dead wives bodies by having sex with them up to 6 hours after death. This is based entirely on religion. It cannot be justified any other way.

Phelps, yes, that's the douchbag. So how many religious leaders are like Phelps? How may say it's OK to have sex with your dead wife? That's a new one on me.



No, the balance seems to be in favor of humans. Humans are, in general terms, decent enough. Most won't stab you in the back for your shoes because they recognize the social contract. They just try to justify the social contract with religion. Throw religion entirely out the window and these people are still going to act the same because they are decent people. That's why Steven Weinberg said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

I'm not so sure. Throw religion out the window, and people would still act the same? Some would, some wouldn't There are a lot of examples of people who turned their lives around because of accepting a belief in god/religion. I know several, don't you?
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Can they now? That is the real crux of the matter. If it weren't for the churches giving morality the hard sell, would people still act in the same way? If that's true, then organized religion really doesn't do much good at all.

But people who have never been religious are just as moral as people who have been religious all their lives. Religion doesn't really do anything for morality, except maybe screw people up and make them afraid of their bodies. The non-religious don't go around raping people as a general rule. They don't turn into child molesters. Those are Catholic priests and their molestation is *ENTIRELY* caused by their religious beliefs. If they could just get married and have sex like normal human beings, there would be no need to take their sexual frustration out on the only targets they have available to them: innocent children.

No, actually, I think people tend to listen to preachers that they trust and look up to. Some of them are probably afraid of being judged in the afterlife. Others just see the wisdom in living life unselfishly, doing good to others, forgiving enemies, and so on.

It's funny that when a preacher gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it's usually the congregation that steps up to defend them, not because they agree with what they did, but because they've been trained since early childhood that priests and ministers get to follow different rules because they're "closer to God". We can look at case after case after case where Catholic priests get caught molesting altar boys and they have their congregations standing right behind them to support them.

Yes, there probably is wisdom in some of the things you mentioned, but you don't need religion to do any of that. It can be done entirely secularly.

Phelps, yes, that's the douchbag. So how many religious leaders are like Phelps? How may say it's OK to have sex with your dead wife? That's a new one on me.

It's new. The same law also lowers the legal age for women to get married to 14 and makes it illegal for women to get an education and a job. Really progressive thinkers, those Muslims.

I'm not so sure. Throw religion out the window, and people would still act the same? Some would, some wouldn't There are a lot of examples of people who turned their lives around because of accepting a belief in god/religion. I know several, don't you?

I think pretty much everyone would. Honestly, anyone who is only acting good because they're afraid of some imaginary father figure in the sky punishing them after they die is pretty unstable to begin with. Those people, we need to find and get out of the gene pool as fast as we can.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

But people who have never been religious are just as moral as people who have been religious all their lives. Religion doesn't really do anything for morality, except maybe screw people up and make them afraid of their bodies. The non-religious don't go around raping people as a general rule. They don't turn into child molesters. Those are Catholic priests and their molestation is *ENTIRELY* caused by their religious beliefs. If they could just get married and have sex like normal human beings, there would be no need to take their sexual frustration out on the only targets they have available to them: innocent children.



It's funny that when a preacher gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it's usually the congregation that steps up to defend them, not because they agree with what they did, but because they've been trained since early childhood that priests and ministers get to follow different rules because they're "closer to God". We can look at case after case after case where Catholic priests get caught molesting altar boys and they have their congregations standing right behind them to support them.

Yes, there probably is wisdom in some of the things you mentioned, but you don't need religion to do any of that. It can be done entirely secularly.



It's new. The same law also lowers the legal age for women to get married to 14 and makes it illegal for women to get an education and a job. Really progressive thinkers, those Muslims.



I think pretty much everyone would. Honestly, anyone who is only acting good because they're afraid of some imaginary father figure in the sky punishing them after they die is pretty unstable to begin with. Those people, we need to find and get out of the gene pool as fast as we can.

even if god didnt promise us heaven ,i would still believe in him..
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

even if god didnt promise us heaven ,i would still believe in him..

