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Drunk Drivers

How should drunks be charged?


  • Total voters
    39
Well obviously you aren't interested in discussing the issue in any sort of rational, intelligent way. Sounds like you're looking for an echo chamber to tell you how wonderful your "logical" opinions are. So I'll bow out now. :2wave:

I understand your need to "bow out" as you put it. Your lack of thoughtful responses and knee-jerk reactions to defend drunk drivers is, after all, indefensible. Good night.
 
That's not what i specifically said, but i will agree that someone who repeatedly drives drunk is culpable on that level. You people are excusing drunk drivers who kill because you are claiming that they are not at fault. I am arguing that they are.

Who has said they're not at fault?
 
Bull scat. It’s not an accident at all. If someone drinks, they are still responsible for the result. Everyone with even the slightest amount of intelligence knows that driving under the influence of alcohol risk lives and can and often does cause death and destruction. They have the foreknowledge of those facts. That alone makes them responsible. If they continue to drink and drive, their culpability increases.

Drinking and driving that results in death is rarely the result of intent. I'm not saying they should "get away with it", drunk driving needs to be illegal. They have the face the consequences of their actions. For Christ's sake, it seems like if they aren't charged with first degree murder, then some of y'all think they are not being punished in the least. Proper punishment is necessary yes, but properly constrained as well.

I haven’t noticed reason and logic from the pro-drunk- driving crowd. All I see are excuses.

Perchance you are compromised on this issue in such as way as you will not allow yourself to see the reason and logic and can only resort to lame propaganda.

Fuctional effects? Like- -Killing someone?.. Just as long as they’ve poured some alcohol down their throats, it’s no biggie. The families devastated—nevermind that—god forbid we express concern for actual justice. That is emotional. :roll: Preventing repeat offenses with manslaughter charges is unlikely. You’re making excuses for them. Just like you make excuses for child molesters and other scum. Sad, really. For every low life, dirt bag, people like you make up excuses.

You got data on that or are you just making it up and throwing a tantrum. This is why I say that DUI has been far too emotionalized. Your post is a perfect highlight of it. You can't even rationally argue anymore, all you can do is make appeal to emotion and cry. That's how horrible this debate has become. All of a sudden saying that perhaps we're excessively punishing and now it's "pro-drunk driving" this and "you make excuses for child molesters and other scum" that. Seriously, did you read your own hysterics here? This is precisely what I'm talking about.
 
Who has said they're not at fault?
No one has.


You got data on that or are you just making it up and throwing a tantrum. This is why I say that DUI has been far too emotionalized. Your post is a perfect highlight of it. You can't even rationally argue anymore, all you can do is make appeal to emotion and cry. That's how horrible this debate has become. All of a sudden saying that perhaps we're excessively punishing and now it's "pro-drunk driving" this and "you make excuses for child molesters and other scum" that. Seriously, did you read your own hysterics here? This is precisely what I'm talking about.
Bingo. "Hysterics" is exactly the word I was thinking as well.
 
Perchance you are compromised on this issue in such as way as you will not allow yourself to see the reason and logic and can only resort to lame propaganda. You got data on that or are you just making it up and throwing a tantrum. This is why I say that DUI has been far too emotionalized. Your post is a perfect highlight of it. You can't even rationally argue anymore, all you can do is make appeal to emotion and cry. That's how horrible this debate has become. All of a sudden saying that perhaps we're excessively punishing and now it's "pro-drunk driving" this and "you make excuses for child molesters and other scum" that. Seriously, did you read your own hysterics here? This is precisely what I'm talking about.

Do I have data on what? My argument is that the crime, especially repeated drunk driving resulting in deaths, is premeditated because the person responsible is aware of the consequences of his or her actions BEFORE getting drunk. Therefore, the lame excuse you people are using that drunks don't intend to kill is nonsense. AND YES, you are saying that drunk drivers are not responsible for their actions. You did, afterall, call it an accident. You do know what an accident is, right?

My references to your lack of concern with regard to punishing child molesters is not "hysterics." But nice dodge.
 
Do I have data on what? My argument is that the crime, especially repeated drunk driving resulting in deaths, is premeditated because the person responsible is aware of the consequences of his or her actions BEFORE getting drunk. Therefore, the lame excuse you people are using that drunks don't intend to kill is nonsense. AND YES, you are saying that drunk drivers are not responsible for their actions. You did, afterall, call it an accident. You do know what an accident is, right?

My references to your lack of concern with regard to punishing child molesters is not "hysterics." But nice dodge.

