• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What is the biggest problem facing humanity?

Which of these would do the most good for the world?

  • Providing everyone in the world with access to information and communication (e.g. the internet)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Developing an effective, efficient transportation infrastructure in all parts of the world

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    62
Overpopulation... by FAR the biggest problem.

:roll:

1. If every man woman and child on the planet woke up tomorrow and found themselves living in an American suburb, that suburb would take up.... Texas, and Oklahoma.

2. We could literally feed the entire world off of the food produced just in the United States.

3. Declining birthrates over the past 5-6 decades in China, Japan, Russia, and the West mean that we are headed into an era where many of our largest nations will see declining populations.


:roll: Malthus is no more right in the 21st Century than he was in the 20th or the 19th.
 
Without peace, stability and safety, none of the other things could ever be provided or accomplished. That has to be the beginning before anything else can be done on a global basis.
I'll go with this one if the peace is truly universal, e.g. people of one religion and those of another in one city accepting each other peacefully and men not raping women.
 
:roll:

1. If every man woman and child on the planet woke up tomorrow and found themselves living in an American suburb, that suburb would take up.... Texas, and Oklahoma.

2. We could literally feed the entire world off of the food produced just in the United States.

3. Declining birthrates over the past 5-6 decades in China, Japan, Russia, and the West mean that we are headed into an era where many of our largest nations will see declining populations.


:roll: Malthus is no more right in the 21st Century than he was in the 20th or the 19th.

The problem with overpopulation is in its increased energy consumption demands.
 
Wow! I actually did know she wasn't happy with them but I did not know she despised them! Thanks for the link. :)

Regardless of her feelings for them, it doesn't stop the Libertarians from admiring her works and, as she herself put it, plagiarizing her ideas.

Don't tell that to Empirica though, she thinks Ayn Rand "only" disliked Libertarians because they were harmful for capitalism.
 
The problem with overpopulation is in its increased energy consumption demands.

:roll:


There is more oil in the Rocky Mountains alone than there is in Saudi Arabia.

Every Year the amount of oil we can access increases. Ditto for Natural Gas. Ditto for all those "alternatives" folks are working on. The supply of energy total is not a concern for the simple enough reason that it is limited only by human ingenuity.
 
:roll:


There is more oil in the Rocky Mountains alone than there is in Saudi Arabia.

Every Year the amount of oil we can access increases. Ditto for Natural Gas. Ditto for all those "alternatives" folks are working on. The supply of energy total is not a concern for the simple enough reason that it is limited only by human ingenuity.

And the EPA. ;)
 
Hey I know, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that the new Malthusianism is based on energy consumption and not wages.
 
It's not really that it's overpopulated, but that we have pulled all the natural stops to overpopulation- some through technology, and others through dominance by emotions. It's not that these emotional motives are bad, it's just that they tend to ignore the reality of limited resources.

Agreed. Overpopulation is not an issue if technology can be used effectively but I simply DO NOT see that happening. With fragmented governments and racism and all the other issues out there it makes overpopulation and the pollution attributed to it a massive and real issue.
 
:roll:
1. If every man woman and child on the planet woke up tomorrow and found themselves living in an American suburb, that suburb would take up.... Texas, and Oklahoma.

Yeah, if every woman, man and child on the planet found themselves in a suburb, we'd probably need a few more earths to supply them with the amount of **** Americans waste their money on yearly.
 
Yeah, if every woman, man and child on the planet found themselves in a suburb, we'd probably need a few more earths to supply them with the amount of **** Americans waste their money on yearly.

not really. the point was population density. as for consumption, :shrug: production begats production. Your point is a throwaway line of no significance - the notion that we somehow lack the resources to support our populace remains ridiculous.
 
not really.

Considering the US consumes 23% of resources while comprising 5% of the world's population, that's kind of hard to believe.

the point was population density. as for consumption, :shrug: production begats production. Your point is a throwaway line of no significance - the notion that we somehow lack the resources to support our populace remains ridiculous.

How Much Is Left? The Limits of Earth's Resources, Made Interactive: Scientific American

Mankind is consuming 20 per cent more natural resources than the earth can produce, WWF, the conservation group, said in a report published on Thursday.

“We are spending nature's capital faster than it can regenerate”, said Claude Martin, director general of WWF International. “We are running up an ecological debt which we won't be able to pay off unless governments restore the balance between our consumption of natural resources and the earth's ability to renew them.”

Sure it is.

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | The living planet: facts and figures

If current trends continue two planets would be needed by 2050 to meet humanity's demands.

_42234930_eco_foot2_416.gif
 
:roll: no one said we would instantly raise everyone to American levels of consumption with current levels of production.

but hey, if a strawman is all you have to sell, you keep on keepin on ;) :thumbs:
 
:roll: no one said we would instantly raise everyone to American levels of consumption with current levels of production.