We already know you don't give a damn if what you believe is right or wrong, so why should we care?
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

But people who have never been religious are just as moral as people who have been religious all their lives. Religion doesn't really do anything for morality, except maybe screw people up and make them afraid of their bodies. The non-religious don't go around raping people as a general rule. They don't turn into child molesters. Those are Catholic priests and their molestation is *ENTIRELY* caused by their religious beliefs. If they could just get married and have sex like normal human beings, there would be no need to take their sexual frustration out on the only targets they have available to them: innocent children.

Are priests really more likely to be child sexual abusers? Intuitively, it would seem so, from the reports and the fact that they take a vow of celibacy. Who, after all, would want to give up having sex unless they had some hangups of their own? It doesn't seem to be so, however:

In a statement read out by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in September 2009, the Holy See stated "We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases", adding that this figure was comparable with that of other groups and denominations.[6] A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse by Dr. Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University states that "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (and mostly in the 1960s and 1970s) have had a sexual experience with a minor" which "is consistent with male clergy from other religious traditions and is significantly lower than the general adult male population which may double these numbers".[7][8] Additionally, according to Newsweek magazine, the figure in the Catholic Church is similar to that in the rest of the adult population.[9]

Actually, I made some statements earlier about celibacy attracting child molesters, and was countered with a similar statistic. Surprised? I know I was.


It's funny that when a preacher gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it's usually the congregation that steps up to defend them, not because they agree with what they did, but because they've been trained since early childhood that priests and ministers get to follow different rules because they're "closer to God". We can look at case after case after case where Catholic priests get caught molesting altar boys and they have their congregations standing right behind them to support them.

Follow different rules? I think most people expect more of a religious leader than other people. Those expectations aren't always met, of course, but I really don't believe we tend to forgive religious leaders of actions we'd condemn on others.


Yes, there probably is wisdom in some of the things you mentioned, but you don't need religion to do any of that. It can be done entirely secularly.

It can be, no doubt. Whether it is as likely to be done secularly as in a religious setting is highly debatable.

It's new. The same law also lowers the legal age for women to get married to 14 and makes it illegal for women to get an education and a job. Really progressive thinkers, those Muslims.

But are the Muslim extremists really the rule, or are they the exception?

I think pretty much everyone would. Honestly, anyone who is only acting good because they're afraid of some imaginary father figure in the sky punishing them after they die is pretty unstable to begin with. Those people, we need to find and get out of the gene pool as fast as we can.

But people who are taught service to fellow man and devotion to family are more likely to live those principles than those who are not. Sure, non religious people can do the same thing, but it seems to me that hearing people you respect espousing and living those principles is a positive influence on most of us.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

I don't have to, any more than I have to prove there are no unicorns. You're the one making the claim, it rests entirely on your shoulders to prove your claim is true.

Until you can do that, there's no obligation to take your claim seriously.

What claim? That post was my first in this thread. I've made no claims here.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Are priests really more likely to be child sexual abusers? Intuitively, it would seem so, from the reports and the fact that they take a vow of celibacy. Who, after all, would want to give up having sex unless they had some hangups of their own? It doesn't seem to be so, however:

Actually, if we really study the Catholic abuse cases, we do find some nasty data. In her foreword, the lawyer, Sylvia Demerest cites a 1995 survey of 19,000 treating professionals, funded by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect. The study found that in the US, 94% of abuses by religious authorities were sexual in nature. Over half of these cases (54%) involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even though Roman Catholics comprise only 25% of the United States population.

"The problem is not just with the fraction of priests who molests youngsters, but in an ecclesiastical power structure which harbours pedophiles, conceals other sexual behaviour patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity and counterattack against the victims."
Joughin, M. 'Church response to the sex abuse priest', In Fidelity, No.8. September 1995, p. 1.

The problem is, the 2% figure is just a guess, nobody really knows how many priests molest and most of the data comes straight from the RCC, which has every reason to lie about it. The fact is, it's been official church doctrine to hide pedophile priests and deflect police investigations. It's only been in the last couple of years that they've been forced to change, due to legal and public pressure, and start cooperating with the police. They've lost millions upon millions of dollars and I don't remotely think they're through hemorrhaging cash yet. They've had diocese go bankrupt with all the money paid out on these sex abuse cases. It depends on who you ask as to how many abuse:

Philip Jenkins, is a professor of history and religious studies at Penn State University, and has written a book on the topic. He estimates that 2% of priests sexually abuse youths and children.

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. 4% of priests abuse teens, aged 13 to 17; 2% abuse pre-pubescent children.

A survey of child and youth sexual abuse within the church issued in 2004-FEB estimates that 4% of the 110,000 priests who served between 1950 and 2002 were abusive.

We'll likely never know how many pedophile priests there are and we do know that this problem is not limited to the Catholic religion, members of all ministries have just as many problems keeping their hands out of the cookie jar. The problem is, these people are authority figures, routinely given unsupervised access to children and their parents are taught that they are direct conduits and authorities on God and his desires. That makes them all the more dangerous when they do go bad, especially given the unnatural restrictions on sexual activities that they're supposed to sign on to.

Follow different rules? I think most people expect more of a religious leader than other people. Those expectations aren't always met, of course, but I really don't believe we tend to forgive religious leaders of actions we'd condemn on others.

Yet we don't see that. In case after case of Catholic sex abuse, we see parishioners coming to the defense of the priest. It very well may be that they are defending their church and religion because they do not want to be tainted by the social stigma and therefore they refuse to believe that the person they've trusted could possibly have done anything wrong. That's very, very common across the board in abuse cases. Look at spousal abuse, where the abused woman is convinced that she deserves what happens and her husband cannot possibly do any wrong. It's dangerous thinking.

It can be, no doubt. Whether it is as likely to be done secularly as in a religious setting is highly debatable.

Why couldn't it be? There are examples all over the place of just that happening. The problem is, far too many people treat weakness as an excuse. These poor people, they're too weak to stand on their own feet and be responsible for themselves! They need a crutch! No, they don't need one, they want one. They're being given carte blanche permission by society to be weak, ignorant and helpless. They can get up and do it themselves, they can accept reality as it actually is, it's just too emotionally difficult so they don't bother trying. When you lower the standards, you harm everyone.

But are the Muslim extremists really the rule, or are they the exception?

It's the government of Egypt. These are the same kinds of rules that exist in many Muslim countries. Do you want to think all of these governments are extremist, or are they representative of Sharia law?

But people who are taught service to fellow man and devotion to family are more likely to live those principles than those who are not. Sure, non religious people can do the same thing, but it seems to me that hearing people you respect espousing and living those principles is a positive influence on most of us.

Just as many religious people are taught that God will take care of things, so don't bother trying. Some of the most damaging advice in the New Testament comes in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus supposedly said not to worry about tomorrow, God will provide. Most of the lessons that people get taught aren't religious, they're social. There's no reason to think that two people taught the same lesson, one from a secular standpoint and one from a religious standpoint, won't turn out exactly the same way. In fact, I'd argue that the secular standpoint is much stronger because it doesn't teach reliance on fantasy. It's not based on fear and punishment. If you're only being a decent person because you're afraid you're going to roast in a lake of fire after you die, you're not really a decent person, are you?
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Actually, if we really study the Catholic abuse cases, we do find some nasty data. In her foreword, the lawyer, Sylvia Demerest cites a 1995 survey of 19,000 treating professionals, funded by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect. The study found that in the US, 94% of abuses by religious authorities were sexual in nature. Over half of these cases (54%) involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even though Roman Catholics comprise only 25% of the United States population.

"The problem is not just with the fraction of priests who molests youngsters, but in an ecclesiastical power structure which harbours pedophiles, conceals other sexual behaviour patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity and counterattack against the victims."
Joughin, M. 'Church response to the sex abuse priest', In Fidelity, No.8. September 1995, p. 1.

The problem is, the 2% figure is just a guess, nobody really knows how many priests molest and most of the data comes straight from the RCC, which has every reason to lie about it. The fact is, it's been official church doctrine to hide pedophile priests and deflect police investigations. It's only been in the last couple of years that they've been forced to change, due to legal and public pressure, and start cooperating with the police. They've lost millions upon millions of dollars and I don't remotely think they're through hemorrhaging cash yet. They've had diocese go bankrupt with all the money paid out on these sex abuse cases. It depends on who you ask as to how many abuse:

Philip Jenkins, is a professor of history and religious studies at Penn State University, and has written a book on the topic. He estimates that 2% of priests sexually abuse youths and children.