It is hysterics. You're trying to draw a corollary between me saying that punishments for DUI should be consistent with the crime to some idea that I have little to no desire to punish child molesters. Now for the rest of this tripe. Me saying that an accident is an accident does not remove fault. The individual is still accountable for their actions and proper punishment may be handed out. So now that we’ve gotten rid of that lie, we can move on. It is rarely the intent of a drunk driver to get into a wreck and hurt another. Though if you can prove that intent in a court of law, you are more than free to do so. Reckless endangerment and voluntary manslaughter already cover this crime. One could say that a person knows their car itself is a dangerous weapon and not paying attention (whether or not one is under the influence) means intent. Anyone who has gotten into a wreck while putting on makeup, changing the radio station, talking on the phone, etc. could then (under your definition) be guilty of first degree, premeditated murder should they have a wreck which takes the life of another. Of course under those circumstances, it too is an accident as there is no actual intent to harm. But you want to insert it into places where it does not exist; so we can see how far down the rabbit hole this lack of logic goes.

Proper punishment for a crime, not excessive punishment built upon emotional tripe. The abdication of intelligence in this country is quite alarming.
 
Do I have data on what? My argument is that the crime, especially repeated drunk driving resulting in deaths, is premeditated because the person responsible is aware of the consequences of his or her actions BEFORE getting drunk. Therefore, the lame excuse you people are using that drunks don't intend to kill is nonsense. AND YES, you are saying that drunk drivers are not responsible for their actions. You did, afterall, call it an accident. You do know what an accident is, right?

My references to your lack of concern with regard to punishing child molesters is not "hysterics." But nice dodge.

I think your problem is that you wish to legally redefine "premeditation" and "intent". Good luck with that.
 
Well, Hell... I drive drunk almost every day and see nothing wrong with it at all.
 
It is hysterics. You're trying to draw a corollary between me saying that punishments for DUI should be consistent with the crime to some idea that I have little to no desire to punish child molesters.

Reading comprehension is lacking in many of your posts. Here’s what I am saying: Your lax view of drunk driving is in line with your lax view of child molestation. Both positions are utterly absurd. I am not drawing any type of connection between the two crimes. At all.


Now for the rest of this tripe. Me saying that an accident is an accident does not remove fault.

You are saying that these people are unintentionally harming others. If it’s unintentional, there is no fault involved. Fault assumes culpability which you have clearly denied in these cases.

The individual is still accountable for their actions and proper punishment may be handed out. So now that we’ve gotten rid of that lie, we can move on.

There is no lie as you put it. You have argued in this thread that current laws need to be reversed which is idiotic, window-linking nonsense.

It is rarely the intent of a drunk driver to get into a wreck and hurt another.

While drunk, they are obviously in an altered state of mind, but not before getting drunk. This is where intention comes into it. After all, how many times does a person need to make the same mistake before it becomes intentional?

Though if you can prove that intent in a court of law, you are more than free to do so.

Lol I doubt it. There are plenty of morons who think exactly like you. Meanwhile, people keep dying.
Nearly 11,000 people lose their lives each year because of drunk drivers. (according to the CDC) But the current laws need to be reversed according to you. Justice for those whose lives have been destroyed is “emotional tripe” in your opinion.

Reckless endangerment and voluntary manslaughter already cover this crime. One could say that a person knows their car itself is a dangerous weapon and not paying attention (whether or not one is under the influence) means intent. Anyone who has gotten into a wreck while putting on makeup, changing the radio station, talking on the phone, etc. could then (under your definition) be guilty of first degree, premeditated murder should they have a wreck which takes the life of another. Of course under those circumstances, it too is an accident as there is no actual intent to harm. But you want to insert it into places where it does not exist; so we can see how far down the rabbit hole this lack of logic goes.

Repeated offenses by drunk driving do not compare to any of your hyperbolic examples. I doubt you even bothered to stop and consider what I’ve actually proposed.

Proper punishment for a crime, not excessive punishment built upon emotional tripe.

What proper punishment? You haven’t proposed any so far.

The abdication of intelligence in this country is quite alarming.

Yes, your posts are a fine example of that.

I think your problem is that you wish to legally redefine "premeditation" and "intent". Good luck with that.

I think your problem is that you really have no concept of what intent actually entails, nor do you have any real idea of what constitutes justice. It’s easy to pretend that a lighter punishment for drunk drivers will solve the problem when your real issue is how stricter punishments go against your sentiments. Plenty of people in this thread have mentioned that stricter punishments “ruin the lives” of these drunk drivers. This is the real concern for them. The drunks. Victims are apparently not victims—they are just people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Accidents do happen after all.