No, but you did say:

the notion that we somehow lack the resources to support our populace remains ridiculous.

This is verifiably false.
 
:roll:

1. If every man woman and child on the planet woke up tomorrow and found themselves living in an American suburb, that suburb would take up.... Texas, and Oklahoma.

2. We could literally feed the entire world off of the food produced just in the United States.

3. Declining birthrates over the past 5-6 decades in China, Japan, Russia, and the West mean that we are headed into an era where many of our largest nations will see declining populations.


:roll: Malthus is no more right in the 21st Century than he was in the 20th or the 19th.

Don't get all crazy now... Population will continue to increase regardless as we see the populations of India grow from 1.2 to 1.7 billion by 2050 and Africa continuing its out of control birth rates. China will decrease from 1.4 to 1.3 biollion in that time. The growth of India and the hundreds of millions of gypsies and untouchables is a far greater issue than the decrease of small Western nations in Europe like Holland and even China's is not that great even though it is the largest. We will see an increase of over 2 billion people by 2050 and that increase is happening to the poorest people in some of the worst governed areas of the world.

Overpopulation will lead to untold millions of deaths and pollution that will AND IS affecting others... like us.
 
This is verifiably false.

that is incorrect, as demonstrated by nothing so much as the fact that we are currently supporting our populace. and that is with massive resource wastage in the form of food subsidies.
 
Don't get all crazy now... Population will continue to increase regardless as we see the populations of India grow from 1.2 to 1.7 billion by 2050 and Africa continuing its out of control birth rates.

I hope so. That will mean that those area's will continue to see growth. They have had a rough couple of centuries, and could use it.

We will see an increase of over 2 billion people by 2050 and that increase is happening to the poorest people in some of the worst governed areas of the world.

and?

Overpopulation will lead to untold millions of deaths and pollution that will AND IS affecting others... like us.

this is an unsupported leap.




but I like how you quote my post and then ignore it :).
 
that is incorrect, as demonstrated by nothing so much as the fact that we are currently supporting our populace.

This is like saying you can't drown because you're barely floating. Please get a better argument?
 
I hope so. That will mean that those area's will continue to see growth. They have had a rough couple of centuries, and could use it.



and?



this is an unsupported leap.




but I like how you quote my post and then ignore it :).

And I see that leading towards the deaths of millions that are not able to be supported... and I agreed with your post, I just didn't mention it. ;)
 
This is like saying you can't drown because you're barely floating. Please get a better argument?

barely floating? in the 21st Century we are wealthier than humanity has been at any point in it's existence. we are pulling people out of poverty at the fastest rate in human existence. The US Agricultural Output Alone is capable of feeding the entire world. Texas Alone could feed 3.5 Billion people.

:roll: "Barely Floating". Tell it to the 700 million Indians and Chinese lifted out of poverty in the past couple of decades.



A point for ya'll to consider. No one ever complains about the world being overrun with swedes. Strangely, "overpopulation" always comes down to "too many brown people". Which, given the history of population control / eugenics; isn't terribly surprising.
 
Last edited:
barely floating? in the 21st Century we are wealthier than humanity has been at any point in it's existence.

Meaning what? We're consuming far more than we produce. Here is your source:

This presumed, of course, that the world would be eating its natural biological diet.

....

If the farmers of this country get off the chemical bandwagon and start working for themselves and their consumer clients instead of for the giant chemical companies that have made them their serfs, the health revolution will begin. (Mishandled soil is the first link in the long chain of practices that lead to disease, including degenerative disease.)

....

Mr. Jeavons has contrasted the amount of land required for various types of agriculture based on different consumer diets. The biggest contrast is that one meat eater requires about 22,000 square feet of land for his diet intake whereas a fruitarian/vegetarian requires only 1,400 square feet, only one fifteenth as much land.

Your argument presupposes two things: 1 - We're going to start farming organically, we're not. 2 - We're all going to become vegetarians, we're not. As of right now, we do not produce the amount of food your argument presupposes COULD be farmed. We could, but we're not, we actually have an entirely different context for food production within the US. That you're trying to pass it off as information relevant to the discussion is kind of see through.
 
Last edited:
:doh

okay. we will walk through this slowly.

If we already have the ability to feed the entire populace of the earth based off of a small percentage of arable farmland....

what do you think is the total current agricultural capacity of the planet?



and, more importantly, given the massive increases over the past few decades in capacity, what in the world makes you think that that number is fixed?
 