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. 4% of priests abuse teens, aged 13 to 17; 2% abuse pre-pubescent children.

A survey of child and youth sexual abuse within the church issued in 2004-FEB estimates that 4% of the 110,000 priests who served between 1950 and 2002 were abusive.

We'll likely never know how many pedophile priests there are and we do know that this problem is not limited to the Catholic religion, members of all ministries have just as many problems keeping their hands out of the cookie jar. The problem is, these people are authority figures, routinely given unsupervised access to children and their parents are taught that they are direct conduits and authorities on God and his desires. That makes them all the more dangerous when they do go bad, especially given the unnatural restrictions on sexual activities that they're supposed to sign on to.

The church does have a disturbing history of covering up priestly pedophilia, no doubt about it. I still have a problem with the idea that pedophilia is what defines the Catholic church, however. There is also such a thing as Catholic charity. There are the teachings of how we should live our lives and how we should treat our fellow men. If everyone were to treat others as they want to be treated, the world would be a vastly different place than it is now.

The early Christian church also had a bad habit of persecuting Jews. Does that define the modern church?

Yet we don't see that. In case after case of Catholic sex abuse, we see parishioners coming to the defense of the priest. It very well may be that they are defending their church and religion because they do not want to be tainted by the social stigma and therefore they refuse to believe that the person they've trusted could possibly have done anything wrong. That's very, very common across the board in abuse cases. Look at spousal abuse, where the abused woman is convinced that she deserves what happens and her husband cannot possibly do any wrong. It's dangerous thinking.

Of course they're coming to the defense of their religion. It must be difficult to accept that someone in whom you have trust has violated that trust, but it does happen.

I'm not sure just what abusive spouses have to do with any of this.

Why couldn't it be? There are examples all over the place of just that happening. The problem is, far too many people treat weakness as an excuse. These poor people, they're too weak to stand on their own feet and be responsible for themselves! They need a crutch! No, they don't need one, they want one. They're being given carte blanche permission by society to be weak, ignorant and helpless. They can get up and do it themselves, they can accept reality as it actually is, it's just too emotionally difficult so they don't bother trying. When you lower the standards, you harm everyone.

Most of us do need a crutch from time to time. How easy is it to deal with the death of a loved one if you don't have someone to reassure you that there is something beyond this life? How easy is it to change your own life if you truly believe that there is no purpose beyond it? How easy is it to accept that you have some worth as a human being if you're simply a cosmic accident and your life has no purpose?

It's the government of Egypt. These are the same kinds of rules that exist in many Muslim countries. Do you want to think all of these governments are extremist, or are they representative of Sharia law?

People in the Middle East in general do need to separate church and state if they're ever to be free. I'd hesitate to say that the Islamic extremists are in power in the entire area, however. The Taliban are just a small group, not representative of Islam.

Just as many religious people are taught that God will take care of things, so don't bother trying.


Some of the most damaging advice in the New Testament comes in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus supposedly said not to worry about tomorrow, God will provide. Most of the lessons that people get taught aren't religious, they're social. There's no reason to think that two people taught the same lesson, one from a secular standpoint and one from a religious standpoint, won't turn out exactly the same way. In fact, I'd argue that the secular standpoint is much stronger because it doesn't teach reliance on fantasy. It's not based on fear and punishment. If you're only being a decent person because you're afraid you're going to roast in a lake of fire after you die, you're not really a decent person, are you?


God helps those who help themselves is a major tenant of Christian religions.

So, what is the secular argument for living an upright and moral life?
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Interesting: a simple black and white question - goes astray.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Exactly I truly believe only people who are members of DP should be allowed to vote in polls.....You might see a whole different total.

By the way welcome to DP we always can use another Conservative to fight the evils of Liberalism.

I believe you should be able to answer the question I posed several pages back: Homosexuality isn't in the 10 C. Does that mean God gave gays a pass? It obviously isn't a big Biblical sin compared to the 10 C.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Actually, if we really study the Catholic abuse cases, we do find some nasty data. In her foreword, the lawyer, Sylvia Demerest cites a 1995 survey of 19,000 treating professionals, funded by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect. The study found that in the US, 94% of abuses by religious authorities were sexual in nature. Over half of these cases (54%) involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even though Roman Catholics comprise only 25% of the United States population.

"The problem is not just with the fraction of priests who molests youngsters, but in an ecclesiastical power structure which harbours pedophiles, conceals other sexual behaviour patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity and counterattack against the victims."
Joughin, M. 'Church response to the sex abuse priest', In Fidelity, No.8. September 1995, p. 1.

The problem is, the 2% figure is just a guess, nobody really knows how many priests molest and most of the data comes straight from the RCC, which has every reason to lie about it. The fact is, it's been official church doctrine to hide pedophile priests and deflect police investigations. It's only been in the last couple of years that they've been forced to change, due to legal and public pressure, and start cooperating with the police. They've lost millions upon millions of dollars and I don't remotely think they're through hemorrhaging cash yet. They've had diocese go bankrupt with all the money paid out on these sex abuse cases. It depends on who you ask as to how many abuse:

Philip Jenkins, is a professor of history and religious studies at Penn State University, and has written a book on the topic. He estimates that 2% of priests sexually abuse youths and children.

Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. 4% of priests abuse teens, aged 13 to 17; 2% abuse pre-pubescent children.

A survey of child and youth sexual abuse within the church issued in 2004-FEB estimates that 4% of the 110,000 priests who served between 1950 and 2002 were abusive.

We'll likely never know how many pedophile priests there are and we do know that this problem is not limited to the Catholic religion, members of all ministries have just as many problems keeping their hands out of the cookie jar. The problem is, these people are authority figures, routinely given unsupervised access to children and their parents are taught that they are direct conduits and authorities on God and his desires. That makes them all the more dangerous when they do go bad, especially given the unnatural restrictions on sexual activities that they're supposed to sign on to.



Yet we don't see that. In case after case of Catholic sex abuse, we see parishioners coming to the defense of the priest. It very well may be that they are defending their church and religion because they do not want to be tainted by the social stigma and therefore they refuse to believe that the person they've trusted could possibly have done anything wrong. That's very, very common across the board in abuse cases. Look at spousal abuse, where the abused woman is convinced that she deserves what happens and her husband cannot possibly do any wrong. It's dangerous thinking.



Why couldn't it be? There are examples all over the place of just that happening. The problem is, far too many people treat weakness as an excuse. These poor people, they're too weak to stand on their own feet and be responsible for themselves! They need a crutch! No, they don't need one, they want one. They're being given carte blanche permission by society to be weak, ignorant and helpless. They can get up and do it themselves, they can accept reality as it actually is, it's just too emotionally difficult so they don't bother trying. When you lower the standards, you harm everyone.



It's the government of Egypt. These are the same kinds of rules that exist in many Muslim countries. Do you want to think all of these governments are extremist, or are they representative of Sharia law?



Just as many religious people are taught that God will take care of things, so don't bother trying. Some of the most damaging advice in the New Testament comes in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus supposedly said not to worry about tomorrow, God will provide. Most of the lessons that people get taught aren't religious, they're social. There's no reason to think that two people taught the same lesson, one from a secular standpoint and one from a religious standpoint, won't turn out exactly the same way. In fact, I'd argue that the secular standpoint is much stronger because it doesn't teach reliance on fantasy. It's not based on fear and punishment. If you're only being a decent person because you're afraid you're going to roast in a lake of fire after you die, you're not really a decent person, are you?

You make a compelling argument for women priests. Don't hold your breath, however.

I don't disagree with the research you've posted, but I would say that it incorrect to compare pedophile data between the Roman Catholic Church and most or perhaps any Protestant denomination. The RC Church has a hierarchy that is quiet different from Southern Baptists, for example. By comparison the Southern Baptist clergy don't have much of an institutional hierarchy. As such there is no comparative reporting structure. A Youth Minister at the 1st Baptist Church in Dirt Squat, Kansas who is discovered to have sexually assaulted young boys will be dealt with locally. There is no institutional reporting structure compared to the Roman Catholic Church in Dirt Squat, Kansas.

It is not my purpose to compare faiths. Both structures have their advantages and disadvantages. I would not argue in the least that the reporting structure in the Catholic Church obviously failed all the way back to Rome. Compared to what? We can't know. There aren't comparative hierarchies and inherent expectations of reporting in Protestant denominations. I would submit - without proof - that instances of sexual abuse within the Protestant denominations are actually higher than the data suggests. At the same time, I would suggest that even though clerical pedophilia is higher than reported among Protestant denominations, the comparative data, if true data could be collected, would continue to show a greater preponderance of pedophilia in the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

GOD-FlyingSpaghettiMonster+copy.jpg
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

Yes, I do believe in a Higher Power or God. In fact I believe in more than one different vision of The Diety.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

The church does have a disturbing history of covering up priestly pedophilia, no doubt about it. I still have a problem with the idea that pedophilia is what defines the Catholic church, however. There is also such a thing as Catholic charity. There are the teachings of how we should live our lives and how we should treat our fellow men. If everyone were to treat others as they want to be treated, the world would be a vastly different place than it is now.

The early Christian church also had a bad habit of persecuting Jews. Does that define the modern church?

Nobody ever said anything about defining anything. I'd say that the Catholic sex scandals, because they are so pervasive and so recent, would be a lot more defining than something that happened hundreds upon hundreds of years ago, but certainly it isn't all that the RCC is about. Who ever said it was?

Also, on Catholic charity, so what? So they do some good things? The biggest charities around are not religious, they are secular. Take the Red Cross. Entirely secular.

Of course they're coming to the defense of their religion. It must be difficult to accept that someone in whom you have trust has violated that trust, but it does happen.

I'm not sure just what abusive spouses have to do with any of this.

It's the same kind of unhealthy psychology.

Most of us do need a crutch from time to time. How easy is it to deal with the death of a loved one if you don't have someone to reassure you that there is something beyond this life? How easy is it to change your own life if you truly believe that there is no purpose beyond it? How easy is it to accept that you have some worth as a human being if you're simply a cosmic accident and your life has no purpose?

I don't agree that anyone *NEEDS* a crutch, only that they want one. Actually, dealing with death is quite easy if you accept that death is a natural and unchangable part of life. We're all going to die. You. Me. Everyone we love. That's how reality works. Fearing it, hating it, running around crying about it won't change it. Dealing with reality on reality's terms is a part of the maturation process. People who cannot do so or refuse to do so are not mature.

People in the Middle East in general do need to separate church and state if they're ever to be free. I'd hesitate to say that the Islamic extremists are in power in the entire area, however. The Taliban are just a small group, not representative of Islam.

Yet the moderate Muslims provide cover for the extremists, just as the moderate Christians provide cover for the extremist Christians. By arguing that religion deserves extra latitude and additional rights across the board, it lets these monsters operate more freely and openly than they could if we just had societal standards and "religious freedom" didn't get a pass.

God helps those who help themselves is a major tenant of Christian religions.

If that were true, prayer wouldn't be a major tenet of most Christian religions. Calling the God-hotline and asking for everything from lottery numbers to miracles for the cat are ridiculously common.

So, what is the secular argument for living an upright and moral life?

Enlightened self-interest. We know how we'd like to be treated, therefore we reciprocate by treating others the same way. I know that if I'm ever down on my luck, I'd want someone to come to my aid and give me a hand up, therefore when I see someone down on their luck, I give them a hand up if I'm able. Humans are social, communal animals. We require others to survive and thrive. Therefore we must work cooperatively to see to the success of the group as it also ensures our own success. It's actually the exact same thing that the religious do, the religious just misattribute their reasons for doing so.
 
Re: Do you believe in God?

What do you conceive her to be like?

I don't believe The Diety has a gender. I see The Diety like a huge diamond with an incredibly bright light at its center. Every different pantheon in human history is simply a series of facets of that diamond; just like you see light differently through a prism at different angles.
 
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