Well, Hell... I drive drunk almost every day and see nothing wrong with it at all.

Interesting sense of humor. Ha! You’re on a role, Bodhi.
 
As a person who has never had a driver's license, I observe a lot of drivers, those driving me around and those around me. I have seen plenty of people do horribly stupid stuff while driving that could have easily resulted in crashes or death. I have had a bus driver, who was driving the bus I was on, who was reading the newspaper while driving the bus. A cab driver reading a book. Plenty of times I've seen alert drivers have to swerve out of the way of idiots who didn't pay attention or just didn't care about who was around them. Many people should never be allowed to drive a car just because of their particular personality making them much more likely to not pay attention or do stupid things, completely sober. I don't know how many people almost every day I see who block an intersection for at least a few seconds because "hey, I had a yellow light and the traffic might move ahead of me before the other way gets a green light" (many times, it doesn't). Hawaii has to have the worst bus drivers in the country (it may be a policy issue). They constantly run red lights, putting pedestrians in constant danger of being hit by a bus. (We're talking being able to see the walk signal on the other side of the road and the bus plowing through anyway, no chance they could have legitimately claimed they had a yellow light.)

Yet, despite all these reckless things, that are just as capable of resulting in death while driving, we disproportionately punish drunk drivers, no matter what their true impairment or ability to drive is. I'm not one to think driving drunk is good. It certainly isn't. But as others have said, it is better to provide methods of prevention rather than just punishment. If my child was doing something over and over again, I'm not going to just wait for him to do it again and punish him more harshly for doing it. I am going to try to find out why he is doing what he is doing and find alternatives for the behavior. And I also believe there is a difference between driving drunk, driving impaired, and driving after drinking.

We need to revamp the punishment for drunk driving, including an honest assessment of a person's ability to drive, even if they are over the limit, and concentrate on prevention wherever possible. Now, if someone simply refuses to change their ways, despite alternatives being given, then the punishments should become harsher with consecutive violations. They should never though equate to something they are not. You cannot charge a person with murder for just driving drunk. You must have the intent to commit a crime, the action of the crime, and both of those occurring together in order for a crime to legally occur. You can show these things for drunk driving or even for involuntary/vehicular manslaughter, if the person actually kills someone while driving drunk. You most definitely cannot show intent to kill, which would be required for a first-degree murder charge. From what I have read, it seems second-degree would depend on the state, but I don't agree that it should be charged.
 
I think your problem is that you really have no concept of what intent actually entails, nor do you have any real idea of what constitutes justice. It’s easy to pretend that a lighter punishment for drunk drivers will solve the problem when your real issue is how stricter punishments go against your sentiments. Plenty of people in this thread have mentioned that stricter punishments “ruin the lives” of these drunk drivers. This is the real concern for them. The drunks. Victims are apparently not victims—they are just people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Accidents do happen after all.

I'm not the one going uber-emotional about this issue. :shrug: All I'm telling you is that some words have a very specific definition in the legal sense which you seem to refuse to accept. You wish to change those definitions. I don't think that's gonna happen is all. Take it up with the lawyers and judges.
 
I'm not the one going uber-emotional about this issue. :shrug: All I'm telling you is that some words have a very specific definition in the legal sense which you seem to refuse to accept. You wish to change those definitions. I don't think that's gonna happen is all. Take it up with the lawyers and judges.

How do you suppose I am "going uber emotional"? Is that the only come back you people can come up with? This is basically an argument about intent. It's not a matter of "changing definitions." It's a matter of how people interpret those definitions. Semantics.
 
How do you suppose I am "going uber emotional"? Is that the only come back you people can come up with? This is basically an argument about intent. It's not a matter of "changing definitions." It's a matter of how people interpret those definitions. Semantics.

Again, it's not "people", it's the law. Premeditation and intent have legal definitions. I suggest you look at a legal dictionary or talk to a criminal lawyer about it so they can explain it to you.
 
2nd degree. Because it is not generally premeditated (for 1st degree) and manslaughter does not carry enough weight. There are plenty of alternative methods of getting from point A to B even in rural areas (if you have to, sleep it off). Every time someone who is impaired by alcohol gets behind the wheel of a vehicle it becomes a 2000 pound bullet.
 
2nd degree. Because it is not generally premeditated (for 1st degree) and manslaughter does not carry enough weight. There are plenty of alternative methods of getting from point A to B even in rural areas (if you have to, sleep it off). Every time someone who is impaired by alcohol gets behind the wheel of a vehicle it becomes a 2000 pound bullet.
If a drunk climbs in their back seat to sleep it off, should we still arrest them for drunk driving if a LEO finds them this way? Or, should we not because they actually had the presence of mind to NOT drive drunk and chose to sleep it off instead?

It is not unheard of for people to get arrested for drunk driving when they weren't driving at all. Sometimes when they were even purposely intending to not drive.
 
If a drunk climbs in their back seat to sleep it off, should we still arrest them for drunk driving if a LEO finds them this way? Or, should we not because they actually had the presence of mind to NOT drive drunk and chose to sleep it off instead?

It is not unheard of for people to get arrested for drunk driving when they weren't driving at all. Sometimes when they were even purposely intending to not drive.

I think that is an OWI, not a drunk driving. This charge is only upheld if it can be proven that the drunk was in a position of operating the vehicle.
 
I think that is an OWI, not a drunk driving. This charge is only upheld if it can be proven that the drunk was in a position of operating the vehicle.
I have heard what seemed to me to be credible stories... and I acknowledge they are second-hand, and not verified... of people being charged and convicted of DUI while sleeping in a back seat. Even while sleeping in the bed of a pick-up. The rationalization being they intended to drive, but didn't get that far. If true, that's a dangerous presumption for our legal system to take, and for a court of law to accept.

Now, if the person were in the driver's seat, and the keys were in the ignition (or even in the person's hand), then I could see the potential of intent... followed closely by passing out... and I would be open to the idea.
 
being drunk while driving kills the other people and it means it cant be regarded as a simple manslaughter.if you are a conscious citizen you must know you can kill innocent ones if you drive while drunk.
 
being drunk while driving kills the other people and it means it cant be regarded as a simple manslaughter.if you are a conscious citizen you must know you can kill innocent ones if you drive while drunk.

The problem is, most people who drive drunk don't have the sober intent of doing so. I could be wrong though...
 
If a drunk climbs in their back seat to sleep it off, should we still arrest them for drunk driving if a LEO finds them this way? Or, should we not because they actually had the presence of mind to NOT drive drunk and chose to sleep it off instead?

It is not unheard of for people to get arrested for drunk driving when they weren't driving at all. Sometimes when they were even purposely intending to not drive.

I am pretty sure that in California you have to put the key in the ignition in order to be a "drunk driver". At least that is how it was. I had some police follow me and when I got in my car to sleep in the drivers seat they came over. I had the keys on the dash and they said that they would be by later to make sure I was still there. If not they would come to my house and arrest me. At least that is how I remember it.
 
I am pretty sure that in California you have to put the key in the ignition in order to be a "drunk driver". At least that is how it was. I had some police follow me and when I got in my car to sleep in the drivers seat they came over. I had the keys on the dash and they said that they would be by later to make sure I was still there. If not they would come to my house and arrest me. At least that is how I remember it.

But even that doesn't prove that you were planning on driving. What if it is a cold night and you're trying to sleep in the car? You can't have any heat because it looks like you might drive after drinking? That's just not right.
 
But even that doesn't prove that you were planning on driving. What if it is a cold night and you're trying to sleep in the car? You can't have any heat because it looks like you might drive after drinking? That's just not right.

I agree. Sleeping in your car instaed of driving should be seen as a positive...
 
being drunk while driving kills the other people and it means it cant be regarded as a simple manslaughter.if you are a conscious citizen you must know you can kill innocent ones if you drive while drunk.
The same applies to texting, putting on make-up, and anything else you intentionally do behind the wheel that distracts you from driving. I once saw a person talking on the phone and reading documents while driving down the freeway at 65 MPH! I'll take my chances with the drunk driver over that idiot!
 
being drunk while driving kills the other people and it means it cant be regarded as a simple manslaughter.if you are a conscious citizen you must know you can kill innocent ones if you drive while drunk.

You don't need to be drinking and driving to kill someone. How many people are paying attention while driving? They're driving a huge machine, yes? Lots of momentum. You could argue ANY action which leads to substantial distraction should be punished the same. Anything from drinking, to texting, to putting on makeup, etc. UP to 10 grand in total fines, loss of license for what is it 6 months now, possible jail time, lots of community service, classes, therapy, evaluations, etc.

If you are a conscious citizen you MUST know you can kill innocent ones if you drive distracted.
 
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