There will be nothing "gradual" about it. Capital is extremely fungible. Three Fourths of US dollars are held overseas. When it becomes obvious that the US intends to monetize it's debt (aside from all the other problems that will cause), most of those will come crashing home, and they will do so very quickly. The dollar is the note of the Federal Reserve, and there will be a world-wide run on the bank. US Borrowing Rates will soar, and the United States will be caught in an interest rate spiral, meaning that we will have to inflate the monetary supply by 10% of GDP every year just to be able to spend all the money we have promised, and that is before the world dumps the dollar as the reserve and oil currency. We will shift into hyperinflation, and for a short time annualized rates could rise to the triple digits. With no domestic demand for Treasury Bonds that now pay far below inflation, the abilities of the Fed to combat that will be roughly nil. Japan will probably not last as we know her for another 5 years - even at the ridiculously low interest rates provided by her massive domestic savings rate (which we lack), too many are retiring and being replaced by too few workers. That means that there won't be any net domestic savings to keep that rate low. The money will flee from Europe to Japan and the US, and then when it realizes that Japan is a doomed ship, it will flee to the US, and then investors (who no longer trust sovereign debt) will look with a jaundiced eye to see if our downgraded bonds are trustworthy... just as it is becoming obvious that we intend to monetize the debt.

If investors were at all worried about that doomsday possibility - for either the US or Japan - it isn't being reflected in the markets. Furthermore, it has been obvious for over 100 years that the US intends to "monetize the debt" (if you mean not pay it back). The US hasn't actually paid back its debts since Andrew Jackson was president, it just pays the interest and attempts to grow the economy faster than it grows the debt...and that arrangement is OK.

Same goes for Japan. Japan has one of the highest debt-to-GDP rates in the world, yet it can borrow money for less than 1%. Investors are not at all concerned about the security of their investment.

The CBO says that the US Economy will functionally cease to exist in the 2030's under our current path. Frankly, I suspect that is wildly optimistic, as it assumes international stability, strong growth, permanent low treasury rates, and current law reductions in spending. If President Romney serves two terms and fails to structurally change our entitlements, the President that follows him will preside over destruction of the level not wrecked on this nation since the 1860's. I'll be alright - I know how to kill people (with all due respect to Ms Streisand: people who kill people are the most employable people in the world). Many of our fellow Americans whose livelihoods are dependent upon a highly integrated (and frankly fragile) global supply chain and extreme division of labor may find themselves in for a rude surprise.

I think you're grossly overestimating the demographic problems the US faces, and grossly underestimating the role of technology, migration, and economics in solving those problems relatively smoothly.

Forming a United States of Europe would lead to nigh open revolt at home, and impossible economics abroad for the European nations. The last Constitution required enough obvious ignoring-the-peasantry, and sparked enough of a backlash. Attempts to create an USE will not so much pour gasoline as nitroglycerin on the current fires of nationalism/fascism that are starting to smolder on that continent. As far as fiscal integration and carrying everyone else's burden, Germans have been pushed about as far as they are probably willing to go. Splitting up the EU and letting the southern states restructure their debt (read: declare bankruptcy) will happen, and when it does massive amounts of "wealth" will disappear and Europe will be in the mother of all liquidity crises at the same time that she is trying to perform massive structural changes to her currency. Good luck with that. Everyone thinks that the losers will be Greece, maybe Spain and Portugal. In reality, it's going to be Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, probably Ireland, and quite possibly France.

I agree that a USE is certainly not politically possible right now. However, if the current financial crisis gets worse - or if Europe manages to muddle through only to get hit by another financial crisis in 10 years - who knows what will be politically possible? Stranger things have happened.

In any case, I agree that Europe is in a worse economic situation. But this is mostly due to the mismatch between who sets fiscal policy and who sets monetary policy, rather than demographic patterns. True, Europe would be better off with higher birth rates...but this problem is solvable if European nations are willing to allow more immigration and abandon the outdated idea that nations are defined by a shared ethnicity.

Which problem would that be? the problem isn't just that we are shrinking in our populace, it is that our welfare states are built upon a pyramid scheme model, and require steady influx of ever increasing numbers of people paying into the system. But floods of immigrants into a nation with a welfare state don't pay into the system as much as the natives - they disproportionately cost the system. Letting in floods of third-world immigrants without welfare state reform to keep them from becoming net fiscal burdens will exacerbate rather than solve the problem.

There are millions of well-educated people who want to immigrate to the United States, who are turned away every year. And there are hundreds of millions of uneducated but intelligent people who want to immigrate to the United States, who are turned away every year. I'm not saying we need to accept them all, but accepting a great deal more of highly-skilled or highly-intelligent people would be a good place to start. We could even pay for their educations like we do for our own children, in order to produce more qualified American workers and taxpayers.

Ultimately I think that the demographic problems in developed countries are highly exaggerated, in terms of their effect on the global economy (although they'll be bad for some individual nations if no steps are taken to reverse the trend). More people than ever are attaining a level of affluence at which they can help solve global problems, and this trend is unlikely to reverse IMO.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom